This Really Gets To Me .... Hunting Caliber Discussion.

[MLeake]

I'm curious as to whether there were any other questions asked, or conditions posed, that the OP might have missed?

For instance, if the customer said he hunted in the Appalachians in places where typical shots were in the 300yd range, that could have biased the answer toward the magnum.

Or if he'd said he wanted the ability to take larger game.

Or if he'd indicated an interest in getting into hand loading - in which case the .300 would afford a really great versatility.

If, on the other hand, the guy was really a new shooter with little or no rifle knowledge, the .300WM seems like a pretty weird recommendation. If I go over .30-06 recoil levels, it's only because there is a perceived need to do so. It's not something I'd do for fun; and, as noted, commercial .300WM is not cheap.

 

[sc928porsche]

Here we go again. Someone posts something about using a 300 magnum on deer and most chime in stating that it is too much gun to use. Granted, there are many fine cartridges out there that are suitable for taking deer and each one has its advantages and disadvantages. Mostly, it comes to personal preference.

Many deer have been taken by the .22lr although it is illegal and done at close range under a spot light with head shots. I have no personal knowledge of this except what has been related to me by game officials. On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen one that was taken with a 458 WM. That leaves a lot of cartridges to choose from.

Usually when asked for advice for a hunting caliber I ask what they intend to hunt and the type terrain that is involved. Once the cartridge has been narrowed down to a couple, I suggest that the person fire a few rounds to see what he or she is comfortable with. Also keep in mind that most hunters do not have a large selection of rifles that they hunt with. Usually its just one.

Those that choose the 300WM do so for several reasons. It has a flat trajectory. It has a lot of downrange energy. The only true downsides to it are the recoil and the weight. The weight is about 2 lbs more than the regular rifle and the recoil is at the high end of the medium recoil rifles. If either of these are uncomfortable then the rifle is not for you. But if it is not for you, it dosnt mean its not for someone else.

 

[Big Pard]

Look guys, the 300 Win Mag is an awesome deer round especially at long range. Now its not something to start a kid off with and neither is a 223 or 22-250 in my opinion. It takes a skilled hand to consistanly kill deer cleanly with a centerfire 22 because a marginal hit is hard to track and recover. What people think is the best is as varied as snow flakes. When someone chooses a deer rifle they need to select what fits them best then choose a cartridge that they feel comfortable shooting.

 

[jimbob86]

It's illegal to hunt with a .22 caliber round in many states.

I surmise that a .22 caliber is sufficient (and legal) in places where the deer average 100 lbs or so, and shots are short.

I have been back East ...... y'all have some small deer.

 

[jimbob86]

.....that said, 300 WinMag is overkill.

 

[taylorce1]

Legal caliber by State or Providence for deer.

I surmise that a .22 caliber is sufficient (and legal) in places where the deer average 100 lbs or so, and shots are short.

I have been back East ...... y'all have some small deer.

Since this keeps coming up I'll post it again. .22 calibers are legal in a lot of areas and not just where the deer are small. If you choose the right bullet then the .22 caliber cartridges become a viable deer rifle.

Alabama- centerfire
Alaska- centerfire
Alberta- .23 and up centerfire
Arizona- centerfire
Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire
California- centerfire
Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards
Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area
Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader
Florida- centerfire
Georgia- .22 and up centerfire
Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think
Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?)
Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol only
Indiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols
Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state.
Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum)
kentucky- centerfire
Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire
Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up!
Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though.
Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs
Mass- Shotgun/ML
Michigan- centerfire in certain areas
Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire
Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find
Missouri- centerfire
Montana- No restrictions
Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards
Nevada- .22 centerfire and up
New Hampshire- centerfire
New Jersey- shotgun only
New Mexico- centerfire
New York- centerfire
North Carolina- No restrictions
North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire
Nova Scotia- .23 and up
Ohio- Shotgun/ML
Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet
Ontario- centerfire
Oregon- .22 centerfire and up
Pennsylvania- centerfire
Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up
Rhode Island- shotgun/ML
Saskatchewan- .24 and up
South Carolina- centerfire
South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME
Tennessee- centerfire
Texas- centerfire
Utah- centerfire
vermont- No restriction
Virginia- .23 centerfire and up
Washington- .24 centerfire and up
West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire
Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up
Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up

 

[300magman]

Soooo...where does popular consent fall on my woods rounds (45/70 405gr @ 1600fps) Is that cool with everyone here because its old and slow? Or is it a terrible thing to be ashamed of because its massive?


Really, why everyone is so judgemental about what cartridges/calibers can or should be used for what is beyond me. Little guns work, big guns work too...carry a gun that covers the situations you will encounter and load it with the smartest bullet for the job.
To the original statement of a 300 win, I would probably prefer a 7mm mag for its superior ballistics with similar weight projectiles, but that's because I have a lot of longer range shooting opportunities. But I will not discourage anyone from using a 300 win mag for deer, no more than I would discourage someone from using a 243.

I think people need to think more about "what works well" as opposed to what "just works". (That applies to BIG and LITTLE guns)
Or as Art Eatman put it:

If it'll bust Bambi's neck, it's big enough. If it's uncomfortable for your shoulder, it's too big.

 

[MLeake]

300magman, and the other magnum proponents:

As far as I am concerned, use what you want. I think the issue many of us have is not whether the .300 is overkill, per se, but whether it was an appropriate recommendation from a gun shop owner to an apparent gun novice for a first whitetail rifle.

Call me crazy, but I think steering most new shooters toward a .300WinMag as their first centerfire rifle (or so it seems to have been from the OP's description) would quite often lead to that new shooter deciding to quit shooting.

OTOH, for a person who already shoots, a .300 makes a nice addition to the collection.

FWIW, I want a .45-70. I suspect I'd load it down a bit for whitetail, but that would depend on expected ranges, or on what large predators I might anticipate encountering in the area.

 

[HKFan9]

I prefer a .243 personally.... and a .308 for bear. The popular cartridge around here is by far the .30-06 however. I can see that if you wanted one rifle for deer and bear the .30-06 works great..... but again... whats the fun in having just ONE rifle.

I tell my customers the same thing. I generally recommend the .308 or .30-06 for the simple fact you can find ammo for them ANYWHERE. I tend to favor recommending the .308 for the simple reason that usually if the customer has to ask... it will be his/her first rifle... which means they will also want a scope... and since ill be the one most likely mounting the scope for them.... it is much easier to find an AFFORDABLE scope on everyone budget that will fit better on a short action.

Example would be first time hunter on a budget... set him up with a used Savage .308... that can easily accept a Nikon Prostaff riflescope for $100 more.


Now on the other side of the spectrum... I feel bad sometimes.... but when guys carrying in the .300 Win Mags... and the .300RUM's and what not... to trade in... we tell them flat out we can't pay a lot for it. People might get a little bent out of shape... but lets face it.... most, specially in PA.. are overkill... and they sit and collect dust on the used rack. They sit for a long time, and the ammo is $$.

 

[rickyrick]

Not, a deer hunter......but I dont shoot things further than i can drag them.

but i know the kind of snooty hunters that roll in every year with their 4 wheelers and such.....and big guns

In texas any center fire is legal

 

[44 AMP]

Anti-magnum snobbery?

More like common sense, with an anti-idiot bias.

Having been around a while before the advent of the all knowing and infallible internet, I lived through the early days of "magnum mania", and one thing I can tell you is that there are an awful lot of people who would have been better off had "magnumitis" not taken hold of the shooting public.

Is a .300 Win Mag too much gun for whitetail? In many people's hands, yes. Is the .223 enough? In many people's hands, no! In the hands of a skilled rifleman, either will do just fine, and so will a few dozen other cartridges.

First of all, forget all about the idea that a magnum, or even an elephant gun will make up for a bad hit. It won't. Anyone who thinks it will needs to be educated before they actually go hunting! And anyone who tells you it will is either an idiot, or is deliberately feeding you a line of BS. A gutshot deer is a gutshot deer, no magnum makes up for not making a good shot!

Pros of the magnums are;
Flat shooting (easier to hit with at long range)
Increased power (not often necessary)

Cons are:
Increased recoil
Increased muzzle blast
Increased cost of ammo
Decreased barrel life

Now, the last one is seldom any concern to a deer hunter, but the first three certainly are, because they combine to make the magnum rifle much more of a chore to shoot. Not the one (or two) shots actually taken at game, but the practice shooting everyone needs to do to become confident and proficient with their rifle. In general, most deer hunters won't shoot the magnums as much, or as often as they will smaller rounds. This translates into a decreased level of skill with the rifle. No, not everyone, some folks practice and are wuite good, but many others don't, and aren't.

Many are the articles, and many are the hunters and guides I have talked to who cringe when someone shows up at deer camp with a magnum rifle. Their experience (and mine) is the odds are that the magum guy is going to try to shoot way beyond his ability, trusting in the myth of the magnum to make up for any of his own shortcomings.

No, not everyone is like this, but enough are to create the stereotype, and keep it alive.

Starting a new shooter out with a .300 Magnum is akin to starting a new pistol shooter out with a .44 Mag. It is a dis-service to them, and to our sport in general. Guns like those are specialty pieces, and perform well in the hands of someone who has learned how to use them well. But for most beginners, the learning curve is simply too steep. Many either don't practice enough to become skilled, or simply give up shooting all together.

The guys in the gun club will usually give you sound advice. The guy in the gun store is going to sell you something to make money. More often than not, he doesn't care what.

 

[jagwire]

A gutshot deer is a gutshot deer, no magnum makes up for not making a good shot!

I agree with 44 AMP. Shot placement is more important. Looking back at history nobody proved this point better than W.D.M. Bell (aka Karamojo Bell). He killed over 1000 elephants in his lifetime with a 7x57 mauser. He was able to do this because he knew how to place the shot correctly.

For deer, as long as the shot placement is good, magnums and standards will both do the job.

 

[Edward429451]

Agreed, and the increased range that is possible that comes with the Goober Magnums probably encourages irresponsible shooting rather people should be a better hunter and get closer. There's probably a small handfull of people who could use the extended range of the Mags.

I remember reading a very old magazine article and I was astounded to read that ...one better be sure to have the responsible 200 ftlbs for a clean kill on big game...

 

[SRH78]

So, I'm in my local gun shop today, and minding my own business, when a young '20-something' kid comes in to ask the owner what the best caliber for hunting deer would be.

The owner automatically says, "That's easy ... 300 WinMag!"

If someone needs to ask, then I agree that the 300 WinMag is not a very good recomendation.

Why aren't more people hunting deer with .223, 22-250, or .243 these days?

Plenty of people use 243s but the reason not many use 22 caliber rifles is simple. The larger calibers simply work better.

It could be because 40% of the average hunters out there have never had any professional firearms training. Therefore, they need the larger caliber for a 'clean kill'. They don't care about the whole deer for meat, and they're only worried about filling their quota.

It takes professional training to hit the vitals of a deer with a rifle? As for ruining meat, I have shot turkeys and cottontails with a 30-06 and 45-70 without ruining the meat. I don't have any problems ruining a lot of meat on deer or hogs with those cartridges either. On the other hand, I have seen a 257 Roberts ruin a lot of meat.

See, and I thought it was that people used calibers that were too big or too powerful (e.g., the magnums) to compensate for less than ideal shot placement so as to be able to drop the animal more readily via massive blood loss. Silly me.

There is no compensating for poor shot placement. On the other hand, there is compensation for a less than ideal shot opportunity. In other words, a shot that probably shouldn't be taken with a 223 might be perfectly ok with a 270.

If a man wants to kill a deer with a 300 Win Mag it will work fine, I promise.

Yes it will. While the 300 mag isn't really a cartridge I would recommend for deer, it will certainly get the job done.

So will a 22lr

I have seen jackrabbits run a long way with 22 lr hollowpoints through both lungs. I guess deer aren't as tough as jackrabbits though.

I think people need to think more about "what works well" as opposed to what "just works". (That applies to BIG and LITTLE guns)

This

You can beat on stuff with a wrench and you turn a screw with a knife but wouldn't a hammer and a screwdriver be better choices?

 

[Usertag]

Why in gods sake would you use a .300WM on a deer. Is the owner trying to blow the deer into a billion pieces. I preffer a .30-30 Winchester Magnum.

 

[SRH78]

Since it is where this thread started, what would ya'll have recommended as an all around "deer cartridge" if you had been the shop owner?

 

[HKFan9]

.243 is my preferred choice.

 

[Edward429451]

.308/180

 

[bullethole1]

.223 on a deer? nah too much suffering for the animal to have to deal with for the last painful moments or even hours to leave their life with. Now thats the majority of deer I seen shot with a .223 . You might as well use a shovel and knock the deer on the head with it,you would probaly get the same effect like from a .223 would do to the animal

 

[40caljustice]

.223 on a deer? nah too much suffering for the animal to have to deal with for the last painful moments or even hours to leave their life with. Now thats the majority of deer I seen shot with a .223 . You might as well use a shovel and knock the deer on the head with it,you would probaly get the same effect like from a .223 would do to the animal

Tell that to the bow hunters that shoot too far back and have to track the deer a mile. Or the guy so worried about rifle recoil that he shoots low or back and causes the deer to slowly bleed out while suffering.

Proper shot placement. I've shot 1 deer with a .223. The deer dropped without ever knowing what happened. Almost every deer I've killed with a bow made it less than 40 yards and dropped. Shot placement and Rage broad heads.

I did spine shoot one deer and had to kill it on the ground. Pre Rage era.

Carry what's comfortable and what you shoot well but implying that heavy hitting magnum rifles are needed for deer is ludicrous. IMO. I feel magnums are only needed for long range shots. Even then a good ol' .270 or 30/06 with proper handloads can be adequate.