TP9 vs SD9ve

Ok so I went to the store today and fondled the Tp9 and Sd9ve today and also browsed the other names in stock in my price range. There wasn't anything that anyone else listed.

In the long run I hold both and the tp9 had more heft. Just in case for a second opinion I handed it to Melody who has a small frame and small hands and she looked it over. Said it was fine and you know what it means when women say that. Also my only options were tan and titanium. So I filled out the paperwork for the SD9ev. It's all approved and I go back in 2 days.

One of the reasons I acted so fast is if I spend $350 before tax on whatever I buy with it I also get another $50 gift card at register. I'm not getting a big break on the gun but I can pretend I only paid $280 when all is done.

Guess this is what happens when it snows hard in Wisconsin. Being from northern Michigan when I hear weather advisories it means those scared horrible drivers stay home and I get to hit the stores by myself.
 
So I filled out the paperwork for the SD9ev...

Congratulations! I think you'll be very happy with your purchase. I have a couple different holsters for mine. The ones that fit the M&P 9 and 40 will fit the SD9VE perfectly.

Report back after putting some rounds down-range.
 
So I filled out the paperwork for the SD9ev. It's all approved and I go back in 2 days.

One of the reasons I acted so fast is if I spend $350 before tax on whatever I buy with it I also get another $50 gift card at register. I'm not getting a big break on the gun but I can pretend I only paid $280 when all is done.

I bought one last Friday on sale for $289.99. I spent just over 307 with tax and background check. I could have saved another $10 if I had bought it in early December (but the urge hadn't hit me yet).
 
I Did a report on the SD9VE. Different from the Various other versions. I installed the (then $20) $25 Apex trigger kit and it made a nice range gun for the price. Really best $25 ever spent on guns.

I discovered something about that pistol after about 1,000 rounds. It can be Limp Wristed! The report was done at the 2,000 round mark. The only FTE/FTF were from a repeatable Limpwristing grip. I only got 1 every Mag and a half when trying to repeat the first FTF/FTE. I was using WW if I recall but I don't blame ammo so quickly. Sure some ammo has a rep for not working as well in some guns, but what does it say that some guns can shoot anything without a hiccup ?

My negatives about the grip is that it is a little slick, but fits well, nice angle. A set of the cheap $10-12 Hogue Slip on grips work well.

Enjoy!
 
Picked up the pistol today. Gotta love that 2 day Wisconsin waiting period. I only wish filling out the paperwork didn't feel like taking a test you didn't study for and then having to watch the teacher grade it knowing 1 wrong means all wrong. Apparently the abbreviation for blue eyes is BLU and Blue is unacceptable.

But it's home and mine. I read the pamphlet, cleaned the gun and did a bit of dryfiring. The first trigger pull was the hardest. After a few it got easier.

I just hope I can get to the range sometime soon. To bad it's cold out and that means as much ice fishing as possible till the ice melts.
 
So you are saying DA/SA triggers with decockers are a system for untrained personnel?

There's a reason why the DA/SA systems exists. For untrained personnel, so a round isn't fired accidentally under stress and for some it will allow them to have their finger on the trigger while raising it or to prevent a ND when they shouldn't. Military requirements for a pistol is just that. Many people keep the safeties off their DA/SA handguns or just buy decocker only models. I really like my Beretta Elite, but I hope Beretta makes a regular SAO 92 instead of a special edition model that costs $3,000.

DAO is the same way really. I'd rather have that as long as a DAO trigger is done well like on the new SD9VE or a Beretta 92D as an example. Consistent trigger pull is always better. Oh and don't think I'm knocking DA/SA guns. I've had and still have plenty, but I wish they were SAO or had a well done DAO pull.
 
Safeties (including the DA trigger pull) aren't for "untrained personnel". They are for people of all levels of ability and experience.

I was always of the thought that a consistent trigger pull was always better too. Until I got some time with a DA/SA and found that there are distinct advantages to the operation. Different advantages sure, but they are there all the same.
 
Okay, then change "untrained" to "hardly trained" or for people that more than likely won't practice with their sidearm. I didn't say "safeties" in general either. If a light SAO trigger with a thumb safety or a striker fired gun with no manual safety is fine for everyone then why does the DA/SA mechanism exist?
 
Untrained or hardly trained, whatever you want to use, it's still incorrect. It's a safety like any other. It's a way to get a very light and crisp trigger pull after the initial shot without having a manual safety to manipulate. Langdon, Todd Green, and countless others have written at length on the benefits and draw backs. I would defer to them if you are looking for more detail.
 
Most DA/SA guns do have a safety which is why most prefer the decocker only models. I can shoot them well, but don't see any benefit to them. A trained person should be able to flick off a simple safety to get a consistent SAO pull.

Todd Green has said he's shot countless DA/SA guns. A quick search brought up his comments below.

1. The DA pull is harder to shoot well compared to SFA/SAO/DAO/whatever. I cannot say that's wrong. All else being equal, having an 8-10# first pull is, from a pure performance standpoint, a disadvantage over having a 3-5# first shot. You can train to overcome it -- both IDPA and USPSA have had multiple national titles won with DA/SA guns -- but it does require proper training and as mentioned previously that training can be hard to find even among otherwise well known instructors.

2. The "DA-to-SA transition" is harder to shoot well compared to SFA/SAO/DAO/whatever. Again, I cannot say that's wrong. In fact, in my experience it's actually the first SA shot, not the DA shot, that tends to be the most trouble for DA/SA shooters and especially for experienced DA/SA shooters. Again, it's not massive nor impossible to overcome, but even a small disadvantage that requires dedicated time to answer is still a disadvantage.

3. Shooter needs to remember to decock. I almost hate to list this because I honestly believe it is 100% the fault of the instructor when it happens, but still in fairness it is a step that SFA/DAO guns do not need.

Now for the pro's:

1. Safety coming out of the holster. A DA/SA gun is always ready to fire as soon as the trigger is pulled with no need to disengage a safety (no need... that doesn't prevent some people from carrying safety-on or being mandated to carry that way). But by dint of a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We've lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter SFA triggers and candidly I doubt we'll see the pendulum swing back any time soon. Performance on the square range -- particularly by those folks who don't really know how to shoot a DA/SA well -- is real while responding to an unknown assailant in the dark is, for most folks, merely hypothetical. The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents. So for the most part, I'm barking at the moon on this. I believe it's a huge benefit. When I say it aloud in front of the mirror, there are two of us.

2. Safety going into the holster. While not unique to DA/SA guns, the benefit of having an exposed hammer that can be trapped and controlled during holstering is a significant and demonstrable safety advantage. This is undeniable. I've spent far too much time with far too many departments that have switched from DA/SA guns to SFA guns and seen first hand the result of people who holster too fast with their fingers too close to the trigger, or gear that gets inside the trigger guard, etc. Again, some will argue that it's a training issue and that mistakes are always 100% the operator, but I believe the redundant safety benefit of thumbing the hammer during holstering is huge.

3. DA/SA guns are very shootable with proper instruction and training. As mentioned above, quite a few people have delivered tremendous success with DA/SA guns. While opponents like to harp on the long, heavy first shot they seem to forget about the long string of shorter, light followup shots. Let's compare an average Glock to a typical SIG. The Glock has ~5.5# trigger pull for each shot. The SIG shooter needs to work through a ~9# first shot... and then he's got ~4# trigger pulls until he decocks the gun. With some tuning, the DA pull will still be longer and heavier than the Glock (and thus safer imo) but the SA can easily come down to the 3# range. The first shot is harder, ok. But all the rest are easier.

4. Shooting DA/SA guns trains you to shoot just about any trigger system. I consider this a minor benefit for anyone outside of the professional training realm, but the reality is that if you can master a DA/SA action and maintain your skill level with it, you can pick up just about anything else and shoot it well.

If you read his words, it's about training in order to shoot it well and lots of practice. Many departments and the like use it so there is less likely to be a ND in a high stress situation, because I doubt the departments have highly trained instructors like Todd Green suggests. Most of the people issued one will more than likely not train enough with it, but it will keep the department from getting sued if a ND does damage to someone or something.
He mentions above how it's about a safety when unholstering and getting ready to fire. He sees it as a safety benefit.

I agree that if you can shoot a DA/SA gun well, you can shoot any trigger system well. I shoot DA/SA quite a bit, but I don't feel it's necessary.

He talks about reholstering, but a DA/SA gun still needs to be decocked just like a SAO gun still needs it's thumb safety pushed up.

To be honest I don't see any advantage over a DAO or SAO firearm other than what I've already mentioned. There's a reason why only a small portion of gun companies still produce them. Even Beretta was all about cocked and locked SAO firearms until some military requirements came about.
 
The only reason Todd isn't currently running a TDA is for health reasons. Not sure how recent those comments are but either or, they still ring true.

If you don't see the advantage that's great. For you. And I won't argue. I wouldn't feel comfortable with my SA trigger from my P07 being on a Glock. A gun with a manual safety like a 1911 (or my P07 if I choose), sure. It's a different discipline. But it's still a safety be it a DA trigger or a thumb. Neither is explicitly there for the untrained or hardly trained.
 
Well I'll concede because I don't have anymore to say, but there is a reason why departments choose it and why the military wants it as a requirement and it's not because military personnel and LEOs are highly trained individuals who keep up with training and practice on a regular basis.
 
Most LEO seem to gravitate toward striker fired guns nowadays. I expect the military to as well. Eventually. It's just an easier trigger to become proficient with than a TDA. Especially for shooters who lack training and experience.
 
Okay, then change "untrained" to "hardly trained" or for people that more than likely won't practice with their sidearm.

Again, this argument against DA/SA falls flat, since training and and real world experience (with the pressure caused by threat of loss of life or limb) are two different things.

It also falls flat because there are plenty of folks who are certainly not "untrained" to "hardly trained" who prefer the system, despite access to others (including the previously-mentioned SEALs).


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Again, this argument against DA/SA falls flat, since training and and real world experience (with the pressure caused by threat of loss of life or limb) are two different things.

It also fall flat because there are plenty of folks who are certainly not "untrained" to "hardly trained" who prefer the system, despite access to others (including the previously-mentioned SEALs).

I agree. The decocker was more than likely either a design requirement (especially if it's a govt or military contract that they were fulfulling) or the fact that societies on the other side of the world have different needs/wants/requirements.

Any organized unit can train around a decocking weapon, whether it's a paramilitary force or a gun enthusiast group. I've been around guns since I was 18 (I'll be 47 next month). Decockers have never thrown me for a loop. About the only thing one has to train is the thought process of ensuring the gun is decocked before holstering. Carrying a cocked gun with a sensitive trigger doesn't sit well with many folk, even "trained" ones. Some people say the same thing about automatic transmissions (that they're a crutch)...they've their benefits and it gives people choices to offer different mechanisms. Choice is always better, IMO.
 
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