THIS is how stupid people can be in a home invasion...

The laws are good for that here, too...you're within your rights to blast an intruder who is either in your home or in your "curtilage". If that guy had done that to someone's home who was armed, the police would have likely just taken a statement and called it good if he ended up dead on the doorstep.

So the homeowner apparently just didn't have a gun, and became a victim. Opening the door was sheer stupidity.
 
Oh, *I* got you...

So, now we're talking about shooting an innocent guy through a closed door every time my doorbell rings.

*chirp*

:confused:

EDIT:
And if saying I'd shoot an intruder who kicks down my door at 2:00 in the morning amounts to guilt, premeditation, and so on, I'll have half the people in this forum for cell mates, so I'm not too worried.
 
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What in the world are you talking about? The original article was about someone kicking in the door.

Somehow, I don't think that's the same as knocking or ringing the doorbell?
 
right. guess i didn't catch that part overly much. edit what i said. if it was a door being kicked in situation... 911 first, no doubt about it. after that is all speculation. at some point they would meet the business end of my mossberg. how and in what method i don't know. i <imagine> taking up a good firing position (in my house it would be crouched next to a door frame) and waiting for the perp to make entry. i don't know if i would tip them off to my prescense or not. the sign on my front door says i'm armed. hopefully they are literate.

god i can't spell tonight.

knowing me, i'd be pretty damn grogy. i usually go to bed around 10pm, so a 2am wake up call would have ripped me out of my usual deep sleep. waiting for them to make entry would, in theory, give your now pumping heart rate to wake the rest of your body up.
 
Oh, *I* got you...
So, now we're talking about shooting an innocent guy through a closed door every time my doorbell rings.
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Nope you still don't "got me" and my advice was apparently not wanted.

So never mind.
 
Slowly open the door ??????

What was he thinking ? Sorry, victim was not thinking. Too sleepy, unexpected event, not a tactical thinker no shame in that. The criminal element will near always have advantage of supprise. Beating down my door. No one I know would do that, drunk is not an excuse. If a "friend" were to beat down my door anytime of day they would no longer be welcome at my home. Response to an event like this arm yourself call 911 report event, fire only after door is breached. If one is not a gun owner get midevil toss a chair in front of door to impeed progress in event of a breach any object to swing or poke with in hand, prepare to repel boarders. gearing up for a confrontation takes time, longer for some than others. getting in the mind set is slowed down by the denial of the event to cause grievius injury to another is repulsive to honest hard working citizens. That is why those of us on forums like this are discussing topics like this. Think it through befor it happens then it is not quite so alien when or if the time comes.
 
"so your first reaction to someone banging on your door at 2am is to call 911"

No, you misunderstood. I don't care whether the dispatcher answers or not.

But a tape recorder starts and my home address will be entered. This is useful information to prove my side of the story.

If shots are fired and people are hurt, you can bet you will be arrested or detained. You will need a lawyer.
 
I assist with the CCW training at our club and we have the participants practice "Stop, do not come in here, I have a gun, The police are on their way, If you come in I will shoot you"

This serves the purpose of:
1. Warning the threat of your intent to protect yourself
2. Is recorded by the 911 operator that you warned the threat before shooting
3. If the person is not a threat, but a intoxicated friend relative, etc.... to identify themselves and stop.

We heard stories of a drunk son coming home and letting himself in at night after breaking up with his wife and the father announcing his warning to which the son replied "Dad, dont shoot Susan left me".

I think all three of those reasons are valid support of practicing the warning to help you get in the habit of stating it. Remember you will be just coming out of a sleep, your mind will be a little fuzzy and you will do what you practice.
 
Nope you still don't "got me" and my advice was apparently not wanted.

So never mind.
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Oh, turn your Offendometer down a notch, would you? OP described what sounded like someone kicking in his door in the middle of the night.

In addition to grabbing a gun, Tourist said he'd call 911 to have the incident taped. I said that sounded like a good idea.

Somebody piped in by saying that sounded like premeditated murder.

First, there's no basis whatsoever for arguing that calling 911 and grabbing a gun in the case of a night home-invasion robbery amounts to premeditated murder. That's just beyond stupid, and I think everyone else here will agree.

Second, if discussing using lethal force to stop a home-invasion robbery at 2:00 in the morning might be interpreted as premeditated murder, then your response is true of every other post by every other person ever posted in this forum.

Are you advising TFL shut down the tactics forum? Or are you just suggesting that the answer to every scenario posted is, "I might do something, but only vaguely, and only if some vague other things happen, but I might not..."? After that, the moderator could say, "This thread is closed for being too specific." :barf:
 
workinwifdakids,

I'm just frustrated because I was trying to pass along some very prudent advice that was given to me and I'm botching the job. I'd rather not continue to hijack the thread so I'm bowing out.
 
"I assist with the CCW training at our club and we have the participants practice 'Stop, do not come in here, I have a gun, The police are on their way, If you come in I will shoot you'"

This runs contrary to what our CCW instructor taught us. He told us not to tell a potential intruder you intend to shoot them, because if you have to shoot it may look as if you intend to shoot them. Something to do with intent. Or premeditation or something.

He advocated arming yourself, taking cover, calling 911, and telling the potential intruder that the police are on their way. Then if the intruders come in and get shot, the police have a record of you calling for help, the police(and the jury, later) have a record that you were seeking help and that you weren't just hoping to get to shoot somebody.
 
First, there's no basis whatsoever for arguing that calling 911 and grabbing a gun in the case of a night home-invasion robbery amounts to premeditated murder.
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First nobody argued that. The argument was that presenting your gleeful and scripted account of how you would cover yourself when you implement what for all the world seems like a preset plan to kill would put you in legal peril.
He may correct in that assumption and history bears him out
Second, if discussing using lethal force to stop a home-invasion robbery at 2:00 in the morning might be interpreted as premeditated murder, then your response is true of every other post by every other person ever posted in this forum.
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Presenting a defense plan is not the same as discussing a predetermined result.

if a prosecutor will use your choice of ammo as a way of convincing the jury that you are guilty of premeditation think what they can do with your comment, especially the KA_FRICKEN BABOOM part.
 
I don't think I've EVER had a 2:am knock/kick on my door. Even my sons friends knocked and stepped back so they could be I.D.ed before things got ugly. :D

Mark.
 
The idea is to NOT have use your firearm by discouraging the intruder from entering your bedroom. I guess it is just a difference of styles. I can't imagine that it would be interpreted as "wanting to shoot someone" when the intruder is in your home in the middle of the night.
 
"I was trying to pass along some very prudent advice"

ZeSpectre, I think in debates like this we are all speaking as "one of equals." No one is taking the side of aggressors and everyone here has a home and loved ones to protect.

It sounds to me like we are all proffering the best way to get that done.

I come here for advice. I go to knife sharpening forums for advice about my job. To that end, I'll pass along info if I've tried it and found it to be worthwhile.

And so it is here about this topic. I cannot think of a more heinous crime that that of home invasion. Imagine. Crime. In the very personal area of your home amid loved ones.

I read each one of these posts. I wanted to. I felt it was necessary. And if you have anything further to say, trust me, I'll read it.
 
Okay, I'll try this from a different angle and see if I can make my point.

Scenario...
1) Bad guy busts into workinwifdakids' house.
2) workinwifdakids has no choice but to shoot him in defense of his house and family (no problem with that on my part BTW).
3) Bad guy survives and the whole thing later winds up in court.
4) Bad guy claims he tried to surrender and give up to wait for the police and that workinwifdakids shot him anyway.
5) Now we have a potential "heresay" situation with a jury trying to decide what happened. Yes workinwifdakids was justified in defending his home but is the jury going to think he shot in cold blood after the badguy allegedly "gave up"?
6) The opposing counsel pulls up the following exceript and hands it to the court...

I've always said the same thing. The drill is, I hand my wife the phone and tell her, "DIAL 911 and do NOT hang up!"

I grab the Remington 870 full of 3" 00-buckshot.
I start screaming, "STOP! PLEASE STOP!" all of which is being recorded.
Then I start in with, "PLEASE, STOP! I HAVE A GUN!"
Then I move into, "I DON'T WANT TO HURT YOU, BUT I WILL IF YOU MAKE ME! PLEASE, PLEASE..."

At about that point, the dispatchor will hear "KA-FRICKIN-BOOOOOM," and there will be a nice recording for posterity.
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I've worked local law enforcement, then for USDOJ, been witness in a few cases of various sorts and worked with a LOT of lawers both defending and prosecuting. Please just believe me that any good lawyers could make this look REALLY BAD to a jury of your peers.

My one and only point. Don't make extra work for your defense lawyer.
If you are going to post self defense plans you should ALWAYS play it "close to the vest", be careful about what you post and for the love of GOD and your family make sure you NEVER sound like there would only be one outcome (shooting) to your plan.

There's a huge difference between writing the above, and writing something to the effect of "at about that point I've been backed into a corner with no other options left and I'm afraid the dispatcher would then be recording me defending myself".

Yeah I know it sounds like lawyer weaseling but if (God forbid) one of us ever wound up in such a situation we are going to need every bit of good background character witness we can muster to avoid further trouble because people like me would say "well, if you do a home invasion then you get what you deserve", but there are also an awful lot of Hollywood programmed people out there who would say "but he surrendered, you should have just waited for the police". Mind boggling I know, but true.
 
just playing devil's advocate:

how does the defending lawyer know that you've posted on TFL? don't you have to show just cause in getting a subpena (sp?) for the computer? then pay to have an expert comb through it? are most criminals most likely that smart and have the $$ to pay for it?

or should i have a fairly large magnet that i can throw on top of my computer should i have to defend myself.....
 
"Yeah I know it sounds like lawyer weaseling"

No, you're right, I would do the same. I think in this day every shooting will sooner or later wind up in civil court--even if you the victim seek to recover damages from the aggressor or his attorney.

If this hasn't already been mentioned, here's another point. Your memory.

Having your home smashed, your wife terrorized and firing (knowing that you just might have ended a life) is probably the worst thing many of us will go through. This is the reason I mentioned an appointment with a cognitive therapist.

"Did I fire four shots of five?"

This is why I think an unrefutable taped record of the incident will be of great value.

I even think it would help you heal from the attack, reenforcing the fact that you fired in justified defense of your family.

You have outlined solid, salient points, ZeSpectre.
 
or should i have a fairly large magnet that i can throw on top of my computer should i have to defend myself.....
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I do

I can speak from personal experience that comments made in an open forum can bite you in the butt, I just can't expand on that right now
This is why I think an unrefutable taped record of the incident will be of great value.
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There was a thread here awhile back where a guy thought that videoing an abusive neighbor would help his defense ifhe should ever have to take drastic action

To him the tape show the neighbor attempting to assault him and he defending himself

What almost every one else saw was a man setting his neighbor up for an ambush and gleefully putting three bullets into him and asking him if he wanted more as the man laid crying and dying on the porch

Had that video not been there he may have been able to convince the jury that there was a pattern of abusive behavior towards him and that he was merely defending himself
 
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