To stir up old discontent... MA training

[GojuBrian]

I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.

And you know these "ma fighters" personally? You've seen them train? I'll bet you've seen people talking trash that said they were trained because they got their green belt when they were 14.

A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day. A real martial artist trains for several hours a week, is in good physical condition, and this does no good because you say so? What kind of training to you have?

For cops and other law enforcement who are bound by ROE's that do not allow for massive escalation of force without clear reasons, MA does have some points in getting a subdued or resistant person into cuffs. I can see why some would take those classes as an adjunct to real fighting. in a real drop the gloves and spit out the teeth fight, it does not work.

My instructor (local PD SWAT member) is a 4th degree blackbelt, his brother who trains with us is an FBI agent. They both have used our training with great success on th3 d34dly st4eets!!

 

[markj]

A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day.

MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.

Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we?

How do you CCW while wearing a Gi?

Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...

 

[GojuBrian]

MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.

Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense. Not adequate enough though. Judo implements no strikes where is where it starts.

Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we?

You know they were blackbelts? I can get a blackbelt off ebay,doesn't make me a blackbelt now does it? I can get a blackbelt from my local tkd in 18months with no prior training. Doesn't make me a blackbelt does it?

You knew these people were blackbelts and you watched how they train? Just a bunch of talk.
Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol...

How do you CCW while wearing a Gi?

Easier than summer clothes my friend.

Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...

I have no use for them.


It's all in the training, the training has to be good. Going twice a week for one hour and working on your kata does not equal good ma training in my book.

 

[Hirlau]

No response from the OP in over a week; for his post

Wake Up, OP !

 

[Kyo]

From what I've seen, most BJJ folks don't consider Aikido any more "real" than TKD.

On the other hand, if I could resume training in any of the MAs I've taken, I'd go back to Aikido in a shrew's heartbeat.

Then again, I'm far from convinced that BJJ/UFC/whatever they're calling it this week is any more applicable than Aikido for anyone other than a full-time cage fighter.

Well, most folks are ignorant about it. In a close range situation, I don't want training to hit the guy. I want the training that will let me disarm him, pin him, and make him cry like a little girl with one hand. The fact that Aikido has no attacks is testament to how focused it is on disabling someone instead of hitting/kicking someone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ this is a half way example. It is another form where they do include attacking. but in close quarters I don't think you can get better then this, you are moving, and forcing them into movement that they don't know.

 

[MLeake]

Aikido has no attacks?

Morihei Ueshiba himself said that his aikido was 90% atemi, or the strikes and feints that help set up a technique. Most of the good aikidoka I know have backgrounds in karate, TKD, jujutsu, judo, kenpo, wrestling, etc. It's rare to find a serious aikidoka who started with aikido. So there are a wide variety of atemi potentially available to aikido folk.

As far as MA vs bouncers vs brawlers, it depends in large part on who the MA, bouncer, or brawler are.

I will say this, though: If you don't train in one way or another for physical confrontations, you will most likely have your butt handed to you by most MA, bouncers, or brawlers.

But since this is a firearm tactics forum, and we don't want to get too far afield, one of the main benefits to aikido is that it offers a lot of good ways to evade an initial attack or slip out of a grab, hence buying the time necessary to get to your weapon.

Face it, none of us are in condition yellow all the time. Bad people who aren't incredibly stupid will probably do their best not to give advance notice of ill intentions. Training that helps build up evasion and avoidance relexes at first contact could come in very handy; this becomes more true, the deeper your concealment rig is buried.

Obviously, if we had advance notice, we would either a) not still be in the area or b) already have weapon in hand. a) is the better option, when available and ethical (IE we don't leave an elderly woman in harm's way when we leave, etc)

 

[MLeake]

Blue Steel said:

(with regard to pushing a semi-auto's slide out of battery to disable it)
"If you're close enough to try this technique you'll probably have better luck with a disarm technique and just take the turds gun away from him."

First, I agree. Please not post 1 on this thread; if the shooter knows what he's doing, it's very easy to counter this technique. I don't advocate the pushing the slide technique unless you are point blank and have no other option but to do anything to buy time.

It's a lot better idea to get out of the way of the muzzle, and do something along the lines of kotogaeshi to turn the muzzle back on the shooter, and either take the gun away or break his trigger finger - if it works. In any case, getting out of the way and redirecting the muzzle gives you a twofer strategy, while you go for your own weapon.

It's a better idea to not be there in the first place, but we don't always have that option.

 

[Wanpaku1]

Martial Arts?

I am not claiming to be some sort of master of MA. Just giving my viewpoint. Over the years I've trained Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Muy Thai, boxing and mixed. I've learned a lot of useful and completely useless information for the real world (from alll of them), but I have learned a lot about mindset, body movements, anticipation of opponents actions etc. Just for that, I would say that the training has been worthwhile.

The group I work out with now has a pretty diverse MA background and we all bring what we know, but one of the most interesting and useful things we have is a bunch of training knives, guns and other weapons. It is interesting to see the dynamic of a training session change when, in the middle of sparring, a knife or a gun or a bat (or multiple weapons) is thrown on the mat. It is a totally different mindset when it changes from a "how do I disable/control this guy" to "how do I get control of that weapon or keep him from getting control of that weapon." Changes your priorities real quick.

Martial arts is very useful as long as you are training for the real world and not just to get a pretty colored belt or compete in an overly refereed match.

 

[Kyo]

Priorities change, but when it comes to a weapon too many focus on the weapon part. Instead of worrying about the weapon shouldn't you be worried about disabling the guy who is focused on the weapon?

 

[markj]

Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense.

Judo teaches you how to land on the ground and not get hurt, I recommend learning this first in any MA training program. Also useful as a bouncer with the holds etc. This was in the early 70s BTW.

You know they were blackbelts?

Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol

I did have a life outside of work dude. Used to fight golden gloves way back when.

MA isnt the end all, do not get into the mind set that it is or you will get your rear handed to you. Lots of very tough people out there.

So just how do you carry in a gi? mine had no pockets

I also disarmed a few at work, took their weapons right from them but I have training. Got shot once too, also stabbed in the back of my neck. A bouncers life isnt all looking good and picking up chicks. Was over 20 years ago, I have moved on....

 

[grymster2007]

I'm not real big on the MA. I've just seen too many "expert" MA guys get the crap kicked out of them by a good street fighter. I've been in quite a number of street fights myself and the MA guys I've fought have fared no better and no worse than others. I'm a pretty big guy, but had the most difficulty with little guys and really, really big guys, but their MA experience seemed to matter not.

I have a brother that wrestled throughout high school, into college, then some amateur free style and made it to the Olympic tryouts in '92. I think I could have made a lot of money matching him up against martial arts guys.

Don't get me wrong. Training in hand-to-hand combat is a good thing for most people. I just think a lot of people learn a lot of over-dramatic fluff that merely serves to build dangerously inflated confidence.

 

[MLeake]

It's about the artist, more than the art... but the art helps

For that matter, I wrestled back when. And a lot of the guys I work out with are cops and prison guards. You might say we have a pretty practical mindset. I avoid schools that are too kata or tournament oriented. Not my thing.

You may have missed the earlier post about one of the guys from my current school successfully disarming criminals on multiple occasions, in his work as a narc. I think he found his jujutsu and aikido training up to the task. Then again, he trains hard, with survival as a motivator. Some people just train for their ego.

Note the fable about the hound and the hare: the hound was only running for his dinner, whereas the hare was running for his life...

I'll agree that flash is overrated. Belts may be utterly meaningless, depending on the organization. OTOH, distance, timing, movement, and balance are always useful. I've found myself incorporating aikido principles in activities ranging from skiing to piloting aircraft to handling horses.

Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners?

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs.

 

[grymster2007]

Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners?

Nope. The McDojo guys are a joke, I'm talking about the real deal. In my experience, while the serious ones were better, I still didn't think their efforts quite prepared them for what they faced.

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs.

The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did. But from what I've seen and experienced, martial arts experts and boxers didn't stand a chance against these guys. Not that I recommend gaining hand-to-hand combat abilities through dangerous and/or illegal activities.

... these days I actually recommend love, not war.

 

[riggins_83]

A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe
your friend wouldn't happen to be jet li would he?
and you wouldn't happen to be mel gibson would you?

A classic . That's why I carry a 1911.. let's see Jet Li try to take that gun down with one hand!!!

 

[samurai30047]

Martial Arts

I've been hearing the same argument for years. What styles best. Sounds like a bad B movie. It depends on the person of course. I've been in law enforcement for 22 years and half of that in prison. Not all of us take our job seriously but those of us that do have gotten into some type of fighting style. Even my 350 lbs coworker that is somewhat famous for his butterbean style k.o's has had some training in jujitsu. It depends on the situation. For disarm techniques I have to think that Commando Krav Maga is the best one out there. I did it for a while, it's expensive but so are hospital bills. There's no substitute for hands on. I love videos and movies but when we have a minute at work we'll spar a little. Getting choked only hurts till you tap.

 

[5whiskey]

The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did.

And that is why you see some great Martial Artists knocked out by them. It's not that the Martial Artist isn't proficient, or couldn't be VERY dangerous. It's the mindset. Most MAs don't have a desire to do Mortal Combat for lifestyle, regardless of consequences. It's that attitude that "I want to be the baddest man on the block, even if I have to go to prison to do it" that makes one ESPECIALLY dangerous... as they've been in more life and death situations than anyone else just because they choose to put themselves there.

On the other hand, most MAs are taught discipline and restraint. They don't have the desire to cause physical harm, they just know how to should the need arise. They doesn't mean they have a weak mind, it's just an apples to oranges comparison on mindset.

 

[MLeake]

So, you are basically saying that if you can't take on the baddest of the bad, there's no point in training at all.

In which case, there's no point in taking on anybody, but why worry?

 

[fastbolt]

In a way this thread reminds me of conversations among martial arts students back in the early 70's, especially when I read the term "streetfighter". That takes me back.

Most self defense students, and even many intermediate beginners with their shodan or nidan ranking (for those arts which offered belt rankings), were always talking about being able to defend themselves against 'a streetfighter'.

There were always the 'dojo tigers' to be found, too.

I've had an active involvement in the arts for 38 years and spent the better part of almost 3 decades in LE. I have yet to figure out what an actual 'streetfighter' is supposed to be, although I've met a fair number of folks who were willing to fight anyone else, including LE. Some had training and some didn't. Some had local jail & prison time behind them and some didn't. Some had US or foreign military time behind them and some didn't. Some had some foreign criminal activity behind them and some didn't. If they weren't in-custody somewhere they were walking around on the streets. I guess you could say that if they fought while on the streets they were 'streetfighters'. Dunno.

Training in the arts can be a very worthwhile pursuit, although the reason for becoming involved many vary quite a bit from one person to the next. Self defense, sport, physical fitness, physical activity as a hobby or to compliment another favored physical pursuit, because of a job/profession, pursuit of the art, spiritual aspirations, etc., etc. Sometimes people come to it for one reason and stay for quite another. Sometimes people dabble in it and lose interest.

Hobby, rounding out a skill set for a specific set of anticipated circumstances, mindset, lifestyle, etc ... lots of choices.

 

[GojuBrian]

My best guess is the term 'streetfighter' is used for the everyday non-trained brawler one might encounter while out on the town or something along those lines,lol.

Martial arts ,like gun defense, is best implemented by training the way you would fight, but first determine why you are doing martials arts, then determine the best tool for the job.
There is a mindset to have and there is no way to train for every scenario.

Barking that a thug would own a martial artist is very generalized stereotyping typical of someone too lazy to train imo.

 

[rburch]

Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

I may be wrong, but to my way of thinking that Korean was the only true Martial Artist you fought.

Although really streetfighting and boxing are Martial Arts in the basic meaning of the term.