Wildalaska
Moderator
Bingo.....
US guns and US pistols are not designed for steel case ammo.
WildacceleratedwearAlaska
US guns and US pistols are not designed for steel case ammo.
WildacceleratedwearAlaska
To Wolf or not to Wolf
- Thread starter H&K4Life
- Start date
CDignition
New member
if the chamber is chrome, it is not an issue...Extractors are cheap to replace, and the diffrence in $$$ saved in ammo can easily buy new extractors...
Don't you just love how the economy works?
Probably true--which is why I don't use Wolf in my US guns (all 2 of them, both .22LR
).
Amen to that. If you want tack-driving accuracy, look for something else. If you want to have some "fun with your gun" (err, rifle
), Wolf is fine--assuming your weapon isn't an AR :barf: . And, since I have no autoloaders, I can't comment on their pistol ammo. YMMV.The issue with Wolf is the steel case.
A brass case has memory, upon firing it expands then snaps back to nearly the same shape it held before.
A steel case, once fired, remains in its expanded shape and exerts considerable grip on the chamber walls.
I have shot nearly 10,000 rounds of Wolf this year, but only in weapons intended to be shot with dirty steel case cartridges.
As far as shooting Wolf in an AR-15 you gotta be crazy!!!
mtnbkr:clean the gas tube in your AR and tell us what it is like
Wildalaska
Moderator
Really....when was the last time you changed an extractor on a quality firearm? You can fit them yourslf? How bout on a remington 700? Would you toss Wolf down a remington 700? Ever change the extractor in a BHP? or an M1 carbine? Hey, what happens when the case gets stuck, the extractor shears off, the next round is stripped off the mag and becasue there is a pice of the extractor floating around, the fresh round blows out of battery? (ive seen that one)...
All to save how much?
Agian, its amazing how some poples egos are so damaged by the very concept that what they like actually sucks. Im not telling you guys what to use, Im indicating to you what not to use. You wanna toss Wolf down an SKS...hey thats what the gun was designed to use. Other than com bloc guns, most though were designed for brass cases. You want to shoot em in your ARs or Colts or whatever, hey keep a few extra $$ for your gunsmith
WildpspolymermeltstooAlaska
It's funny because I see and talk to some guys that use it at the range because it is cheap. They complain constantly because it stinks, is dirty as hell, and not consistently accurate. They are miserable during the whole range experience and then after they say how great Wolf is for the money, it's a riot.
I see no problem using Wolf in a military surplus SKS, AK, or Makarov pistol. However, I would not use it in any new gun that I really cared about. The steel cases are rough on the extractor. Also, I have heard that if the gun gets too hot, like from many rapidly fired shots, the lacquer on the case can melt a little and make a big mess that's hard to clean up in your gun.
I can’t think of why anyone would want to put Wolf in something like a Remington 700. Its well known Wolf is not terribly accurate or match ammo so you’d be stupid to put it in something like a scoped Rem. 700 where the capabilities of the ammo would limit you far more than the capabilities of the firearm. However, for something like offhand plinking at pumpkins with an AR, AK, FAL, G3, or most pistols or pistol caliber caliber carbines, its fine IMHO. YMMV.
Now about the steel – those of you claiming the steel of the Wolf cases will damage chamber and extractors, can you elaborate on the type of steel alloy from which Wolf cases are made in contrast to that of what your extractor is made? Also please feel free to comment on which design features comblock guns possess which makes them "designed for steel cases" which US weapons lack. I’m not a metallurgist, but even I know all steel is not created equal, and all steels do not have the same physical properties. It was claimed here that the steel cases do not snap back as easily as a brass case would. Have you ever seen a steel spring – a coiled or a flat spring? Do you honestly believe Wolf cases are made with the same hardened and high quality tool steel extractors and most quality gun parts are made from? Heck, the only ammo I use in my M11 SMG is Wolf. Its still using the same extractor that came in the gun when it was originally made 20 years ago and after tens of thousands of rounds its still running on Wolf without a problem. OTOH, I've had extractors break after just a few hundred rounds of brass cased .22LR in an AM180 - does that mean brass cases are hard on extractors, or does it mean I just got a bum extractor?
Now about the steel – those of you claiming the steel of the Wolf cases will damage chamber and extractors, can you elaborate on the type of steel alloy from which Wolf cases are made in contrast to that of what your extractor is made? Also please feel free to comment on which design features comblock guns possess which makes them "designed for steel cases" which US weapons lack. I’m not a metallurgist, but even I know all steel is not created equal, and all steels do not have the same physical properties. It was claimed here that the steel cases do not snap back as easily as a brass case would. Have you ever seen a steel spring – a coiled or a flat spring? Do you honestly believe Wolf cases are made with the same hardened and high quality tool steel extractors and most quality gun parts are made from? Heck, the only ammo I use in my M11 SMG is Wolf. Its still using the same extractor that came in the gun when it was originally made 20 years ago and after tens of thousands of rounds its still running on Wolf without a problem. OTOH, I've had extractors break after just a few hundred rounds of brass cased .22LR in an AM180 - does that mean brass cases are hard on extractors, or does it mean I just got a bum extractor?
Damage to your extractor is NOT caused by the hardness of the steel case.
It is caused by the increased force needed to extract the case.
WildAlaska: We had a guy weld shut an old a older Ruger No.1 in .223 with a single round of Wolf.
It took a deadblow hammer to get the action open.
It is caused by the increased force needed to extract the case.
WildAlaska: We had a guy weld shut an old a older Ruger No.1 in .223 with a single round of Wolf.
It took a deadblow hammer to get the action open.
If true, then its seems it would still only damage the extractor if the case was harder than the extractor. I've run Wolf in a 10.5", 11.5", and even a 7.5" upper (all of which have a far more violent extraction cycle than any 16"+ barreled AR15/M16) and seen no problems with Wolf. The 7.5" upper wasn't even chrome lined barrel.
Note the placement of my left hand on the mag well. After 4-5mags dumped in quick succession in full-auto on a 90+ degree summer day the aluminum handguard was too hot to hold. Gun ran fine, and no malfs or other evidence of 'melted lacquer'.
.jpg)
I didn't clean it (more on that later), but I just pulled it out and took a look at it. It's actually cleaner than I expected (I'm an AR newbie). The visible internal walls of the tube are black, but there isn't any accumulation. A puff of air in one end results in a corresponding puff out of the other end's hole (no, I didn't put my lips on the tube).
I also took a look at the bolt and chamber as best I could without a scope or magnifying glass. Everything looked good. I didn't see any abnormal wear or accumulation, just the normal soot that any semiauto would develop (and surprisingly little for 400 rounds).
I built this gun for three reasons: First, I wanted an EBR with all the scary features (collapsible stock, flashider, and hicap mags). Second, I wanted to see what the AR hype was about. Third, I wanted to see if the AR was as unreliable as some folks say. To puruse the final reason, I've decided to not clean the gun until it hits 1000 rounds or starts jamming, whatever comes first. At first, I wasn't going to use Wolf because of what I've read on the Internet (which isn't real, remember). However, affordable brass cased ammo is getting harder to find around here. It gets expensive to feed this rifle when you can blast through 6mags worth in a single session. I tried Wolf and found it acceptable for my purposes. While I had the gun apart, I did wipe some of the soot from the bolt in order to inspect it, but I did no deep cleaning or scrubbing. The sort of wipedown I gave it could be accomplished in the field by a soldier using his shirttail or a rag.
To compare the use of Wolf in an AR to Wolf in a boltrifle is like comparing apples and oranges. At least for me, the two rifles have completely different uses. My bolt rifle gets fired 20-30 times during a range session and all of the brass is collected for handloading (I load maybe 200 rounds a year). My handloads are crafted for accuracy and terminal effect on deer. My AR is a range blaster, no more, no less. I go through as much as 180 rounds in a session. I don't load for it and don't plan to either. The ammo costs add up for the AR.
I have no particular attachment to Wolf Ammo. If Wal-Mart still carried the WWB 223 (7.76 for 40 rounds), I'd never would have touched Wolf.
Good grief, this post got long...
Chris
Shaggy WildAlaska: I just did a little x-spearmint.
I took a just fired Wolf 7.62x39 case and heated it with open flame for 2 minutes.
I then took my pocket knife and tried to scrape away the coating.
The result?
You can scratch the coating away but it dosent appear to soften.
I then took another case and scraped ALL of its coating off onto a piece of wax paper.
I then transfered the scrapings to a butter knife which I then heated with an open flame for 3 minutes.
After 3 minutes the scrapings were still solid.
I took a just fired Wolf 7.62x39 case and heated it with open flame for 2 minutes.
I then took my pocket knife and tried to scrape away the coating.
The result?
You can scratch the coating away but it dosent appear to soften.
I then took another case and scraped ALL of its coating off onto a piece of wax paper.
I then transfered the scrapings to a butter knife which I then heated with an open flame for 3 minutes.
After 3 minutes the scrapings were still solid.
"If true, then its seems it would still only damage the extractor if the case was harder than the extractor"
Shaggy: Think of it this way.
Say it requires 20ft/lbs of force to extract a 5.56 our of your carbine using brass case ammo.
Now say it takes 30ft/lbs of force to extract steel case ammo.
Your extractor is only built to take 20ft/lbs so every time your weapon cycles you over-stress that part.
The Youngs Modulus of the case rim isnt an issue as all it has to do is hold the extractor and not get ripped off.
Shaggy: Think of it this way.
Say it requires 20ft/lbs of force to extract a 5.56 our of your carbine using brass case ammo.
Now say it takes 30ft/lbs of force to extract steel case ammo.
Your extractor is only built to take 20ft/lbs so every time your weapon cycles you over-stress that part.
The Youngs Modulus of the case rim isnt an issue as all it has to do is hold the extractor and not get ripped off.
Personally, though I am a Wolf fan, I think Wild sums it up nicely right there. Stick by that philosophy, and you'll do fine--no screwing up finiky ARs, breaking expensive weapons, or whatnot; just some quality time shooting cheap ammo out of combloc gunsWildalaska said:
.Here's a random thought...
Is the Wolf related failure rate really higher than other ammo? We pay attention to failures that might be associated with it (just like some folks key in on 1911 failures, etc). However, if a similar failure occurs with brass cased ammo, does it get noticed as an ammo related failure or some failure with the gun or it's maintenance? I've heard of some of the same failures occuring with brass ammo, but people don't seem to blame the ammo itself in those situations.
Put another way...
If two identical guns, in identical (or nearly so) condition were used as a test, one given a diet (maybe 1k rounds?) of Wolf and the other a diet of Winchester White Box 223, which would have more problems? Of course, both would receive the same level of cleaning and maintenance during the test, etc.
Is the supposedly higher failure rate of Wolf due to lower quality or because people that shoot Wolf tend to shoot more, therefore firing more rounds between needed cleanings? Are failures with brass cased ammo recognized more as gun related failures rather than ammo related? I'd put my rifle to the test if someone would supply the ammo. Otherwise, I doubt I'd burn through that much ammo in a year.
Chris
Is the Wolf related failure rate really higher than other ammo? We pay attention to failures that might be associated with it (just like some folks key in on 1911 failures, etc). However, if a similar failure occurs with brass cased ammo, does it get noticed as an ammo related failure or some failure with the gun or it's maintenance? I've heard of some of the same failures occuring with brass ammo, but people don't seem to blame the ammo itself in those situations.
Put another way...
If two identical guns, in identical (or nearly so) condition were used as a test, one given a diet (maybe 1k rounds?) of Wolf and the other a diet of Winchester White Box 223, which would have more problems? Of course, both would receive the same level of cleaning and maintenance during the test, etc.
Is the supposedly higher failure rate of Wolf due to lower quality or because people that shoot Wolf tend to shoot more, therefore firing more rounds between needed cleanings? Are failures with brass cased ammo recognized more as gun related failures rather than ammo related? I'd put my rifle to the test if someone would supply the ammo. Otherwise, I doubt I'd burn through that much ammo in a year.
Chris
VirgilCaine
New member
My Mosin-Nagant loves Wolf 7.62x54r
My Chi-Com SKS loves Wolf 7.62x39
My EAA Saiga AK loves wolf 7.62x39
My BSA Martini International loves Wolf .22lr (as does all of my rimfire rifles)
My Colt Commander hates it.
My Ruger Mini-14 hates it.
My Chi-Com SKS loves Wolf 7.62x39
My EAA Saiga AK loves wolf 7.62x39
My BSA Martini International loves Wolf .22lr (as does all of my rimfire rifles)
My Colt Commander hates it.
My Ruger Mini-14 hates it.
I shot 100 rounds today... it was not nearly as dirty as winchester white box, or UMC. (I heard it's been changed and doesn't shoot as dirty as it used to, and they got rid of the coating???? is this true anyone?). But I did have some problems with feeding in my taurus 27/4 in 40S&W. The price was right at gander mountain, so I had to try wolf in my .40, but I'm not quite happy. I'll keep shooting it in my SKS though with a HUGE smile on my face!!!
tom
tom
CDignition
New member
Just last week....
Yes, sure..Rem Extractors are no big deal....but if it a varmint gun, whats the point, Wolf isnt accurate enough to bother.
Yup to both....
Thus the reason for Saftey glasses and hearing protection..
Ammoman has this:
Wolf: $139-1000 rounds.
223 LAKE CITY SS109 GREEN TIP 223 (PD Ammo, possibly out of spec) $229-1000 Rounds.
so for every 1000 rounds u save $90 bucks...thats 3 or 4 AR-15 extractors easy, in a Rem 700, thats one every thousand rounds(you dont charge $100 bux to replace one do ya??..if ya do, its highway robbery).
so there is real savings to be had here, especially for the guy that has 2 or 3 kids at home, and not alot of disposable income...
Define Sucks....quality is subjective in this type of thing...some guys are happy if it goes bang everytime, and if they have to do some maint., no big deal..benchresters would laugh at the thought of using Wolf.
all in a days labor...lol.
281 Quad Cam
New member
TomG has something of a point too.
I don't find wolf to be particularly dirty. Winchester White box typically leaves quite large powder grains and residue all over my Glock. Wolf not so dirty, and no large unburnt grains. So there is some American ammo you can run that is quite a ways dirtier than Wolf. That is only my experience.
In my SKS the Wolf doesn't leave it too dirty either. I run Wolf pretty much exclusively so I can't compare, however I can say that after a few hundred rounds, it isn't in need of a cleaning, no junk buildup anywhere. Save for some red crap from its primer sealant or whatever. But I never really did clean it all that good anyway, it's an SKS.
Wolf from what I hear used to be much worse than it is now. They are cleaning up their act so to speak.
If you aren't using an AR-15... Shoot it, try it... See how accurate it gets for you, see how dirty it makes your gun, choose your own destiny.
I don't find wolf to be particularly dirty. Winchester White box typically leaves quite large powder grains and residue all over my Glock. Wolf not so dirty, and no large unburnt grains. So there is some American ammo you can run that is quite a ways dirtier than Wolf. That is only my experience.
In my SKS the Wolf doesn't leave it too dirty either. I run Wolf pretty much exclusively so I can't compare, however I can say that after a few hundred rounds, it isn't in need of a cleaning, no junk buildup anywhere. Save for some red crap from its primer sealant or whatever. But I never really did clean it all that good anyway, it's an SKS.
Wolf from what I hear used to be much worse than it is now. They are cleaning up their act so to speak.
If you aren't using an AR-15... Shoot it, try it... See how accurate it gets for you, see how dirty it makes your gun, choose your own destiny.
Wildalaska
Moderator
I prefer to do my maintenance sporadically, not becasue out of spec ammo casues it
Sigh......like I said...ego needs...
Im sure if I searched around I could find ya a better deal...heck Im here in Alaska with all the extra shipping that entials and I am doing 223 for as little as $175 per thousand, brass case reloadable...but whatever....
WildthisisgettinsillyalreadyAlaska