Thinking Of Getting A 1911

I'm more impressed by the accuracy of the gun, personally. I could care less how individual small parts are manufactured as long as the gun functions reliably and I'm able to consistently hit what I'm aiming at.
 
Quality made machines usually last longer as well as their tolerances.

It's harder to discuss it now a days with more recent shooters since every manufacture has gone to cheaper parts and manufacturing methods due to metal costs. Their profit margins need to stay the same or increase unless they want to charge more for the product.

I'm a machinist and have been working with all types of metals for years. The last company I worked for went with cheaper metal in their products and machine parts that saw a lot of use. The cheaper machine parts wore out 4 times faster and the material was harder to work with. This resulted in more scrap than product. Yes cast is great and if done well will hold up for a long time. Car parts are cast, but a void the size of a period in a control arm is not going to effect the structural integrity as much as the same size void in a hammer,sear or firing pin. For most shooters it doesn't matter, especially for someone who only puts a few rounds down range a month.

I'm sure someone will chime in and tell me their mim and cast gun has seen a million rounds in the first year they owned it or that their full tool steel and forged gun exploded after only a magazine, but that's okay. ;) I'm not pointing anything or anyone out. I'm just making observations from a machinists' stand point. I have plenty of firearms with cast and mim that work fine, but I've had some that are just pure garbage that wear or break quickly.

Looser tolerances from the start also help avoid such wear and breakage. The design is a big factor weather MIM or cast can be used. Some extractors that are cast or MIM in some guns are know to chip, yet another design is fine with it as a single example. This is why I want to point out I'm not saying this to anyone in particular. There are just too many factors to consider when talking about materials, manufacturing methods and design.

I typed long enough and probably will get some flak, but whatever. :)
 
That's good stuff.
I think there's always a stigma associated with any change that's done to make the product cheaper; look at the disdain with which the post-'64 Winchesters are held today?
If the savings are passed to the customer, and a revised part works as well as what it replaced, no problem. If the cheaper part is integrated to reduce costs, and the savings are to maintain the profit margin on the product, it probably comes under the heading of "what can you do?"
 
You can't do much other than accept it and hope someone comes out with a part that is better designed and/or made from better material. I didn't point out a single gun company because it's happened to many of them. The entire gun may be fine except for one flawed piece that is known to break or wear prematurely. Sometimes an aftermarket solution is needed and sometimes it takes the manufacture awhile to finally say "we need to fix this" and come up with a solution of their own.

Now it doesn't matter with many of the guns out there. Polymer firearms especially have pretty loose tolerances. Even polymer is a way to make firearms cheaper and obtain a higher profit margin. There are advantages to polymer that I appreciate, but most manufactures have jumped on it since they can be made cheaper, quicker with less machining and fitting parts. I like both metal and polymer framed firearms, but the prices for some of the poly firearms that mainly consist of stamped internals is just a tad high. Like you said though, what are you going to do? It's the norm now so pointing out how nice it is to have a gun with none of those corner cutting techniques or cheaper manufacturing processes make people give you the ol' stink eye like it doesn't really matter. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't since like I said it depends on many factors.

ETA: Just look at the manufactures and what parts are now MIM, cast or plastic that used to be made of tool steel or bar stock. The prices didn't go down, but the parts got easier and cheaper for the manufacture to produce. Some may say it's just a few small parts. Well, a few small parts across how many guns is a huge savings when material, labor, milling, tooling and the like are cut from the process. Most manufactures and many end users will tell you how it's better, but it's just about saving money so they don't have to charge more for the product. I've seen it up close and personal and heard it directly from the mouths of managers and business owners.
 
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I am going to say Rock Island Armory. I bought a fullsize GI two weeks ago and it works great. It has a nice trigger break and weight and shoots to point of aim. Accurate also. Mind you I have owned and do own much more expensive 1911s.

I changed out a few parts (MSH, grip safety, thumb safety and grips) to make it alittle more WW2 looking, but the gun ran the same with the original parts.

It is a good 1911 and I'm glad I bought it. Customer service is supposed to be very good from what I hear.





 
1911 Budget gun

Do you already have a Star BM9....? Budget, 1911 style, no grip safety, fun plinker. Unless of course you're looking to plink with a .45
StarBMGrip2.jpg
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The bottom line is that the vast majority of owners will never put enough rounds down range to "wear out" parts in their 1911, MIM or not. There's a group of folks who will agonize over that change in component metal for part X, but most people could care less. I'm all about function. If someone wants to pay for "forged everything" out of the most expensive steels, that's cool. I just wouldn't be one of those folks. I look at a gun as a tool. If it meets my requirements and lasts for my projected duty cycle, I don't have any real interest in paying extra for someone to over-engineer that tool.

Best,
 
The bottom line is that the vast majority of owners will never put enough rounds down range to "wear out" parts in their 1911, MIM or not. There's a group of folks who will agonize over that change in component metal for part X, but most people could care less. I'm all about function. If someone wants to pay for "forged everything" out of the most expensive steels, that's cool. I just wouldn't be one of those folks. I look at a gun as a tool. If it meets my requirements and lasts for my projected duty cycle, I don't have any real interest in paying extra for someone to over-engineer that tool.

Best,
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The problem with that logic is that MIM and cast if they fail will fail early in their life without signs of fatigue.
 
Well I guess the old school 1911s were over-engineered since they didn't have mim, cast or plastic parts (minus the grips). Today "well made" and "high quality" means "over engineered" I guess. Even cheap tools like wrenches, hammers, power tools and the like last longer when they're made with quality and good materials. It's the metal costs and every manufacture trying to save a buck that makes cheaper manufacturing processes the norm. I used to think "it's good enough" until I started buying older and higher end guns. I then realized what was really happening and why firearms were being made with the materials they're made with today, especially working in a manufacturing environment. Any gun can be a tool, but it doesn't need to be made with the lowest cost materials.

Again it's hard to talk about it today. Cheaply manufactured guns are here to stay so it's the norm and not something shooters of today want to hear or care about until something breaks.
 
MIM are not used because of the "metal costs" but because of the labor costs. To get a 1911 that is fit as well as a Kimber but that has no MIM parts takes a lot of man-hours which means it is either made overseas or costs substantially more. To me, I cannot justify it. The MIM parts hold up too well. Some friends and I are shooting the heck out of several Kimbers and cannot get anything to break or wear out.

If I were rich I'd buy nothing but Wison, Nighthawk and Ed Brown. But since I'm not I buy (almost) nothing but Kimber. Once I have put 1K rounds through a well-lubricated Kimber It racks as sweet as any 1911 you ever held.
 
By Nakanokalronin's logic, we should all be using wood recurved bows instead of modern compound bows since they can't be as good as the original design and use fancy new materials. :)

I'm not going to lose any sleep over those "cheap" MIM parts. I can certainly appreciate the sentiment for those who like to pay the premiums for hand fit forged everything so that they can pass that gun along to their progeny and tell their friends they've got a Rolls Royce piece, but I'm not one of them. I don't fancy myself a "collector" of firearms any more than I fancy myself a collector of vice grips or screwdrivers. I buy sufficient quality to meet my expected needs. :)

Best,
 
The bottom line is that the vast majority of owners will never put enough rounds down range to "wear out" parts in their 1911, MIM or not. There's a group of folks who will agonize over that change in component metal for part X, but most people could care less. I'm all about function. If someone wants to pay for "forged everything" out of the most expensive steels, that's cool. I just wouldn't be one of those folks. I look at a gun as a tool. If it meets my requirements and lasts for my projected duty cycle, I don't have any real interest in paying extra for someone to over-engineer that tool.
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I agree with this 100%. Most guns sold in this country are never going to see enough rounds to shoot them to a parts failure and gun companies know that. They engineer to that and repair those that do break under warranty. It makes sense because that is what the market demands. I would estimate most handguns sold in this country will never see 1000 rounds in their lifetime let alone 5,000+. The Pinto Principle in full effect.

My guns personally do not fall into that category. Maybe your do. I buy tools that meet my requirements at a price point I think is fair. I like the idea that I will be able to shoot 25,000 + rounds out of a 1911 in my life time and it still have life in it long after I dont. ;)


By Nakanokalronin's logic, we should all be using wood recurved bows instead of modern compound bows since they can't be as good as the original design and use fancy new materials.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over those "cheap" MIM parts. I can certainly appreciate the sentiment for those who like to pay the premiums for hand fit forged everything so that they can pass that gun along to their progeny and tell their friends they've got a Rolls Royce piece, but I'm not one of them. I don't fancy myself a "collector" of firearms any more than I fancy myself a collector of vice grips or screwdrivers. I buy sufficient quality to meet my expected needs.

Best,
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I always love the people who feel the need to take jabs at other people's preferences. Wanting and owning a nice hand fitted 1911 has nothing to do with being a "collector" or bragging to your friends for many of us who own them. Just because something is a tool does not mean it cannot be and should not be quality.

It is great that you are able to buy guns that meet your needs at a price point you are willing to pay. In the end that is all that people Nakanokalronin are doing except that they are using a different expectation and need.
 
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Pretty simple to me really - you don't normally depend on your screwdriver to save your life. The accepted quality is obviously much lower.

A little funny that most people are absolute sticklers about having the highest quality ammo but defend lower quality firearms.
 
WVsig, I wasn't taking a jab at anyone. Just pointing out that my criteria for value is different and I explained why.

Best,
 
As usual I'm seeing comments from people not in the business of manufacturing things from metal.
MIM are not used because of the "metal costs" but because of the labor costs.
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Okay, you're the expert since you must be in the industry and know more than me. It's pretty much pointless to point this out from experience when internet opinions trump everything else. :rolleyes:
 
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A little funny that most people are absolute sticklers about having the highest quality ammo but defend lower quality firearms.
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Most people don't care as long as a gun functions after a few hundred rounds. A cheap cast part is just as good as something milled from tool steel or bar stock. Don't argue with internet logic.;)
 
By Nakanokalronin's logic, we should all be using wood recurved bows instead of modern compound bows since they can't be as good as the original design and use fancy new materials.
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Yep, that's exactly what I meant. :rolleyes:
 
This is a second for finding a Star Model B if you are only looking for 1911 style and not .45.

I am not concerned with warrantee service as I never have had a firearm that had such.
 
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