Wasnt a fight, he was to wrestle me in our training. I was like 245 he was 95 or 100. He could use my weight against me, made me miss knee drop take downs and such. Had a way of just touching me in a place to make me flinch away from him then he would take me down. Hard to describe. He could get a person off balance then he had them.
To stir up old discontent... MA training
- Thread starter MLeake
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Wasnt a fight, he was to wrestle me in our training. I was like 245 he was 95 or 100. He could use my weight against me, made me miss knee drop take downs and such. Had a way of just touching me in a place to make me flinch away from him then he would take me down. Hard to describe. He could get a person off balance then he had them.
Tucker 1371
New member
The two most important things in a hand to hand situation are center of gravity and momentum. The one with the lower CoG has a decisive advantage and the one who can use his opponents momentum against him effectively also has a decisive advantage. The one who has both wins the day.
The most important thing is to be thorough in your training. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. My high school wrestling coach always told me it took something like 4000 repititions before a move would be committed to muscle memory. I hated having to practice the new beginner moves at the beginning of the season until I saw the value in it and now I'm thankful I did.
I would recommend standard folkstyle wrestling as a good base to build off of. From there there are a thousand different ways to go. Right now I'm working on my jiu jitsu along with some kick boxing.
If you've got the funds I'd recommend Krav Maga, the MA used by the Israeli Special Forces. I wanted to do it but my local Martial Arts studio charges something that would come out to about $1800 per semester... only a hair less than I was paying for rent, cable, internet, and utilities combined.
When the SHTF I would rather have a gun but it's always preferable to be able to end a confrontation without one, MA just give you one more step in your response levels.
The most important thing is to be thorough in your training. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. My high school wrestling coach always told me it took something like 4000 repititions before a move would be committed to muscle memory. I hated having to practice the new beginner moves at the beginning of the season until I saw the value in it and now I'm thankful I did.
I would recommend standard folkstyle wrestling as a good base to build off of. From there there are a thousand different ways to go. Right now I'm working on my jiu jitsu along with some kick boxing.
If you've got the funds I'd recommend Krav Maga, the MA used by the Israeli Special Forces. I wanted to do it but my local Martial Arts studio charges something that would come out to about $1800 per semester... only a hair less than I was paying for rent, cable, internet, and utilities combined.
When the SHTF I would rather have a gun but it's always preferable to be able to end a confrontation without one, MA just give you one more step in your response levels.
Naterstein
New member
HAHAHA!!!
nitetrane98
Moderator
Just to bring this back into the realm of everyday instances. I have no idea from which disciplines these moves derived but we were taught some "basic come along" or "pain compliance" holds and moves in LE academy. These were so simple and so effective. We had to be so careful not to hurt our training buddy. We were also cautioned about what could happen with overzealous application. They could easily escalate resistance if the guy just didn't get the memo. Later we had gun retention drills, several of which would just about guarantee a broken bone for the BG somewhere if done at full speed. It definitely had to be practiced to stay sharp with. I wished I could have afforded some real training.
"Getting choked only hurts until you tap"
And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's ingrained into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.
And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's ingrained into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.
No offense, but I have to comment on this story. First of all I have also trained in martial arts for many years myself and I can assure you that if a guy gets the drop on you, with a loaded gun, with a round in the chamber, there is little that can be done if the person is reasonably proficient and willing to pull the trigger. All the ninja skills in the world wont save you because the trigger finger is almost always faster than any full body,arm, or hand movement can be. Its just reality.
The reason why your friend was able to disarm these guys was probably that they either had no clue what they were doing with a gun or they weren't really willing to go all the way and they were just show boating with the gun trying to act tough as drug dealers often do. Had they really wanted to shoot him they just would have done it no questions asked and not just pulled the gun and waited for his ninja move.
I was doing "gun defense" with an MA instructor one time years ago. He said that he could disarm me easily. As he walked over to demonstrate I pulled out the fake demo gun and went bang bang bang! He said "That wasn't fair you didn't let me get ready..."
This not to say that martial arts are no good I just think that these kind of stories are the exception and not the rule.
To Re4mer
The point is to not let the guy get the drop on you, by not letting him get his weapon aimed at you in the first place.
Up close and personal, the idea is to jam the draw. My friend has done exactly that, on multiple occasions. Your analysis is off because it assumes the BG has the drop in the first place - the fact that hasn't happened to my friend isn't a matter of luck, it's a matter of awareness and aggressiveness.
Undercover narcotics officer watches for any indication that BG will draw a weapon of any sort. At first indication, undercover officer closes from arm's length to full contact, and wraps the guy up as brutally and quickly as possible. Muzzle of weapon is directed at BG from moment weapon begins to clear. BG can choose to pull trigger on self, or release weapon. BG sometimes gets arm or wrist broken while figuring this out.
You've trained, you say? Have you ever tried to draw a weapon with a jujitsu guy on top of you? Not across the room, but in the front seat of the car with you. Or on the stool next to yours at the bar?
I'm guessing the "martial arts instructor" you had your training episode with wasn't a cop or an infantryman. When my friend is working a dealer, he doesn't have to get ready, he's mentally already there.
At the schools where I've trained, 1/3 to 1/2 of the students have been police or corrections officers. A high percentage have been active or prior military. Many of the guys have had to defend themselves against blades or clubs, and at least a couple have had to deal with firearms.
Sorry if this is outside your statistical norm. It's not outside for my training circle's. If you want to try your weapon drill with my friend or one of our other instructors some time, drop me a PM and I'll give you directions to the dojo. Bear in mind, though, the scenario would be starting out at close range, with the weapon concealed, and your hand not on it.
The point is to not let the guy get the drop on you, by not letting him get his weapon aimed at you in the first place.
Up close and personal, the idea is to jam the draw. My friend has done exactly that, on multiple occasions. Your analysis is off because it assumes the BG has the drop in the first place - the fact that hasn't happened to my friend isn't a matter of luck, it's a matter of awareness and aggressiveness.
Undercover narcotics officer watches for any indication that BG will draw a weapon of any sort. At first indication, undercover officer closes from arm's length to full contact, and wraps the guy up as brutally and quickly as possible. Muzzle of weapon is directed at BG from moment weapon begins to clear. BG can choose to pull trigger on self, or release weapon. BG sometimes gets arm or wrist broken while figuring this out.
You've trained, you say? Have you ever tried to draw a weapon with a jujitsu guy on top of you? Not across the room, but in the front seat of the car with you. Or on the stool next to yours at the bar?
I'm guessing the "martial arts instructor" you had your training episode with wasn't a cop or an infantryman. When my friend is working a dealer, he doesn't have to get ready, he's mentally already there.
At the schools where I've trained, 1/3 to 1/2 of the students have been police or corrections officers. A high percentage have been active or prior military. Many of the guys have had to defend themselves against blades or clubs, and at least a couple have had to deal with firearms.
Sorry if this is outside your statistical norm. It's not outside for my training circle's. If you want to try your weapon drill with my friend or one of our other instructors some time, drop me a PM and I'll give you directions to the dojo. Bear in mind, though, the scenario would be starting out at close range, with the weapon concealed, and your hand not on it.
grymster2007
New member
They looked at me funny all right, but no one shook my hand. Maybe that's because I'm so popular?
As for taking someone's gun away, I think that often people with a gun don't expect someone to just take it from them and that makes it much easier to just take it from them. Maybe the fact that they have a gun in their hand gives them some false confidence.
Krav Maga
I have been taking Krav Maga since my time in the IDF in the late 90's and I continue to take and instruct (lower levels) here in TN. Krav Maga is the Israeli Military hand to hand combat. Very much a "to the point" fighting style and not difficult to learn.
I think that unarmed combat is very important and probably more useful than armed combat in the general day to day interactions most civillians and LE come into contact with.
I have been taking Krav Maga since my time in the IDF in the late 90's and I continue to take and instruct (lower levels) here in TN. Krav Maga is the Israeli Military hand to hand combat. Very much a "to the point" fighting style and not difficult to learn.
I think that unarmed combat is very important and probably more useful than armed combat in the general day to day interactions most civillians and LE come into contact with.
I'm not a martial artist: last time I took any martial art was when I was twelve or thirteen years old. (Summer camp karate.) However, I've known some military guys, some of them with a full 25 or more years, who learned martial arts right along with their weapons training. They tell me that, properly taught and learned, the skills from any non-weapon martial art are at least 90% applicable to a fight using a gun or other weapon.
I'm seriously considering taking up judo, mostly to improve my physical fitness but figuring it will also help me be more aware of my body and more able to make *it* behave the way my mind tells it to.
I'm seriously considering taking up judo, mostly to improve my physical fitness but figuring it will also help me be more aware of my body and more able to make *it* behave the way my mind tells it to.
Techniques notwithstanding...
... when taught properly, martial arts teach: balance; timing; breath control; ability to focus and move under duress; ability to read a potential opponent, based on both body language (what does he seem likely to do) and stance (what will his current position and balance allow him to do in the next instant?); self-discipline.
Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm?
... when taught properly, martial arts teach: balance; timing; breath control; ability to focus and move under duress; ability to read a potential opponent, based on both body language (what does he seem likely to do) and stance (what will his current position and balance allow him to do in the next instant?); self-discipline.
Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm?
grymster2007
New member
Granted, those things would prove beneficial.... given someone that understands their limitations and more importantly, doesn't let over-inflated self-confidence put them at undue risk. And therein lies the thing I see wrong with most people practicing MA. My personal perception is that most (not all) people that practice the arts, can't help but develop misguided confidence that places them in more danger than had they not. Some flaw of the nature of humans I suppose, but in my mind it renders the whole idea useless..... or worse, for most people.
the harder you train...
... the harder it should be to get over-confident. Stuff works, except when it doesn't. There are plenty of times in training when it doesn't. Ideally, though, that teaches not to fixate on any given technique, and just keep moving and looking for openings.
To paraphrase Sun T'zu, the man who knows his enemy is powerful, but the man who knows himself (strengths and limitations) is stronger still.
... the harder it should be to get over-confident. Stuff works, except when it doesn't. There are plenty of times in training when it doesn't. Ideally, though, that teaches not to fixate on any given technique, and just keep moving and looking for openings.
To paraphrase Sun T'zu, the man who knows his enemy is powerful, but the man who knows himself (strengths and limitations) is stronger still.
JMHO
I live and loved the arts. Was very confident with who I was and what I could do. Then came mma it changed my mind. Then I learned about guns and it changed my mind again. In my humble opinion if a person no matter their stature can maintain their distance and see the laser dot and pull the trigger they will win every time even against even the best in the arts.
I live and loved the arts. Was very confident with who I was and what I could do. Then came mma it changed my mind. Then I learned about guns and it changed my mind again. In my humble opinion if a person no matter their stature can maintain their distance and see the laser dot and pull the trigger they will win every time even against even the best in the arts.
There is no argument that a gun, ready, does not trump empty hands
However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage.
There is also merit in suggesting that sometimes, the only options available are all pretty bad; if you have no idea how to pursue them, but have to try anyway, your options are that much worse.
And there is merit in suggesting that sometimes having at least some amount of training in handling a physical altercation will give you time to get your own weapon into play.
Of course, not every BG will have a firearm, or even a weapon. Now what will you do? Strongarm robbery may not justify deadly force in your area. Do you have any other options, or are you stuck with 1) do nothing and be a compliant victim, or 2) draw a weapon and risk aggravated assault charges if you are in one of those jurisdictions that does not allow deadly force or its threat against strongarm robbers?
However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage.
There is also merit in suggesting that sometimes, the only options available are all pretty bad; if you have no idea how to pursue them, but have to try anyway, your options are that much worse.
And there is merit in suggesting that sometimes having at least some amount of training in handling a physical altercation will give you time to get your own weapon into play.
Of course, not every BG will have a firearm, or even a weapon. Now what will you do? Strongarm robbery may not justify deadly force in your area. Do you have any other options, or are you stuck with 1) do nothing and be a compliant victim, or 2) draw a weapon and risk aggravated assault charges if you are in one of those jurisdictions that does not allow deadly force or its threat against strongarm robbers?
grymster2007
New member
Agreed. I once took a guy's gun from him. I was not quick enough to prevent the draw, but I closed the gap between us so fast that it completely shocked him when I wrenched it from his hand and knocked him to the floor. I think the gun made him over-confident and he assumed that merely pointing it would keep him safe.
OTOH, while I prevailed, my actions weren't so bright.... but that's what 20 year old kids do sometimes. These days, thirty years later, I would express my grievances against him in a courtroom.
+1 on Krav Maga training, it's simple enough to be assimilated quickly but it does work on the street. I have trained in several traditional arts and they are all great but there is a need to tweak them for SD. Marc MacYoung has a great book called "Taking It To the Streets" a must read for practitioners of all types.
I think it better to train thoroughly with a handful of techniques and be able to perform them during an adrenaline dump than to know 50 ways to defend against a firearm but get confused when tired and scared.
I also humbly submit that any technique which is designed to take an opponent to the ground be avoided, since you don't know where his buddies are.
That being said, knowing some good groundwork is helpful if the fight does go to the ground. I'm 5'10 and 170lbs, and there are plenty of wayyyy bigger people out there. Over the years I've gotten pretty good at not going to ground but it does happen. (busted a couple ribs on one of those concrete wheel stop thingys in a parking lot)
I think it better to train thoroughly with a handful of techniques and be able to perform them during an adrenaline dump than to know 50 ways to defend against a firearm but get confused when tired and scared.
I also humbly submit that any technique which is designed to take an opponent to the ground be avoided, since you don't know where his buddies are.
That being said, knowing some good groundwork is helpful if the fight does go to the ground. I'm 5'10 and 170lbs, and there are plenty of wayyyy bigger people out there. Over the years I've gotten pretty good at not going to ground but it does happen. (busted a couple ribs on one of those concrete wheel stop thingys in a parking lot)
stephen426
New member
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of the original post. We are not talking about martial artists against street fighters or martial arts against a loaded gun. I'm pretty sure the main point of the original post was to encourage us to supplement our self-defense training with some form of martial art.
I did a few years of Tae Kwon Do back high school and I still practice a little on my own. Am I going to find some street fighter to hone my skills? Heck no! Is it possible that a good street fighter will kick my butt? Most probably. Is it better to not know anything? DEFINITELY NOT!
It has also been mentioned several times, but I will say it again... It is often times the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome. Boxers will take shots that would knock most people down, if not out. They also know how to hit pretty darn hard. If you take a martial artists that competes based on points or contact, the boxer will mop the floor with him. Now if you take someone who is serious about their art and trains regularly, their chances of success improve dramatically.
I did a few years of Tae Kwon Do back high school and I still practice a little on my own. Am I going to find some street fighter to hone my skills? Heck no! Is it possible that a good street fighter will kick my butt? Most probably. Is it better to not know anything? DEFINITELY NOT!
It has also been mentioned several times, but I will say it again... It is often times the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome. Boxers will take shots that would knock most people down, if not out. They also know how to hit pretty darn hard. If you take a martial artists that competes based on points or contact, the boxer will mop the floor with him. Now if you take someone who is serious about their art and trains regularly, their chances of success improve dramatically.
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