Thoughts on 22 for self defense?
- Thread starter CoffeeShooter
- Start date
Onward Allusion
New member
22LR can be an effective SD cartridge. Obviously there are better cartridges.
I sometimes carry a S&W 43C in an inside coat pocket in a pocket holster. It has a Crimson Trace grip laser and is light enough to not cause any sag with the coat. A shot to the privates, neck/sternum, face will stop most guys. The 43C is a backup. My EDC is a G27.
Would I ever carry just the 43C? Sure. It wouldn't give me as much comfort as my 40 though.
Also, the only way I would carry 22LR for SD is with a revolver.
I sometimes carry a S&W 43C in an inside coat pocket in a pocket holster. It has a Crimson Trace grip laser and is light enough to not cause any sag with the coat. A shot to the privates, neck/sternum, face will stop most guys. The 43C is a backup. My EDC is a G27.
Would I ever carry just the 43C? Sure. It wouldn't give me as much comfort as my 40 though.
Also, the only way I would carry 22LR for SD is with a revolver.
massmanute
Inactive
Metric provided a link to a must-read article. It is one of the few to have made a serious study of the adequacy of the .22 long rifle as a defense round. It might not be a perfect study, but it is sure a lot better than unsupported opinion. The article analyzes statistics from a large number of shootings, and if you look at the various results it seems that overall there isn't all that much difference from one round to the other, including the .22.
For example, the average number of rounds to incapacitate was lowest for the .22 among all of the handgun rounds, which is a very favorable statistic, but the percentage of encounters that did not incapacitate was highest for the .22, which is an unfavorable statistic.
Unfortunately, the one statistic that really matters is not in the table, which is what percentage of the time did a .22 result in a successful defense. For example, in what percentage of the encounters did the bad guy not become incapacitated but also did not press an attack?
Perhaps more to the point, the statistics do not show what percentage of encounters ended with the good guy being safe without any shots being fired. This is the most favorable outcome of all, and it is almost certainly the most common when a gun is involved because the mere sight a gun, regardless of caliber, will usually cause an assailant to break off any thought of attack.
As to reliability, maybe it's a good idea to buy a better brand of ammo and/or make sure your gun is not guilty of light primer strikes. Of the thousands of rounds of .22 I have fired I can only recall one misfire. How many misfires did you see during the biathlon events at the just-concluded winter Olympics? If .22 ammo were as unreliable as some here would have you believe it certainly wouldn't be used in Olympic competition.
For example, the average number of rounds to incapacitate was lowest for the .22 among all of the handgun rounds, which is a very favorable statistic, but the percentage of encounters that did not incapacitate was highest for the .22, which is an unfavorable statistic.
Unfortunately, the one statistic that really matters is not in the table, which is what percentage of the time did a .22 result in a successful defense. For example, in what percentage of the encounters did the bad guy not become incapacitated but also did not press an attack?
Perhaps more to the point, the statistics do not show what percentage of encounters ended with the good guy being safe without any shots being fired. This is the most favorable outcome of all, and it is almost certainly the most common when a gun is involved because the mere sight a gun, regardless of caliber, will usually cause an assailant to break off any thought of attack.
As to reliability, maybe it's a good idea to buy a better brand of ammo and/or make sure your gun is not guilty of light primer strikes. Of the thousands of rounds of .22 I have fired I can only recall one misfire. How many misfires did you see during the biathlon events at the just-concluded winter Olympics? If .22 ammo were as unreliable as some here would have you believe it certainly wouldn't be used in Olympic competition.
The reason I mentioned Gunbroker is that if you are patient and persistent, you can get very good deals. In the past few months I have gotten a police turn in Ruger P90 (45acp) and Beretta PX4 (40 caliber) on bids of $170-something apiece. At those price points, the extra $50 for shipping and FFL is unimportant. You will not beat that kind of deal at a pawn shop or gun show. Retail is a joke compared to what you can find online if you take your time and figure things out.
CoffeeShooter
New member
Something to keep in mind tallball. One thing I kee considering though is for about 620 I could buy micro 380 for basic set defense and a 22 pistol for cheap target practice. Would practice with primary carry of course but extra practice with a cheaper round could also save additional funds in long run
Used guns on the internet come with no warranty, return policy, physical inspection,nothing to ensure that it will work reliably other than the seller's word.
Nobody throws away a gun that is inaccurate or unreliable, nobody sends a car to the salvage yard. All of the unreliable, inaccurate,unwanted guns are sold again until they're lost or destroyed.
I would not recommend going to the internet auction sites to find your first and maybe only defensive pistol, especially since your opportunity to really test it out is limited. Buying one locally, in person, that's different. You get to look the guy right in the eyes, look at every scratch.
Nobody throws away a gun that is inaccurate or unreliable, nobody sends a car to the salvage yard. All of the unreliable, inaccurate,unwanted guns are sold again until they're lost or destroyed.
I would not recommend going to the internet auction sites to find your first and maybe only defensive pistol, especially since your opportunity to really test it out is limited. Buying one locally, in person, that's different. You get to look the guy right in the eyes, look at every scratch.
Stats Shooter
New member
when I was in graduate school, I didn't have much money. I wanted a pistol. So I bought this for $140 at the time.
A P64 Makarov
It is all steel and in about 3000 rounds I have had no Fte's or FTF that wasn't related to cheap Russian target ammo. With quality ammo it is 100%. It is VERY accurate and it has a SA/DA trigger. It will also feed and shoot 380 auto But wolf makes steel cased ammo thats cheap for practice too but you need to order it. Hornady among others makes SD rounds for it. It is more powerful than a standard 380 auto.
The downside is it has a stiff DA pull even though the SA pull is only about 5lbs. It is also all steel so a bit heavier than the poly frame 380's. The sights are low wich makes it ideal for carry, but not a 25 yard target gun.
But it isn't junk, Despite having some pistols now worth over $2500, I still shoot the Makarov now and then and use it for an under-the-seat gun.
If you want a sold pistol and you are on a tight budget with enough stopping power for SD, this is your gun. The hammer spring hits like a truck and the recoil spring design makes it very reliable.
if you want, Wolff makes a Makarov spring refurbish kit that I have installed in mine which would be a good idea so that you KNOW the springs are good to go. cost is only about $9
A P64 Makarov
It is all steel and in about 3000 rounds I have had no Fte's or FTF that wasn't related to cheap Russian target ammo. With quality ammo it is 100%. It is VERY accurate and it has a SA/DA trigger. It will also feed and shoot 380 auto But wolf makes steel cased ammo thats cheap for practice too but you need to order it. Hornady among others makes SD rounds for it. It is more powerful than a standard 380 auto.
The downside is it has a stiff DA pull even though the SA pull is only about 5lbs. It is also all steel so a bit heavier than the poly frame 380's. The sights are low wich makes it ideal for carry, but not a 25 yard target gun.
But it isn't junk, Despite having some pistols now worth over $2500, I still shoot the Makarov now and then and use it for an under-the-seat gun.
If you want a sold pistol and you are on a tight budget with enough stopping power for SD, this is your gun. The hammer spring hits like a truck and the recoil spring design makes it very reliable.
if you want, Wolff makes a Makarov spring refurbish kit that I have installed in mine which would be a good idea so that you KNOW the springs are good to go. cost is only about $9
Last edited:
In The Ten Ring
New member
Coffeeshooter,
Here are some other options. Armslist.com. You can buy a pistol from someone in your own state in a face-to-face sale assuming your state doesn't have a law against it. Such is legal in my state.
My area has a local trade paper where gun buying and selling is commonplace. Most of the guns I have sold I sold that way and I have bought a few also.
The Makarov in any version is a solid defensive weapon. These came in 9x18 Makarov (Hornady makes hollowpoints for it) or .380. I miss the days when they were $150.00 new but maybe you can find a deal.
Try pawn shops. Sometimes you can find a deal.
Don't neglect a revolver. I bet my life on one or two J-frames every day.
I just did a Gunbroker search! I saw several Makarov's for $360.00 and under. You cannot go wrong with one of those.
*Back in the 1990's, a pizza delivery guy in Florida (I believe) was attacked by armed robbers. He killed one and wounded the other.
Here are some other options. Armslist.com. You can buy a pistol from someone in your own state in a face-to-face sale assuming your state doesn't have a law against it. Such is legal in my state.
My area has a local trade paper where gun buying and selling is commonplace. Most of the guns I have sold I sold that way and I have bought a few also.
The Makarov in any version is a solid defensive weapon. These came in 9x18 Makarov (Hornady makes hollowpoints for it) or .380. I miss the days when they were $150.00 new but maybe you can find a deal.
Try pawn shops. Sometimes you can find a deal.
Don't neglect a revolver. I bet my life on one or two J-frames every day.
I just did a Gunbroker search! I saw several Makarov's for $360.00 and under. You cannot go wrong with one of those.
*Back in the 1990's, a pizza delivery guy in Florida (I believe) was attacked by armed robbers. He killed one and wounded the other.
Last edited:
TruthTellers
New member
The price of .380 has dropped to 9mm levels the past few years. JHP ammo is about the same if that's your fancy, but for .380 I think one is better off using something that doesn't rely on expansion to do damage and Polycase is the best option I've found that doesn't cost an arm/leg and doesn't overpenetrate.
TruthTellers
New member
I understand the point that the author of that piece made, but the argument isn't over whether .22 is effective or not, it's about it's reliability. Obviously getting shot by a .22 Short or a .380 ACP doesn't matter to who's being shot, they've been shot!
Rimfire is just not as reliable as centerfire and a heeled bullet is not reliable in an autoloader, at least compared to a standard bullet. In a revolver it doesn't matter because revolvers don't feed ammo from a magazine into a chamber, there are multiple chambers with rounds already loaded in them.
I do think that .22 is better than .25 because .25 is prohibitively expensive to shoot compared to .22. With .22, you can practice a lot more and spend less than .25 ACP. One of the things I was wondering about with .25 ACP accuracy was, because most .25's are pocket guns, I was wondering if the small grips and tiny sights were detrimental to accuracy while the .22's where probably Ruger Mark pistols or other larger, more accurate guns.
Anyway, if I had to choose between a .22 and a .25, I would pick the .22 every time. I can practice with it more and more practice means more likely to hit the target where it needs hitting to stop it.
I think the article showed that .380 is not a bad choice because the guns are small, still quite shootable, and there are a lot of .380's to choose from and the ammunition is reasonable, at least compared to .25 and .32 ACP. The only issue I have is that most manufacturers who make .380's are single stack pocket guns, I want more companies to make larger double stack .380's that have better grips, triggers, and sights.
Now, some will say "Just buy a 9mm then!" but the thing is that no matter what, a .380 can always be made smaller than a 9mm. Take the new Sig P365, every gun manufacturer could make a similar size pistol that's a bit smaller and chamber it in .380. It would be a small sized, but a very fast and shootable pistol.
Stats Shooter
New member
if you follow my link in my post #48 below, you will see J&G sales has p64 Makarov pistols for $229. Put in a spring refurbish kit, shipping, and ffl transfer and you have a wayyy better than 22 or 25 cal pistol for $280
massmanute
Inactive
Focusing on the .22 caliber reliability issue for a minute, as I mentioned before, in the thousands of .22 caliber rounds I have shot I can only remember one misfire, and yet a lot of people on the gun discussion groups talk about frequent misfires they have experienced.
Most of the .22 caliber rounds that I have fired were fired quite a few years ago, so here is a hypothesis. Maybe current .22 ammo is not loaded to the same quality level today as it was a few decades ago. If so it could largely explain why I have not had the experience of frequent misfires that others report. Is that possible?
Alternatively, perhaps some people have guns that don't strike the primer hard enough. Anecdotally, this is known to be true in some cases because there some folks have noted that when they weakened the firing pin or hammer spring they started to get misfires.
What do you think? Is .22 ammo truly less reliable, and if so why is it so?
Most of the .22 caliber rounds that I have fired were fired quite a few years ago, so here is a hypothesis. Maybe current .22 ammo is not loaded to the same quality level today as it was a few decades ago. If so it could largely explain why I have not had the experience of frequent misfires that others report. Is that possible?
Alternatively, perhaps some people have guns that don't strike the primer hard enough. Anecdotally, this is known to be true in some cases because there some folks have noted that when they weakened the firing pin or hammer spring they started to get misfires.
What do you think? Is .22 ammo truly less reliable, and if so why is it so?
Cosmodragoon
New member
Budget is a funny thing. You've got to consider that this is something that you'll want to be using for a long time. If you are going to carry a firearm, you should be practicing/plinking on a regular basis so you will have ammo costs. Put the upfront price tag into perspective. It is okay to wait and save up a little more. It is also okay to be a little picky in what you get.
You will want a reliable handgun that is fun to shoot and that you will want to go out and practice with. That is easy to have in 9mm. The only challenge is that as guns get smaller and more concealable, they can get less good at that. This could help justify a .22 LR for now but you'll definitely want to get something in either 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 acp eventually. Think about how you will be carrying and look for sweet spots in the compromise between "good shooter" and "comfortable carry".
You will want a reliable handgun that is fun to shoot and that you will want to go out and practice with. That is easy to have in 9mm. The only challenge is that as guns get smaller and more concealable, they can get less good at that. This could help justify a .22 LR for now but you'll definitely want to get something in either 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 acp eventually. Think about how you will be carrying and look for sweet spots in the compromise between "good shooter" and "comfortable carry".
Mackie244Bud
New member
Hi CoffeeShooter,
So your looking for a CCW handgun, thinking about 22, thinking about a 22 and a 9mm combo.
I'll throw in my 2c for what it's worth..which is probably nothing..LOL
I would say that because you are on a budget forget splitting your limited budget into 2 cheap or inexpensive guns and invest what you would spend on 2 guns and 2 different kinds of ammo and get 1 good gun and the ammo to shoot through it so you can get comfortable with it.
That being said I would recommend a 9mm.
Find one that you will like to shoot, can be accurate with and then get to the range (as limited as that is) and put some rounds through it!
When I am looking into getting a new handgun I will spend a lot of time in Forums (multiple) and see what people think also knowing to take what I read with a grain of salt.
Another Forum I like is:
http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/index.php
Yes it's Florida based and I went to it when I was getting my Florida CCW License but I've stayed because it has great info not only on Florida licensing but guns in general.
Also if you are narrowing your search many manufacturers have their own forums such as Sig Talk Forum.
http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-forum/
Next I spend a lot of time on Youtube narrowing down my search by seeing what people I trust are saying about the guns I'm looking at and see them actually being handled and shot.
From all this I can usually take a handful of guns and narrow it down to say a couple.
During my search I hit the local Gun Shows to get a one on one with the guns I'm looking at..
much more informal than standing at a glass case at a gun store with the sales clerk watching you.
I want to actually pick them up and feel them in my hand..
Pull the trigger..
Does one feel much better than another..
After all of this is done my radar is zeroing in to a pretty tight window.
Lastly if you can...Shoot it!!
At rental prices and ammo a big reason that I've done the legwork is so I'm not renting a bunch of guns..at $10..00 a pop and their ammo that process can get expensive!
I just want this last step to finally convince me on my purchase.
The final step is to find MY gun of choice at the best possible price!
I check GunBroker but with a shipping charge of at least $25.00 plus and a FFL transfer of at least $20.00 I have to add $45.00 + to my gun of choice.
I purchased my M&P Shield this way.
My Sig Sauer P320 Compact RX I found at my local gun-store for $750.00.
A price that I have not seen since...anywhere!
So, I never not consider my local gun-stores..
Great deals can be found there and no shipping or FFL charges.
Another good search for guns is Gallery of Guns:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/powersearchnew.aspx
As far as a Gun...and your inability to probably shoot it before purchasing..
The above process will at least let you get it into your hands for a real feel.
Next I don't think that you could go wrong with.....
M&P Shield's are great guns that no one will knock and you'd be better off to take the $$$ you would spend on 2 guns and get this one gun..
Search out and find the best price.
With the Shield M2.0 out you can find great prices now on the original Shield..which is still a great gun.
Springfield Armory XD line..XDm..XDs they always get good reviews.
Though you'd probably need to find a used gun to meet your budget.
Same thing for a Glock..
And I'm a big Sig Sauer fan but for their price a used gun would have to do.
Lastly some links to guys that I like on YouTube..
Hickok45
https://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45/videos
Sootch00
https://www.youtube.com/user/sootch00/videos
Hegshot87
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvTo11dvddU
Gun Channels on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuTJvpa3NGc
Good luck with your search and ultimate decision..
Mackie244 / Bud
So your looking for a CCW handgun, thinking about 22, thinking about a 22 and a 9mm combo.
I'll throw in my 2c for what it's worth..which is probably nothing..LOL
I would say that because you are on a budget forget splitting your limited budget into 2 cheap or inexpensive guns and invest what you would spend on 2 guns and 2 different kinds of ammo and get 1 good gun and the ammo to shoot through it so you can get comfortable with it.
That being said I would recommend a 9mm.
Find one that you will like to shoot, can be accurate with and then get to the range (as limited as that is) and put some rounds through it!
When I am looking into getting a new handgun I will spend a lot of time in Forums (multiple) and see what people think also knowing to take what I read with a grain of salt.
Another Forum I like is:
http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/index.php
Yes it's Florida based and I went to it when I was getting my Florida CCW License but I've stayed because it has great info not only on Florida licensing but guns in general.
Also if you are narrowing your search many manufacturers have their own forums such as Sig Talk Forum.
http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-forum/
Next I spend a lot of time on Youtube narrowing down my search by seeing what people I trust are saying about the guns I'm looking at and see them actually being handled and shot.
From all this I can usually take a handful of guns and narrow it down to say a couple.
During my search I hit the local Gun Shows to get a one on one with the guns I'm looking at..
much more informal than standing at a glass case at a gun store with the sales clerk watching you.
I want to actually pick them up and feel them in my hand..
Pull the trigger..
Does one feel much better than another..
After all of this is done my radar is zeroing in to a pretty tight window.
Lastly if you can...Shoot it!!
At rental prices and ammo a big reason that I've done the legwork is so I'm not renting a bunch of guns..at $10..00 a pop and their ammo that process can get expensive!
I just want this last step to finally convince me on my purchase.
The final step is to find MY gun of choice at the best possible price!
I check GunBroker but with a shipping charge of at least $25.00 plus and a FFL transfer of at least $20.00 I have to add $45.00 + to my gun of choice.
I purchased my M&P Shield this way.
My Sig Sauer P320 Compact RX I found at my local gun-store for $750.00.
A price that I have not seen since...anywhere!
So, I never not consider my local gun-stores..
Great deals can be found there and no shipping or FFL charges.
Another good search for guns is Gallery of Guns:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/powersearchnew.aspx
As far as a Gun...and your inability to probably shoot it before purchasing..
The above process will at least let you get it into your hands for a real feel.
Next I don't think that you could go wrong with.....
M&P Shield's are great guns that no one will knock and you'd be better off to take the $$$ you would spend on 2 guns and get this one gun..
Search out and find the best price.
With the Shield M2.0 out you can find great prices now on the original Shield..which is still a great gun.
Springfield Armory XD line..XDm..XDs they always get good reviews.
Though you'd probably need to find a used gun to meet your budget.
Same thing for a Glock..
And I'm a big Sig Sauer fan but for their price a used gun would have to do.
Lastly some links to guys that I like on YouTube..
Hickok45
https://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45/videos
Sootch00
https://www.youtube.com/user/sootch00/videos
Hegshot87
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvTo11dvddU
Gun Channels on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuTJvpa3NGc
Good luck with your search and ultimate decision..
Mackie244 / Bud
Last edited:
I would guess there is more variation between the common loads these days. With premium hyper-velocity ammo, my last misfire was literally years ago -- thousands of trouble-free rounds. But with some of the cheap stuff (e.g. Remington bulk ammo), you're essentially guaranteed to get multiple duds in every box.
There are also a lot of cheaply-made .22 pistols out there in disguise these days. There were always cheap .22's (e.g. Jennings), but these days a zinc alloy, Umarex-made pistol may carry a major brand name, a high price, and be specifically designed to look like a pistol formerly known for top quality standards.
I'm convinced that .22 is viable for self-defense, but there is no denying that the market is more of a mine-field to navigate than, say, 9mm service pistols. There are a lot of mistakes that are easy to make.
If I had to make a specific recommendation, CDI Sales on Gunbroker has had a good reputation for many years. They sell military surplus handguns. They typically have dozens in the $200-$300 range. Currently they have CZ83 's, Beretta 84's (both 380acp) and third generation S&W in that price range (the 915 is better than the 910). I got a nice 9mm S&W 915 from them recently for the asking price of $245. It wasn't shot much. It's very hard to beat those deals. I have bought half a dozen or so handguns from them over the past few years and have been very satisfied.
Last edited:
In The Ten Ring
New member
Tallball,
Those are interesting suggestions.......I had totally forgotten about the Smith and Wesson budget 910/915 line.
There is also this......9mm Beretta, if you want to contact your "inner John McClain."
https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1BER92S
Those are interesting suggestions.......I had totally forgotten about the Smith and Wesson budget 910/915 line.
There is also this......9mm Beretta, if you want to contact your "inner John McClain."
https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1BER92S
I’d pick the .25 for centerfire...
While most people that shoot .22 defensively also load CCI, you can get failures to fire with them, as well. May be rare, but if you look, you’ll see reports of them. That is just an issue with the design of rimfire ammunition. It is a reason why it was pulled from military use as quickly as it was (really, countries that held onto it the longest didn’t have the highest military spending budgets). Rimfire usually works, just centerfire tends to work a lot more consistently.
Can you get a bad primer, and a failure to fire, with centerfire? Of course, but with a good manufacturer, it is less likely than rimfire (judging the gun is working correctly). Look at the 5.7mm compared to .22 Magnum. Both are similar enough ballistically that people consider them competition (PMR-30 compared to the FiveSeven). While the .22 Magnum is definitely cheaper, it is also rimfire. If you want centerfire, you pay the extra for it.
Ammo costs money. While I understand that .22 is a lot cheaper than .25, if you are looking for a gun that small, you have a specific reason for it, it really is up to you to decide if the ammo costs over .22 is worth more reliable ignition. Let’s say you are looking at Beretta Bobcat... if cost of ammo is so important, they make both .22 and .25. Buy a .22 to practice, and a .25 to carry (still recommend putting some rounds through the .25, somewhat regularly). I will add that you need to be more careful with rimfire over centerfire, if you plan to dry-fire practice.
Try to imagine a duel between a guy wielding a .25 Bobcat (the best available .25 or close to it) facing off vs. someone with a Volquartsen .22LR set up for the Steel Challenge. Bonus laughs if Volquartsen guy also happens to be wearing a leather jacket.
Obsessive focus on primer reliability can lead to bad conclusions. Assuming quality ammo, we're talking about a (roughly) 1-in-1,000 event, and when it does occur, it's the simplest of all malfunctions to clear -- it's never a "jam" and takes less than a second to clear.
I'd place my bet on Volquartsen guy, even if I knew half of his (first) magazine was filled with dummy cartridges.