So after getting my browing xbolt stainless stalker in a 7mm rem mag...i used it for a bit and then secided to put it away until I was able to match it with high end scope....so after almostba year infinally got the virtex razor hd ...with the matching razor hd rings...so i took it out and was very dissapointed...at 100yds i was getting 1.5 moa...and at 300 yds.. using federal soft point ammo....shooting prone of a vangard bipod. I hit paper.. but the out outside edges of target...not abywhere near bulls eye.gard vipod. As always comments and good advice is always welcome
This is ridiculous.....
- Thread starter Jpw360
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Welcome to TFL and thank you for posting. All our rifle experts are currently engaged. Please stay on the site and one of them will be with you shortly. Your post is important to us! 
With that out of the way and until one of the real experts shows up let me say that 1.5 moa isn't really awful.
You said you're getting 1.5 moa now after mounting the scope, what was it doing before you mounted it?
At 300 yards, not near the bullseye but how was the group size and were you able to adjust the scope to get it on target?
If you were on target (hitting dead center) at 100 yards and way off at 300 yards I might suspect the scope is having a problem.
Again 1.5 moa isn't all that shabby...and maybe there's other loads your rifle might like better.
With that out of the way and until one of the real experts shows up let me say that 1.5 moa isn't really awful.
You said you're getting 1.5 moa now after mounting the scope, what was it doing before you mounted it?
At 300 yards, not near the bullseye but how was the group size and were you able to adjust the scope to get it on target?
If you were on target (hitting dead center) at 100 yards and way off at 300 yards I might suspect the scope is having a problem.
Again 1.5 moa isn't all that shabby...and maybe there's other loads your rifle might like better.
Goatwhiskers
New member
Try it without the bipod, you might be pleasantly surprised. GW
Pathfinder45
New member
Bipods, Captain?
It seems to me that a lot of shooters put too much reliance upon bipods. 300 yards Is a long way out there for mere factory ammo. Give the bipod to someone that can't shoot without one. Get a 1907 military sling and learn how to use it. Go to the bench to get your ammo and equipment dialed in. Then shun the bench and practice from standing, kneeling, and sitting positions. When you get good at those, then any shot from an improvised rest in the field, like over your backpack, will seem easy. That's just my take on it. Bipod lovers will disagree.....
It seems to me that a lot of shooters put too much reliance upon bipods. 300 yards Is a long way out there for mere factory ammo. Give the bipod to someone that can't shoot without one. Get a 1907 military sling and learn how to use it. Go to the bench to get your ammo and equipment dialed in. Then shun the bench and practice from standing, kneeling, and sitting positions. When you get good at those, then any shot from an improvised rest in the field, like over your backpack, will seem easy. That's just my take on it. Bipod lovers will disagree.....
I just got to ask, "What did you do to the scope between the first group, and the second group?" I assume you checked all the screws holding the scope on, and the screws holding the action in the stock.
Your scope, may have suffered, an internal failure. I would suggest you go back to 100 yards and see if you can duplicate the first group. If you can duplicate the first group, try " boxing" the scope to see if it's tracking at all.
Of course, you may have just stumbled into one of the life's greatest mysteries.
Your scope, may have suffered, an internal failure. I would suggest you go back to 100 yards and see if you can duplicate the first group. If you can duplicate the first group, try " boxing" the scope to see if it's tracking at all.
Of course, you may have just stumbled into one of the life's greatest mysteries.
I will definitely remove the bipod and try some sand bags... i will also try to get it dead on at 200 yds...so far i have tryed winchester ammo....garbage imo...i tryed hornady sst...that seems better..and last one i tryed was federal softpoint which is in between the other two.
Pathfinder45
New member
It is amazing how ammo that shoots promising groups at 100 yards can go all to heck at 300 yards. Although it's more likely shooter error, not always.... Sometimes bullets can become unstable between those ranges. Sandbag your rifle and remove any possibility of shooter instability. Save your brass and take up reloading. The 7mm Magnum is a lot of rifle to learn to shoot well. I'm thinking in terms of recoil. It's not terrible, but more people flinch than will admit it. As far as your scope goes, the only comment I can make, is that it's not a Leupold.
Pathfinder45
New member
I've had mostly good results with Winchester ammo. But there's nothing that can beat a custom tailored handload in the rifle it was developed for. I just don't have high expectations of factory ammo. I will occasionally buy it when cheap for the brass, then plink away at jugs offhand and reload the brass with select components for better results.
Few posts, we cannot assume you know how to shoot or how to sight a gun in. Have you shot from the bench before? What kind of five shot groups can you shoot from the bench with other guns?
Shoot a five shot group from the bench at 100 yards using sand bags with proper bench rest technique.
Shoot a five shot group from the bench at 100 yards using sand bags with proper bench rest technique.
I mean absolutely no disrespect by what I'm about to say.Its my honest best guess.
The rifle /shooter/scope/ammo has demonstrated it will shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds.
If something occurred like loosening scope mount screws,a change in the rifle or scope,then your problem is explained.
If no such change occurred,lets think about what is possible,or not possible.
If the bullets flying to the 300 yd target would have made a 1.5 MOA target at 100 yds,those bullets left the rifle and scope a long time ago.A group will open up some over distance.If you shot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds,it might be expected you would shoot (guessing)10% or so larger at 300yds.1.5 MOA at 300 yds would be a little over a 4 .5 in group.Allowing for the group to grow a little with range,it does not make sense your group would go over 6 in at 300.(Unless wind or extreme mirage came into play)
From my own experience with a 7mm Rem mag,in hunting weight rifles it can deliver enough recoil to begin penetrating..punishing,the shooter.
We being humans,the mind and body will begin to anticipate the next recoil.
IMO,the source of your groups opening might be you had better concentration on the first group.It may very well be that you shot the 300 yd group with your eyes closed...a fraction of a second before the trigger broke.
For myself,the most powerful technique I know to keep myself focused is to totally concentrate on seeing the crosshairs on the target at the moment of recoil.Calling the shot.I want a mental picture of exactly where the crosshairs were at the shot.If I have a target on the bench next to me,I want to be able to put my finger on the target and show you where the crosshairs were when the the scope jumped with recoil.
If I can do that,my eyes were open.If I can't,my eyes were closed.
The classic ,revealing test is to let your buddy load your rifle for you and surprise you with a dummy round or an empty chamber.Close your eyes,let him close the bolt for you.
When you squeeze off on an empty chamber,expecting recoil,if you still see the crosshairs resting center bull,good for you!!
But if you cringe a bit,you know why your groups open.
The good news would be you then can make your rifle shoot better by acknowledging the flinch and overcoming it.
You may even find your 100 yd groups improve.
IMO,if the scope screws stayed tight and the guard screws are snug,If this were happening to me,I'd look real hard at myself,rather than the rifle,as the place to make improvement.
The rifle /shooter/scope/ammo has demonstrated it will shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds.
If something occurred like loosening scope mount screws,a change in the rifle or scope,then your problem is explained.
If no such change occurred,lets think about what is possible,or not possible.
If the bullets flying to the 300 yd target would have made a 1.5 MOA target at 100 yds,those bullets left the rifle and scope a long time ago.A group will open up some over distance.If you shot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds,it might be expected you would shoot (guessing)10% or so larger at 300yds.1.5 MOA at 300 yds would be a little over a 4 .5 in group.Allowing for the group to grow a little with range,it does not make sense your group would go over 6 in at 300.(Unless wind or extreme mirage came into play)
From my own experience with a 7mm Rem mag,in hunting weight rifles it can deliver enough recoil to begin penetrating..punishing,the shooter.
We being humans,the mind and body will begin to anticipate the next recoil.
IMO,the source of your groups opening might be you had better concentration on the first group.It may very well be that you shot the 300 yd group with your eyes closed...a fraction of a second before the trigger broke.
For myself,the most powerful technique I know to keep myself focused is to totally concentrate on seeing the crosshairs on the target at the moment of recoil.Calling the shot.I want a mental picture of exactly where the crosshairs were at the shot.If I have a target on the bench next to me,I want to be able to put my finger on the target and show you where the crosshairs were when the the scope jumped with recoil.
If I can do that,my eyes were open.If I can't,my eyes were closed.
The classic ,revealing test is to let your buddy load your rifle for you and surprise you with a dummy round or an empty chamber.Close your eyes,let him close the bolt for you.
When you squeeze off on an empty chamber,expecting recoil,if you still see the crosshairs resting center bull,good for you!!
But if you cringe a bit,you know why your groups open.
The good news would be you then can make your rifle shoot better by acknowledging the flinch and overcoming it.
You may even find your 100 yd groups improve.
IMO,if the scope screws stayed tight and the guard screws are snug,If this were happening to me,I'd look real hard at myself,rather than the rifle,as the place to make improvement.
Don't sight in on a bipod. They're not stable enough. Use a solid rest on a solid bench.
"...Federal soft point ammo..." What bullet weight? Federal 7mm Mags start at 140 grains. Matters for sighting in.
1.5 MOA is a rough group size that means 1.5" at 100 yards. Actually a decent group at 100 for a hunting rifle. Where did it land at 100?
"...get it dead on at 200 yds..." Only if you think you'll never take a longer shot. 300 is reasonable for a 7mm Mag, but you have to know where your rifle shoots at that distance.
If you're not reloading, you need to try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo your rifle shoots best, then sight in at 100 usually high to be on target out to 300. For example, Federal 175 SP's, sighted in 1.7" high at 100, will be dead on at 200, and 7.6" low at 300. According to the ballistics on Federal's site. Drops like a brick past 300.
A Trophy bonded bear claw 175, sighted in 2" high at 100 will be dead on at 200 and 8.9" low at 300. Difference is the MV.
"...Federal soft point ammo..." What bullet weight? Federal 7mm Mags start at 140 grains. Matters for sighting in.
1.5 MOA is a rough group size that means 1.5" at 100 yards. Actually a decent group at 100 for a hunting rifle. Where did it land at 100?
"...get it dead on at 200 yds..." Only if you think you'll never take a longer shot. 300 is reasonable for a 7mm Mag, but you have to know where your rifle shoots at that distance.
If you're not reloading, you need to try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo your rifle shoots best, then sight in at 100 usually high to be on target out to 300. For example, Federal 175 SP's, sighted in 1.7" high at 100, will be dead on at 200, and 7.6" low at 300. According to the ballistics on Federal's site. Drops like a brick past 300.
A Trophy bonded bear claw 175, sighted in 2" high at 100 will be dead on at 200 and 8.9" low at 300. Difference is the MV.
603Country
New member
You have a good rifle and a good scope. I would ditch the bipod and shoot off sandbags and see if the groups improve. Personally, I wouldn't be thrilled with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards, but that's plenty good for deer hunting. And quite honestly, you shouldn't expect much under an inch with your rifle and scope when shooting factory loads, so in that context your 1.5 inch groups aren't so terribly bad. What is bad is that you may have gotten bit by the accuracy bug. If you want the good groups (3/4 inch would be good), reloading needs to be in your future.
If your groups off the sandbags continue to be 1.5 inches or so, I think I'd ask someone that I know to be a good shooter to see how he does. If his groups are half the size of yours, then we've isolated the problem. If they are the same as yours, either shop around for an ammo that shoots better or come back to us to talk reloading. You can get into it without spending too much money.
If your groups off the sandbags continue to be 1.5 inches or so, I think I'd ask someone that I know to be a good shooter to see how he does. If his groups are half the size of yours, then we've isolated the problem. If they are the same as yours, either shop around for an ammo that shoots better or come back to us to talk reloading. You can get into it without spending too much money.
not my first rodeo
As indicated...this is my first rifle..
But its not my only one...and while it was stored away...i got some more rifles: sako a7 7mm-08, tikka t3 varmint hb 300 win mag, xbolt hunter 270, remington 223 vls. And out off all of those my target rifle is the tikka t3 hb 300 win mag and i shoot with it very often with decent groups...and in terms of recoil....i do practise thst too...keep eyes on the target at all time when possible prior snd after pulling the trigger. With the 7mm-08 i learn that rifles are picky and will only like one kind of ammo...i was lucky and found that hornady sst 130g for that guy did a phenomenal job. 3 holes tauching each other at 200 yds...but i also shot this 7mm rem mag when i first got it and it was good with thesame federal aoft point 140g at a range limited to 100 yds shopting of a cadwell rail. With a vortex viper (low end scope). I will definitely pay more attention at barrel twmperature AMMO TEMPERATURE AND SAND BAG DEPLOYMENT once i take it out again
As indicated...this is my first rifle..
But its not my only one...and while it was stored away...i got some more rifles: sako a7 7mm-08, tikka t3 varmint hb 300 win mag, xbolt hunter 270, remington 223 vls. And out off all of those my target rifle is the tikka t3 hb 300 win mag and i shoot with it very often with decent groups...and in terms of recoil....i do practise thst too...keep eyes on the target at all time when possible prior snd after pulling the trigger. With the 7mm-08 i learn that rifles are picky and will only like one kind of ammo...i was lucky and found that hornady sst 130g for that guy did a phenomenal job. 3 holes tauching each other at 200 yds...but i also shot this 7mm rem mag when i first got it and it was good with thesame federal aoft point 140g at a range limited to 100 yds shopting of a cadwell rail. With a vortex viper (low end scope). I will definitely pay more attention at barrel twmperature AMMO TEMPERATURE AND SAND BAG DEPLOYMENT once i take it out again
William T. Watts
New member
Nothing wrong with American quality!!
I agree with Pathfinder45 comments about Leupold scopes, I tend to purchase upper end Leupold scopes and have done so for almost 30 years. I do believe you get what you pay for and particularly like American products and leave the imported glass for other people to buy. If I do have a problem I can ship a Leupold back (1) and have it back on the rifle within a few weeks.. I also have (1) Nikon and (1) Burris scope that have never been a problem either.. I have (1) foremost (Pennys) Department stores that sold rifles and shotguns and sporting goods 40-50 years ago that is a 4X mounted on a Winchester 9422 take down rifle that still does a good job for plinking or for squirrels.. William
P.S. In 45 years I've had one scope sent back to the factory for a repair, I think that's remarkable and says a lot about buying quality products..
I agree with Pathfinder45 comments about Leupold scopes, I tend to purchase upper end Leupold scopes and have done so for almost 30 years. I do believe you get what you pay for and particularly like American products and leave the imported glass for other people to buy. If I do have a problem I can ship a Leupold back (1) and have it back on the rifle within a few weeks.. I also have (1) Nikon and (1) Burris scope that have never been a problem either.. I have (1) foremost (Pennys) Department stores that sold rifles and shotguns and sporting goods 40-50 years ago that is a 4X mounted on a Winchester 9422 take down rifle that still does a good job for plinking or for squirrels.. William
P.S. In 45 years I've had one scope sent back to the factory for a repair, I think that's remarkable and says a lot about buying quality products..
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I have not had any experience with leupold... so i cannot speak about them.i have one nightforce F1, one Schmidt & Bender, one vortex razor hd, one usoptics st-10, one vortex viper. All tested to specs. All functioning 100%. I cannot also speak about warrenty because since they all fuction properly i have not had the need to send anyone of them for warranty. I will however follow a process of elimination....eliminating all possible issues one at a time.
Wow! Lots of bipod hate going on. 
I shoot off a couple all the time (mine are Harris), and with very good results. Ive always zeroed the rifles they are on with them as well. I dont shoot off a bench though, and for precision, from prone.
I shoot off a couple all the time (mine are Harris), and with very good results. Ive always zeroed the rifles they are on with them as well. I dont shoot off a bench though, and for precision, from prone.
I tend to agree. As much as we hate to admit it, its usually not the guns fault if you cant shoot it.