Today's handgun manufacturers and quality

[marine6680]

Overall, I feel that current tech revolving around machining and otherwise shaping metal, is greatly improved over that of just a couple decades ago... Or sooner.

Meaning the ability to hold tighter tolerances and more consistent parts.

Add that to superior design ability using computer software, that can not only simulate how the parts will fit and function together, but also simulate stress and fatigue of the materials over time.

(All this does require the manufacturer to actually run the machines in a manner conducsive to high precision, and change the cutting heads often enough.)


All this combines so there is much less or even no need of hand fitting.


Any firearms manufacturer that has updated their process in the past 20 years or so should have the ability to make quality products. It's all down to good engineering... Good design and choosing proer materials and specs.

So the parts are made better usually, and if the design is sound, the product should be good.


But this is a double edged sword


The lowered need for hand fitting, means less personal attention is paid to an individual firearm on the production line.

Couple that with the desire to keep costs down, for profit, price point, or both... And you get manufacturers hiring lower skilled labor for their production.

Also changes to design or skipping finishing steps. IE, using polymer where metal used to be, like the 10/22 trigger group, or not tumbling and smoothing parts prior to assembly, causing rough edges and surfaces.

Then a third factor of needing to produce in large quantities... All the machining and assembly takes a good bit of time...


Well it all adds up to a situation where the "lemons" slip out a little easier.


Bruce Grey has been quoted as saying the new Sigs are built better than the old ones. Meaning that the overall design and material quality is better with the modern milled slide Sigs, not necessarily that the production process is also better. (This statement is highly dependent on the accuracy of the person who provided the quote originally)

I have even read many opinions that Colt has greatly improved the quality of their 1911s since switching to modern machines with less hand fitting, over the old equipment/tooling from the early 1900s the were using.

 

[marine6680]

Haycreek...

Sig 1911 mags are not very good. I havr a friend who experienced the same issues. Started using different mags than the included, and the issues stopped.


1911s are regularly said to need a break in, from the high end all the way to the cheapest.

For different reasons each time... From being built extremely tight, to rough parts and assembly...

I personally have not experienced any issues with the new in box mid range 1911s (respected makers in the $800-1200 price range) I have had direct experience with.

 

[adamBomb]

If a gun manufacturer is still in business after a few years they cant have a poor quality control problem unless they have a huge savings/investor. I think a lot of what we hear and expect is due to marketing and hype. All companies have a defect rate. I have no clue what that is for guns but I assume like other manufacturers its between 1-5%. The difference is that some companies have done such a great job at marketing that their defects are blamed on user error, even though the user sends the gun in the company fixes/replaces it. Other gun companies arent so lucky and everyone blames the gun not the user. All gun companies have sold a defect to someone.

 

[BigJimP]

In my view, there are too many models in most of the production mfg's gun lines ( including Springfield, Sig, S&W, Kimber, etc )....to make any meaningful comments about quality trends today../ I think all of the production mfg's put out pretty good guns...and they all put out some stuff that was not well thought out - and probably rushed them to market...in order to keep up with the demads in a given area.

I don't care if you're talking about guns, cars or tools ...if the mfg rushed something to market ...its usually going to be a problem. Being on the "Bleeding Edge" of techonology ...on the newest and greatest often ends badly...and guns are no exception.

I have 5 Sigs ...( pair of 226's, pair of 239's and an X-Five ...) ...and I've never needed to use customer service on any of them...but when I've discussed things like springs, sights, etc..they've always been helpful. I have no reason to whine about Sigs service / and I think Sig sill makes a lot of solid products.
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Of the mfg's you mentioned ...I'd put Sig and HK near the top ...Springfield proably in a distant 3rd...and S&W, Ruger two or three more big leaps down the list...followed somewhere by Kimber. But that's based on my experiences ...and what I see some of my buddies go thru...( not that many guns go to service depts ...even though a dozen of my buddies and I probably have 250 handguns between us...

If you want solid products - and good customer service...consider Wilson Combat...( they're setting a very high standard ! ).

 

[BoogieMan]

Guns today are tighter and overall made with much closer tolerances than ever before. What almost all manufacturers lack is craftsmanship. No one is handling the product until you open the box and go to the range. Cnc machines make the parts with high precision, programming and algorithms within the process change tools and inserts as they wear so that the difference between the first and last part in a run is within a couple thousandths max. I imagine some of the higher end guns have that craftsmanship, but that's only a guess.
As far as the factory customer service. It's going to vary by the individual who picks up the phone. To date the only manufacturer I have dealt with has been kimber. And the experience was better than I would have expected. They sent out a replacement part based upon my word and explanation. Maybe if operator B answered it wouldn't have been as good. We have to understand that many times the CS people we talk to don't consider the guns that we buy any different than someone calling about a blender. Mostly they work a 9-5 job answering phones with no skin in the game.

 

[Skans]

There is no manufacturing process I am familiar with that has a 100% success rate.

On a truly high quality precision machine where I have access to parts; I would gladly take my chances.

For that matter to guarantee a pistol will work perfectly with every type of ammunition, lubricant, and user is no small task and that's what manufacturers have to contend with.

Personally, I don't want any guaranty. Or customer service. It doesn't have to work perfectly with every type of ammunition. I just want access to super-high quality firearms.

We can find a complaint for every manufacturer online, even those commanding premium prices.

I haven't come across a complaint on a any Korth revolvers.

Even if built perfectly, the parts within that pistol will have a useful life and you might still need customer service for maintenance of certain parts.

I do need access to factory parts, I acknowledged this. I don't really equate a place where I can order parts to "customer service". Usually when people complain about customer service, they are talking about having to ship a pistol back to the factory on their dime; having to pay for work to their gun; length of time it takes the factory to fix a gun; rude behavior of a rep who denies a gun for warranty work, etc. I don't want or need any of this! I will gladly take responsibility for fixing my own gun, if it is an exceptional quality arm, and if I have full access to parts.

Heck, I take on this responsibility every time I buy an older model used gun. Anyone who buys a machine gun at 10K plus also assumes this risk.
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[TunnelRat]

Personally, I don't want any guaranty. Or customer service. It doesn't have to work perfectly with every type of ammunition. I just want access to super-high quality firearms.

What exactly is your definition of "super-high quality" then? For most people reliability is the key factor, and working with different ammunition from various manufacturers and of various power factors is certainly part of reliability.

I haven't come across a complaint on a any Korth revolvers.

I had to Google who Korth was. When you're talking very small volume and firearms costing $6,000 for a revolver, then yes maybe "perfection" is possible. But that's not something the average consumer is likely to afford. That said, I'll edit my statement to the following:

We can find a complaint for every major manufacturer online, even some of those commanding premium prices.

I don't want or need any of this! I will gladly take responsibility for fixing my own gun, if it is an exceptional quality arm, and if I have full access to parts.

Not every owner of a firearm has the technical skill to service every part in that firearm. That's reality. Some designs are also such that the factory itself would much rather do certain services themselves (though I imagine you could argue that can be changed). I imagine that if Korth had to do volume of other manufacturers they'd likely have some pistols that needed servicing as well. If all manufacturers produced as small volume as Korth, then there would likely be many Americans that couldn't get access to the guns they want or there would be long waiting lists. Now maybe you don't personally care, but I live in a world where I'm not the only person. It sounds like you have the money to afford the level of quality you desire as is, but using Korth as a baseline is to me being somewhat ignorant of the realities of the market demand for firearms and the limits of manufacturing as they relate to volume.

 

[boatdoc173]

my experienc e is like yours Barry

I have german made Sigs that are awesome and USA made Sigs that fell apart out of the box(grips and rear sights) I guess the cellphone generation doe s not care about the quality of their work. Seems to me that they should--they are getting paid to do a good job. Like auto makers and boat makers, gun makers seem t o have a get it out and fix it later attitude. It seems stupid and wasteful to me (JMHO

 

[Skans]

Tunnelrat, I was just expressing my "wishes" for the type of guns I personally would like to see manufactured. I'm aware that many folks aren't like me and my comments aren't really geared to people who want workable firearms from a company that turns out lemons once in a while but with great customer service. That's mostly what the market provides, so I guess that's what people want and expect, or vice versa.

 

[TunnelRat]

I guess the cellphone generation doe s not care about the quality of their work. Seems to me that they should--they are getting paid to do a good job.

I take a lot of issue with this statement. I'm not sure what you define as "the cellphone generation", but putting all the blame on the workers is ludicrous. I know people that work at SIG. The production quotas they have are nuts and I know guys working 60+ hrs a week to try to meet everything. They aren't paid overly well, they lose overtime privileges any time a mistake is made even if they have an otherwise great record, and the company often cuts any kind of holiday bonuses if they aren't happy enough with the sales quarter (even when sales aren't the direct result of the guys on the CNC machines). In short, they're worked hard and not treated very well. As a result the turnover rate is very high. Then a new group of workers comes in and has to repeat the learning process all over while still under pretty intense demands in terms of production. It's a perpetuating cycle. If SIG wasn't as obsessed with volume then the workers would have more time to closely inspect the products, but they produce or they're shown the door. Corporate policy is, imo, a lot more to blame than the individual worker.

 

[BarryLee]

Like auto makers and boat makers, gun makers seem t o have a get it out and fix it later attitude. It seems stupid and wasteful to me

I think you’ll find that attitudes like these haven’t been widespread in the manufacturing industry since maybe the 1970s if ever. Most companies spend large sums of money to design defect free manufacturing processes. Most errors occur when someone makes a well intentioned decision to deviate from these established processes. It might be to reach a production goal, get an order out to a customer or maybe simply the desire to give employees the weekend off.

 

[barrybenson1776]

From what I'm reading, Sig has a problem with customer service. Since they are generally more expensive than the others we've been focusing on, have a reasonable number of guns with issues, AND poor customer service, I have purchased my last one. If they happen to fix my issue, I'll keep the gun. If not, I'm selling it. Either way, it's been an expensive, hard-learned lesson for me. Sucks for me.

I've heard of Wilson Combat, but never looked into their products until now. I spent some time reading their website, reviews, and forums threads. Wow,they're expensive, but they seem to be the type of company I would appreciate. Not sure how I'm gonna get $3310, but I'm sure gonna try!

 

[rtpzwms]

I wonder for those who bought used Sigs did anyone ever use there Service Plan in the purchase process?
http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomShop/SSP.aspx

I'm not saying it would fix anything just wondering if anyone has used it and would be willing to share the experience. I stumbled across it by accident and I don't own any Sigs to date. I will say it's not easy to find or even where someone would expect to find it.

I have purchased a few firearms but have had no major issues that weren't cleared up by a good cleaning or a ramp polish. I've had very good record to date no doubt considering 1/2 or more are used firearms. I've got Kimbers, HK, Brownings, S&W, Wessons, Fusions and others. I'm thinking I hope my luck keeps up.

 

[hemiram]

I've had warranty work/CS done by Taurus(Almost 40 years ago, and again about 18 months ago), S&W, Colt, EAA, and "FTL"(as in Auto Nine). S&W fixed the problem my 59 had quickly and it was fine from then on. Colt not only didn't fix my Combat Commander's many issues, they scratched it up both times they had it. FTL fixed it both times the Auto Nine went back to them with blown extractors, the first one was when I shot HV ammo in it, but the second time it broke I was using the exact ammo recommended for it. They told me they wouldn't fix it for free the third time, so off it went to the consignment case. Taurus couldn't fix my 809 to be anywhere close to being reliable, but at least they seemed to understand there was something wrong with it. They missed, well, denied the barrel on my Model 83 was seriously messed up, even though a look at the bore showed the rifling was totally screwed up, twice. The second time they sent it back full of lead that had to be pounded out of it. EAA, contrary to many reports I've read over the years, sent me the part I needed without any drama, and they were pleasant on the phone!

 

[Road_Clam]

Having bought a Springfield range officer 9mm I can tell you that like any handgun there will be random problems. Everyone wants a trouble free finely crafted gun for cheap as possible. I'd doesn't happen. From reading experiences over at the 1911 forum most of the budget and mid priced guns mfgs have the "just bang them off the assembly line as fast as possible , then if the customer complaints we will fix it" culture. In this current pre election frantic gun buying environment it's all about just selling them as quickly as possible. Most all the mfgs offer a lifetime warranty but it's not about initial QC quality anymore. I'm even reading situations where S&W performance center guns have to go back for warranty work.

 

[tirod]

In the big picture you will get recommendations from owners who have already purchased guns and experienced a good product.

Unfortunately the general consensus runs about three years late. While any one of the makers may have been putting out a good product, it's going to take time to be assured they still are. Of the ones mentioned as being makers of better guns with less problems, a search of the internet will show they have had some models that set the curve and prevented them from delivering superlative perfection in every case.

You can get an idea of who might rank a little better than the others, but in then long term, ALL gun makers have issues, and you could get one at any time that even they wish they hadn't shipped.

If point of fact, if the gun maker has a Customer Service department at all, it's because they are balancing a lack of high quality in manufacturing against fixing the few troublesome ones - because it's cheaper to do that in the long run.

Sure we'd like to buy a gun that was 100% functional from a maker now and 25 years from now. Reality, tho, intrudes, and it's not going to happen. Look back 25 years and their have been missteps and even stinkers put out on the market by them ALL.

For the OP, sorry, but you can't get what you are looking for. Same with knives, optics, cars, cell phones, ad infinitum, and it's ALWAYS been that way. There is no guarantee and any one of them can fall off the rails. Just one product, that one serial number could be the one -

You get a consensus of what model might be Ok to risk money on and for the most part, not a new model for the first 18 months. That has become accepted and even dogma for acquiring new guns over the last ten years. You wait them out and then decide. Otherwise you could get one of the guns of a much longer list than this: Ruger LCP, recalled, now past it's 2 Gen with a custom trigger. Caracal, off the market. R51, a complete dud. P938, the first 80,000 used the .380 extractor and it doesn't work so well. The early P3AT Keltecs, most sub 4" compact 1911's, and any 3" or less pocket auto may have issues of some kind. Rohrbaugh addressed it up front - they only specified 1 - one - load to work reliably from their guns, and Kahr recommends a 200 round break in.

On the other hand - why do some makers seem to have CS techs with less than accommodating attitudes? The retail public isn't the same as it was 15 years ago, either. A great number of them have the idea that anything they buy, regardless of their ignorance, negligence or abuse, work perfectly to their expectations. No Matter What - or they will complain complain complain until they get to a high enough level to get satisfaction. They learned to do that because they were trained by their parents to do it and have experienced it enough in the retail world to think it works everytime. Well, it doesn't. And when they bump up against a maker who has handled said customers time and time again who patiently explain the reality of the situation, and that their demands are not going to be met, the consumer gets bent out of shape and goes off to black ball them at every opportunity.

Everyone tries to do their best, but nobody guarantees life will be fair. Sometimes we just have to suck it up and move on. Frankly, it's not those of us who got beat up under the stadium bleachers who have a prima donna attitude about having things our way every time. We learned some lessons over it and choose our fights more carefully. It's those who think they can't lose who meet modern America with some unrealistic expectations.

There is no one gunmaker you can exclusively rely on for the next 25 years. It's unrealistic to even ask.

 

[walnut1704]

I'd like to discuss today's production (not custom) gun companies and their quality. Is there one or two that are better on average, than the others? Is there one that is consistently putting out high quality, and if there are problem, has great customer service? Is there one that most agree upon as being really good?

A hard question to answer unless one has personally owned a large enough sample of a single brand to come to a reasonable conclusion. That would be a pretty big number. I can produce testimony from owners of multiple Taurus guns that rarely had a problem, and what little problems they had were fixed promptly and well within, and even exceeded, expectations. There's also lots of one-off horror stories.

It also fails to consider disparate outcomes with any given customer service interaction due entirely to the attitude of the owner trying to make the claim.

If I refused to purchase a brand that I ever had a problem with, I'd be left with precious little to choose from. The best defense is close inspection before purchase, though there are lots of things you're likely not to spot.

I have to say I'm most impressed by Springfield's customer service. More than the excellent service, they actually listened to me when I politely disagreed with their canned answer and they went back for a second look and fixed the problem. Their customer service might be better than their guns, and their guns are pretty good.

It's a crap-shoot. Always has been.

 

[JWT]

I have had great experience with Dan Wesson guns. Currently own three of their 1911s. Had some FTF issue with one and DW responded immediately with a prepaid mailer to return it for repair. Turnaround was very fast and the gun is now trouble free.

My DWs are all excellent in terms of fit tolerances, very tight. They all had great triggers right out of the box. I consider DW quality to be very good in all respects. Likewise the customer service is excellent.