Today's handgun manufacturers and quality

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barrybenson1776

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This is a topic for those who like delving a little deeper into a topic.

14 years ago, I bought my first handgun, a Sig Sauer P226. At the time, my research told that Sig was a high quality company. The 226 was/is great. It was more expensive at the time than others. It's what I consider high quality for a production gun.

Jump ahead 14 years. I just bought another Sig, and I'm finding that they are not the same company they were 14 years ago. I bought a new P938, and it has quality issues that I won't get into. I'm trying to resolve them with Sig, but their customer service is horrible. If your P938 is awesome, then I am happy for you, but it doesn't change my issues with them. For the price, I demand better.

I'd like to discuss today's production (not custom) gun companies and their quality. Is there one or two that are better on average, than the others? Is there one that is consistently putting out high quality, and if there are problem, has great customer service? Is there one that most agree upon as being really good?

I do not want to debate or argue with people who have no issues. There will always be the guy with gun A that's been awesome VS. another guy that has the same gun and it's been troublesome.
 
I have no doubt that overall quality has improved in the firearms industry. Also, they are selling more guns than they did several years. So, even with the overall quality improvement the increase in sales could still mean more bad guns hitting the market.

As for customer service regrettably it can be hit or miss with most companies. Since you don’t want to discuss personal experiences I won’t, but let’s just say mine did not match yours.

One of the big issues that the firearms industry deals with is cost control. We as consumers want Neiman Marcus quality/service at Wal-Mart prices. So, they walk a fine line trying to keep prices under control while simultaneously providing an ever improving product.
 
Another unique problem gun manufacturers are the disparate laws that vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Proactively addressing a one-off law may compromise overall reliability, perceived quality or accuracy.
Can anyone think how a 7-12 lb trigger improves at least 2 of those 3 factors?
 
I definitely willing to pay more if I get a better quality handgun.

Sig is generally more expensive than some other common companies like Smith & Wesson or Glock. I expected more and paid more, but didn't get more.
 
Your last sentence is really the key. There will always be lemons. You say you don't want to debate against people that don't have issues. So what do you want us to tell you? I have owned at least one pistol from just about every current manufacturer on the market. There has not been a single manufacturer in all of those that didn't have any issues. Sometimes the issue was small but it was still an issue. I would say for me personally HK had the fewest issues among the dozen I've owned and Glock the most consistent issue (ejection). S&W has been for me the most troublesome.

Here's the thing: I'd still buy a S&W if the mood struck me because as I said lemons happen. It's also been my experience that certain manufacturers that have higher price tags, both SIG and HK for me, are sometimes reluctant to take pistols back whereas lower cost manufacturers often do so eagerly. So you can buy from a "higher" quality company and maybe have less of a chance of a problem, but if you do have a problem it can be a battle getting it fixed.

I find both on these forums and in gun stores that people often let one bad experience sour them very quickly. It's natural to an extent, but it's also a shame. I'd i had let that be the case then I wouldn't have owned some great firearms. I know you don't want to discuss your issues, but if I were you I wouldn't give up. If it's a functional problem you may have to play the game of asking to speak to someone higher up or calling multiple times. For now, I can't really say there's a manufacturer that's roses and sunshine all the time. As was noted before, the volume these days is massive for many of these companies. Even if the QC remained the same and the percentage of bad guns the same that still means more bad guns being made.


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I will take high quality frame/slide and parts, and parts availability over customer service any day. Guns are relatively simple machines. They need to work when you most need them. No amount of customer service or warranty is going to make your gun go "bang" when you find yourself in a bad situation.

In fact, I wish I could find a gun company out there that advertises: "We make and sell superior guns. We offer no warranty or customer service; all of our resources go into making the finest gun possible and making sure you can always obtain parts for it." That's the gun I want!
 
I'd like to discuss today's production (not custom) gun companies and their quality.
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All of them,really?
Is there one or two that are better on average, than the others? Is there one that is consistently putting out high quality, and if there are problem, has great customer service?
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This question is ambiguous to the point that any answer is just an opinion.
Is there one that most agree upon as being really good?
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You bought a good pistol then but now the pistol you bought is not acceptable,
based on that,how do you rate that company?
 
I think almost all manufacturers have a reputation to uphold, and must make good handguns or close up shop. Competition is beyond fierce. Even the budget companies are improving in quality. Just as I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Glock, Browning, Ruger, or Smith; I wouldn't hesitate to try a Sig, HK, or Kimber (or Taurus, or Bersa for that matter). Any of the above could release a lemon though.
 
In fact, I wish I could find a gun company out there that advertises: "We make and sell superior guns. We offer no warranty or customer service; all of our resources go into making the finest gun possible and making sure you can always obtain parts for it." That's the gun I want!
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That would be a snake oil salesman. There is no manufacturing process I am familiar with that has a 100% success rate. You say guns are relatively simple machines. By all means then go out and build us such a pistol as you described. Yes pistols can be relatively simple in terms of number of parts, but they generally involve fairly tight tolerances and even a pistol that passes a function check might have issues in actual firing. For that matter to guarantee a pistol will work perfectly with every type of ammunition, lubricant, and user is no small task and that's what manufacturers have to contend with. We can find a complaint for every manufacturer online, even those commanding premium prices. Even if built perfectly, the parts within that pistol will have a useful life and you might still need customer service for maintenance of certain parts.
 
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I'll try to reply to everybody.

If you want to limit the companies, here's some I'd consider: Sig Sauer, Smith&Wesson, HK, Ruger, Glock, Kimber, Berreta.

Since all companies make mistakes, I understand that lemons exist. When this happens, if good customer service and a warranty kicks in,then I'm still happy. I still will buy more from them.

If they refuse to fix or can't fix it right, then I become soured.

I'm looking for people who have detailed experience with a reasonable variety, and have found some objective information. That's why I mentioned not wanting to debate your gun vs. my gun. If anyone has, for example, purchased, say 6 different guns and had consistent results, I'm curious to learn from you.
 
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If anyone has, for example, purchased, say 6 different guns and had consistent results, I'm curious to learn from you.
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I'd be more curious if they had inconsistent results in those 6 guns. You're making it out like you're looking for a diamond in the rough so to speak. I think the more reasonable course is the least bad.
 
I had a S&W with an issue. Although it worked fine, the trigger was a joke. Had a issue with a ruger revolver right off the bat. Got rid of it. Had a glock no issues in 400rds, my Springfield 1911 no issues in 1300rds, Walther PPQ no issues in 500rds.

I think guns nowadays actually are made with less quality then say 40 or more years ago
 
Unfortunately, your experience with Sig is not a rarity. Sig guns are still good on avergae, but their customer service is not good at all. God forbid you ever buy a used Sig, you will COMPLETELY on your own.

There's a story brewing on that topic that has not been made public yet, but even though it did not involve my personal gun, I am very close to the process and their disregard for their customers has left me with a very bad taste. That's sad, because Sig has always been my favorite manufacturer. I don't have a problem with a company putting out a product that may have a problem. It's impossible to be perfect. I judge the company on how they handle those problems when they crop up, and I'm sad to say that Sigs current status is rather disgusting in that regard. To the point of snickering on the phone and saying "you bought it used, what do you want us to do about it?"

More to the point, HK is probably known for producing the fewest lemons. They aren't cheap, but that's the point. You get a well made product with good quality control. They don't necessarily bend over backwards for you, but they will own up to any actual defects in the product.

Springfield Armory is one that is known for having absolutely spectacular customer service. Any questionable issue with a firearm, they pay shipping both ways, fast turn around, and happy-to-help attitudes. I've had similarly good experiences with Smith & Wesson in the past, but the last couple of times I've called them has been less stellar.

Ruger is reported to have superb customer service as well, though I have no personal exposure to that. I think the quality of their (semi auto) guns is not necessarily as good as some of the competition, but they do stand behind them very strongly, by all accounts. Especially since they have NO written warranty whatsoever. They simply believe in doing the right thing. I do like their revolvers and rifles though. I've just never really liked the semi auto's I've had.

It's really a shame about Sig. They've got some great products(the 238/938 are not necessarily among them) but for that kind of investment, I expect the company to stand behind their products better than they do....
 
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More to the point, HK is probably known for producing the fewest lemons. They aren't cheap, but that's the point. You get a well made product with good quality control. They don't necessarily bend over backwards for you, but they will own up to any actual defects in the product.
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My own experience sort of disagrees. I owned probably 3 P30 pistols (I have a spreadsheet that is too long to scroll). Of those one of them would eject straight back to the chest. It wasn't to the face to its credit, but it was still annoying. It did this with hot 124 gr and 147 gr 9mm ball from American Eagle, Winchester, and other manufacturers. When I called HK about it they asked what ammo I was using. I said I was using 124 gr NATO spec ammo. They said I needed to keep shooting it to break it in. I said at that point that I had 800 rds through the pistol, and I did. I was then told that I must be limp wristing the pistol. Straight out, "You're just limp wristing it". When I responded that I'd owned a number of HK pistols, both USP Compacts and P2000s and multiples of each, and never had a problem I was told that the P30 is a different design. When I brought up the fact that the internal parts of the P2000/P30 are so similar that they share manuals, I was told that it still must be me. To this day I'm not sure how I could limpwrist a P30 and not a P2000, and for that matter I've seen my wife badly limpwrist a P2000 and it still runs like a sewing machine. There was absolutely zero mention or inkling of them being willing to have me ship the pistol to them, much less pay for it on their end. The phone call ended with the representative just leaving dead air on the phone until I said goodbye, he said, "Bye", and hung up the phone.

Some 500 rds later and the pistol started moving its ejection pattern close to 4 o'clock. My guess is a recoil spring that was a bit too stiff and on the edge of acceptability. You can go the, "Well they do it that way to handle hot ammo", route with me, and I still call bs. I've owned a dozen or more HKs and this was the only one that did that. But instead of owning up to a potential problem, they blamed me the end user. Do I think HK is as bad as SIG? No, not really. SIG's QC is at a point that even with the ability to borrow employee discounts for 50% off the MSRP of their products I still go other routes and I am tired of the back and forth people have to go through with them, which can be read about here. But HK in my experience takes the same route I've seen German car manufacturers go where they deny there is a problem and blame it on the user. This is just my experience.
 
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Uncle Malice, thank you for the information. This is the type of info I'm trying to get.

I'm trying to find a single company to buy from, one that has good quality, good customer service, and one that I'll be happy with long term, if that is possible.
 
^ My honest advice then from multiple examples of each would be either Glock or HK. Those I'd recommend the most highly, but it's still no guarantee of no lemons just as a reminder. With Glocks I always caution that the ejection pattern may not be great, but there are simple fixes that can usually remedy that if there's a problem. Despite the issues I had with that P30, the rest of the dozen were rock solid for thousands of rounds. I did have an out of spec trigger bar on a USP 45 compact that produced a false reset (a somewhat common issue you can Google), but on that occasion HK offered to take the pistol in, fix it, and then also install a match kit on a discount if I wanted.
 
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I agree with that. Glock or HK for the combination of reliability and customer service.


TR, I do agree that HK has a tendency to try and do everything they can to avoid having to actually look at the pistol, and in the vast majority of cases they DO NOT pay shipping to them, but will pay it on the return. They're certainly not the easiest to work with, but I haven't seen them totally disregard a legitimately malfunctioning or faulty pistol. I think it says something that they literally only had ONE person(Jesse) handling all customer service repairs for the entire US for over a decade. I think their customer service has also stepped up over the last few years, too. I don't know when your P30 experience was, but might be something to note. While Sig and some others(apparently S&W) have been going downhill, my impressions have been that HK is actually improving in that area.

I think Springfield probably still holds the title as best in the business though. I just wish I liked more of their guns. lol
 
This was within the past few years. Again I still recommend HK, but that was easily one of the worst customer experiences I had in that it was just sort of baffling. The USP Compact experience was later and seemed fair to me. Maybe I caught the guy on a bad day. That's sort of why my initial post on this thread was as cautionary as it was. We tend to put way too much importance on anecdotal evidence. We need like an Amazon rating system for gun manufacturers, someplace where it's centralized and there is an average rating to smooth out the anomalies.


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Unfortunately, your experience with Sig is not a rarity. Sig guns are still good on avergae, but their customer service is not good at all. God forbid you ever buy a used Sig, you will COMPLETELY on your own.
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That is being a bit overly dramatic. A lot of SIG owners have received great service on used SIGs and SIG has been known to do repairs for no charge in some cases depending on what the issue is.

Has someone at SIG personally told you that they no longer do any work on any used SIG ??

Of course there are exceptions such as a damaged metal frame on an out of warranty SIG where they might not do anything though Bruce Gray is a possibility for that. Otherwise in such a case the owner might part out the internals and slide/barrel of the pistol for sale.

Buying used is always a gamble including whatever amateur gunsmithing may have been done. Typically there are no problems but at times it can be almost a total loss. That is why I almost buy almost exclusively new and if patient I can find new firearms at close to used prices anyway and get the full warranty.

I very likely will be getting a new P320 Compact 9MM sometime soon once I find once with updated slide stop, take down lever, frame, and trigger. Sometime this year I probably will get a Legion P229 9MM. I have absolutely no qualms in buying them.
 
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