Today's handgun manufacturers and quality

I own a LOT of Rugers and I have used their customer service three times. The experience was perfection itself. The problems were minor and Ruger fixed them right up. I believe that Ruger quality is excellent.

I own numerous S&Ws (not as many as I own Rugers) and they are all superb. No experience with customer service because I have not needed to use it.

Have two Sig P238s. Both are perfect.

Have several Colts. All are perfect.

Have two Dan Wesson .45s. Both are perfect.

My experience with modern day guns has been great. Most or all of the above guns/manufacturers use modern CNC machinery which allows for sky-high quality and very small tolerances.
 
Today I took my Sig M11-A1 to the range and after another 200 rounds, I'm continuing to be very happy with the reliability and accuracy of this one. I can't speak for the quality of newer Sig models in the big picture but I can definitely vouch for this one.
 
That is being over dramatic. A lot of SIG owners have received great service on used SIGs and SIG has been known to do repairs for no charge in some cases depending on what the issue is.

Who at SIG personally told you that they no longer do any work on any used SIG ??

Of course there are exceptions such as a damaged metal frame on an out of warranty SIG where they might not do anything though Bruce Gray is a possibility for that. Otherwise in such a case the owner might part out the internals and slide/barrel of the pistol for sale.

Not that they won't WORK on a used Sig. But there is ZERO warranty on any used Sig. You will pay out of pocket for anything that has to be done.

One of my best friends purchased a 'used' but basically unused P229 Dark Elite about a year and a half ago. It was a 2010 production model, but appeared to have fired a maximum of 200 rounds or so. Virtually zero wear whatsoever.

After putting about 5k rounds through the gun over the course of a year, it started to develop several spots of unusual wear on the frame rails. Like shaving the aluminum where it was jagged and will catch your finger nail if dragged across.

He contacted Sig to report the issue, first they said it was normal. When he disagreed and explained that he owned numerous Sigs with thousands of rounds through them and this was not the normal smoothing of the rails, it was actually removing metal, they asked for photos. Sent the photos. No response. Called back to ask the status, they said they didn't have the photos. Sent the photos again. No response. Called back again to check. They finally say the gunsmith looked at the photos and said there was no issue, but if you want to pay $55 to ship the pistol, plus inspection fee, we'll look at it... but you bought it used and it is not covered under warranty.

Since it sounded like this was a losing scenario, he contacted Bruce Gray and sent the gun to him for examination. Bruce looked at the gun and said the slide was out of spec from the factory and that Sig should replace the gun because it was clearly a machining error.

My friend called Sig back to give them the report from Bruce, and they again told him that "the gun is six years old" and "you bought it used" so it was not covered under any warranty. He explained that yes, it was bought used, but the slide is out of spec. I don't think the previous owner warped the slide especially since it was like brand new when I bought it from him. Sig's response was to chuckle on the phone and say, "How would you know?" So basically, laughing at the customer and telling them to kick rocks on what is obviously a factory defect.

He called Bruce back to explain that Sig said they would do nothing for him. So Bruce said he would throw his weight around at Sig and see what he could do for him. Bruce called back and said that they are telling him no as well. He explained that he fully believes the factory SHOULD replace this firearm and he has one other contact that he can talk to and will take the firearm in question with him when he visits Sig at the end of the month to hopefully try and get them to do right... but it doesn't sound good at this point.

We have not outed this story yet because we have been waiting to see what happens when Bruce takes the gun to Sig, but even if they do make it right at this point, it's solely due to Bruce pushing them on it. If it were up to them, they would be sticking a customer with a thousand dollar paperweight.

This is poor customer service all the way around.
 
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Yup! For your information, Uncle Malice is speaking about me directly. He's my personal friend off of TFL and I've been updating him the entire time. It's a very unfortunate thing and I never expected this from SIG Sauer as a company. I have been an enormous SIG fan for about the past 10 years and I've carried them religiously for the past 6, with a few flings along the way.

I'm just waiting for the outcome now... End of the month I'll know.
 
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I'll throw another story in for the hoot of it. Some years back I purchased a SIG SP2022 used in 40SW with a spare 357 SIG barrel. It seemed in good working order and was a hoot to shoot in 357 SIG (bring your ear pro). After a few hundred rounds though it the hammer starting following the slide (sear to hammer interaction was toast). I remember posting about it here and folks telling me that it was a somewhat known issue with those pistols in that caliber. I called up SIG. Their answer was I could pay to have it shipped to them overnight and then for $150 they'd go through the pistol and replace any parts that were worn. This plus $70 for overnight shipping was half the price of those pistols at the time. Yay?

Another more cosmetic story was I was one of those who first posted when SIG was having some issues with their nitride finish. Specifically the dipping racks they were using were leaving thumb sized gaps in the finish on both sides of the inside of the slide. This was a brand new $900 pistol. When I called SIG about it I was told this was perfectly normal and wasn't a cause for concern. Glocks at the time could be had for $500 and didn't exhibit the same problem. Now eventually SIG figured out how to make it work for the production pistols. Because it was normal there was no need to send it back in, nor would they take it even if I paid. Now is this more of a cosmetic issue? Sure. But it says something about a company when they are fine with brand new pistols for $900 with a finish subpar compared to pistols nearly half the price.
 
My SP2022 in 9mm had that problem! I believe it was right around the same time as yours and after reading your report, I didn't even bother sending it to Sig, I just sold it locally at a discount and let the guy know the issue i was having.
 
I don't have a Sig. I have bought several new guns that did have problems. A Ruger CMD that shot low, Ruger replaced it and the replacement had several problems, had to return it on warranty. A kimber that would lock back on the next to last round, I had to dimple the slide stop to make it work, A Citadel that the ejector tip broke off of, tried 3 time to contact them, replaced it myself, 3 S&W revolvers with problems, returned 2 on warranty, living with the other one. Citori shotgun, wouldn't cock, had to return it to Browning after the Warranty center in Dallas didn't repair it. It seems to be a crapshoot whether a new gun will work or not. These were all brand new guns. The mfgs are not doing any quality control. Put the parts together and ship them, if it's bad enough customer will return it. Very poor.
 
Not that they won't WORK on a used Sig. But there is ZERO warranty on any used Sig. You will pay out of pocket for anything that has to be done.

Sorry about the problem your friend is having but that is pretty much what you give up with a used gun or pretty much anything else that is out of the the warranty. Again I have read of many who have bought used SIGs that SIG repaired at no charge out of warranty, at least in the past, but I am sure that is a case by case basis.

I know my local gun store offers a warranty on used guns for $40 I believe. Not sure how many do that.
 
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Sorry about the problem your friend is having but that is pretty much what you give up with a used gun or pretty much anything else that is out of the the warranty. Again I have read of many who have bought used SIGs that SIG repaired at no charge out of warranty, at least in the past, but I am sure that is a case by case basis.

S&W has sent me parts for free and done repairs on pistols I bought used. It didn't add up to a lot of cost, but it was gratis.
 
Yup. I actually bought a used Walther PPS back when S&W was handling their US customer service.

Turned out it was actually broken, and that's why I got a good deal on it. S&W paid for shipping to them, informed me that it was broken at the ejector, which is part of the frame, and was not repairable. Rather than telling me to kick rocks and eat the cost, they sent me a brand new factory PPS AND replaced the 4 magazines I sent with the gun with brand new ones.

This was back when the PPS was like $600 and mags were like $60+ each. Because of that - admittedly surprising action - I purchased a bunch more S&W products. The M&P 9 is one of my favorite 9mm pistols. The only reason I don't currently have one in my collection is because I gave my father my M&P 9 with Trijicon HD's and Apex trigger kit. He loves it. I plan to replace it with an FDE version.

Some companies get it. Some don't. Sig does not.

By all means, buy a new Sig. You'll probably not have any problems, and if you do, they will probably take care of you. But I've been a huge Sig fanboy for YEARS, and frequently recommend people to buy used if they are concerned about the cost of a new Sig. A used P229/P226 for $600-ish is a great deal on a stellar gun... but not at the cost of having zero support from the manufacturer.

Referencing Ruger again, they have NO WARRANTY and will happily do right by the customer whether they are the first or fifth owner.
 
I have had several Ruger revolvers and I have high demands in regards to their accuracy. Over the years I have had to send in three revolvers for various issues. Ruger paid shipping both ways. In two of the cases they replaced the gun for free. The replacement was much nicer than the original. Like it got some extra tlc to ensure that I didn't return it again. The other gun they fixed the problem perfectly.
My opinion is that Ruger does not have great quality control because so many owners don't shoot enough to really identify minor problems or minimal accuracy issues. I do, and Ruger had backed me up. They'll keep getting my business.
Also I had an issue on a Dan Wesson revolver where I actually damaged the gun tinkering with it. CZ fixed it for free and paid shipping both ways. Great experience.

Sorry I just noticed this was in the semiauto forum, but I'll leave it here because I think the customer service experience is still relevant to the OP.
 
Sig guns are still good on avergae, but their customer service is not good at all. God forbid you ever buy a used Sig, you will COMPLETELY on your own.
Not my experience at all. I bought a used P290 several years ago...the front sight went dim...and they fixed it on their dime including shipping and I was up front about it being a used gun. For a used 1911 RCS, they replaced a barrel and bushing that got by QC and did a superb action/trigger job as well...on their dime as well.

Calls to their CS people have always been polite, helpful etc. I'd rate them with S&W and Ruger in that regard. True, this is just a cpl of instances but .... about as valid as anybody else's I'd say.

As to overall quality; all manuf's. today do not hand fit their products as they did 20-40 years go...and yes, I go back that far. To be honest, the good old days weren't as problem free as we'd like to remember. The reason for that hand-fitting that we all cherish, is that the basic machining and/or machine tools wasn't all that good.

Today's CNC machining is way above what was done years ago in my opinion. Having bought new, several Smiths and a half dozen Rugers over the past 10 years, my experience is that the new stuff in those makes is as accurate or more so than that delivered 20-40 years ago.

I'm not interested in getting into a peeing contest about this..as it's just my experience and YMMV obviously to a greater or lesser degree. I sincerely hope they work it out for you...and yes, it shouldn't have left the factory QC in less than operable condition. While the tools are better nowadays, the QC, for some, has gone down-hill.

I sure hope they make good on your problems. Rod
 
Not my experience at all. I bought a used P290 several years ago...the front sight went dim...and they fixed it on their dime including shipping and I was up front about it being a used gun. For a used 1911 RCS, they replaced a barrel and bushing that got by QC and did a superb action/trigger job as well...on their dime as well.

Calls to their CS people have always been polite, helpful etc. I'd rate them with S&W and Ruger in that regard. True, this is just a cpl of instances but .... about as valid as anybody else's I'd say.

As to overall quality; all manuf's. today do not hand fit their products as they did 20-40 years go...and yes, I go back that far. To be honest, the good old days weren't as problem free as we'd like to remember. The reason for that hand-fitting that we all cherish, is that the basic machining and/or machine tools wasn't all that good.

Today's CNC machining is way above what was done years ago in my opinion. Having bought new, several Smiths and a half dozen Rugers over the past 10 years, my experience is that the new stuff in those makes is as accurate or more so than that delivered 20-40 years ago.

I'm not interested in getting into a peeing contest about this..as it's just my experience and YMMV obviously to a greater or lesser degree. I sincerely hope they work it out for you...and yes, it shouldn't have left the factory QC in less than operable condition. While the tools are better nowadays, the QC, for some, has gone down-hill.

I sure hope they make good on your problems. Rod

Sig CS is very rep dependent in my experience. Some of them are very good some are piss poor. It is sort of the luck of the draw IMHO.

In both these cases you were lucky they worked on gun when you were not the original owner. Most people report rejection of their warranty claims by Sig when a gun is "used". The lifetime warranty applies only to the original purchaser.

You are correct that CNC machines allow for greater accuracy of the original part where the trouble starts is when those machines get out of spec and the people assembling, not fitting or building, these guns do not have the skill or the time to determine if a part is out of spec and it is used and assembled into a gun and sent to the consumer.

I believe that most guns like a Sig P299 or the OPs P938 are slapped together on an assembly line out of a bin of parts in front of a low skill worker who is not inspecting and QCing ever part but putting together pistols as fast as they can to meet production schedules. As a percentage of guns made the QC might only be 1% off from the days of more skilled workers but they are producing a lot more guns so the raw number of guns with defects is higher.

This was also true back in the good old days too IMHO. During the Bangor Punta days of S&W the guns produced are often considered inferior to the guns produced before and after. I have always believed that this was because S&W was producing a ton of guns at that time in relation to their size and the market. They were the dominate maker of the time. Their volumes sky rocketed and the number of pistols when up and the perceived QC when down but in reality I would speculate the defect % wasn't much higher they were simply putting out more pistols so the pure # of reported defects was much higher than at any other period previously. They were trying to squeeze more $$ out of ever gun at time of huge sales and the squeezed to hard. IMHO This does not mean S&W did not manufacture some crappy guns during the BP days but a lot had to do with market forces not just the style of production.

Sig these days is a lot better than they were in say 2010. Their adaption of a growth model based on volume, ala Cohen Kimber, caused a lot of issues in the early 2000s. Their poor execution of MIM at the time did not help. Moving tons of metal and not beefing up the CS side hurt Sig. All that said one has to remember that the good old ways of making Sig Pistols in Germany left the company an expensive low volume manufacturer which was no making any money when Cohen took over. For the most part these things have been corrected. These days I think in general Sig is making quality guns these days. I think they are still over priced for what you get but in general their quality is very good these days.

Hope the OP is able to work out the issue. Please update us if and when it gets resolved.
 
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The gun has been returned to Sig for inspection. Every phone call and email I had with them indicates they will not fix it. We'll have to see what they do. It will take many weeks so I have to be patient.

I'll report back with details. Regardless, the whole experience has soured me. That is why I am restarting my research with the information I get here and trying to find a better company to give me limited funds to.
 
I think quality can vary, not only by manufacturer, but by model lines and price points within a manufacturer. Extensive hand fitting and finishing are too costly for most mass produced firearms, especially in the budget lines, and end up being restricted to premium and custom guns (sometimes not even then). Compare a Smith and Wesson J frame from the 1960's to a comparable model of today. While metallurgy has probably improved, modern guns may use more plastic and cast parts. The trend seems to be toward durable utilitarian finishes, instead of beautiful aesthetic work. Fitment is done to the manufacturer's tolerances. Less than perfect is acceptable as long as it works. In addition, firearms are being produced in greater numbers and at faster speeds. Just by the law of averages, some lemons are going to slip through.
 
I've purchased more than 20 guns in the past two years. Some old, some new. The old guns were used, or listed as used; and purchased because they had a good reputation. I can't say any of my purchases were "bad" guns. However, some of them didn't live up to their reputation.

My experience with is SIG has been good, as far as their guns go. I believe the German mfg. ones are of better quality than the US mfg ones. I also believe their CS sucks. Every dealing with them left a bad taste in my mouth. Had it not been for my LSG I'd never deal with SIG again. They left me up in the air for over a year when I attempted to buy a p210 Legend Super Target, finally saying they were no longer available. I purchased a X-5 L1 at their regular price; they delivered it with 10 round magazines that refused to function in the gun. They might work in a regular p226; I don't know. I finally found a couple of magazines from another supplier.

I've purchased several Rugers. Bought one used; it looked like it had hardly been used, still had the sticker on the frame. It had problems. I paid to send it to them. Ruger CS fixed the problem, upgraded several items and returned it free of charge.

I have several old and new HK's. I can't tell any difference in quality. However, I will note the HK p7 series is different. The quality is excellent, the design is different and guns like that are not made anymore. It would be too expensive.

Actually, I'm impressed that modern guns are as good as they are. Reaching back over 70+ years of memory I recall a lot of guns not as good as what is available today.
 
I have many pistols from many manufacturers, including CZ, Beretta, Colt, S&W, H&K, Ruger and SIG. It's been my experience that the companies providing the very best customer service are Ruger and Smith & Wesson. Also, the semi-auto pistols that I have found to be the most rugged and reliable, day in and day out, no matter what they're fed, are Smith "Third Generation" pistols.

This isn't to say that other companies don't provide good customer service or that other companies don't make "rugged and reliable" pistols; I'm just citing my own experiences.
 
Todays handgun manufactors and quality

Not long ago, I purchased a new Sig 1911, the pistol would not run a mag of new fmj without jamming. The Sig tech was called, and he told me that the Sig 1911 will need 400 or so rounds to "break-in the pistol. He was somewhat rude also. My opinion of Sig has reached a new low. ---
 
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