Things I Don't Understand about Iraq

[thallub]

The Iraqi army recently went after the Madhi army in Basra: They are not doing so well. Remember the security forces that the US and Brits trained: Many of them shed their uniforms and swapped sides in this fight.

We need to get our troops out of that craphole ASAP.



"Abu Iman barely flinched when the Iraqi Government ordered his unit of special police to move against al-Mahdi Army fighters in Basra.

His response, while swift, was not what British and US military trainers who have spent the past five years schooling the Iraqi security forces would have hoped for. He and 15 of his comrades took off their uniforms, kept their government-issued rifles and went over to the other side without a second thought.

Such turncoats are the thread that could unravel the British Army’s policy in southern Iraq. The military hoped that local forces would be able to combat extremists and allow the Army to withdraw gradually from the battle-scarred and untamed oil city that has fallen under the sway of Islamic fundamentalists, oil smugglers and petty tribal warlords. But if the British taught the police to shoot straight, they failed to instil a sense of unwavering loyalty to the State."

 

[wingman]

We need to consider what all this does for the American taxpayer selfish perhaps but necessary,we now have over 700 bases around the world, we outsource everything possible we import more poor under educated people then all other countries combined our wages overall are dropping the dollar is of less and less value at some point we must understand we are not the worlds keeper, while we can be kind and help when possible current polices of nation building will destroy our country.

 

[Conceal Carry]

What do you base your analysis on? Have you ever been to Iraq?

No Thumper, I have never been to Iraq, or Afghanistan for that matter, and Ithank God for that, for not being part of the "proud team" which brought turmoil to an otherwise peacufull country, not being part of the "proud team" to destabilize one country and threaten the security of the whole region, to get our country men killed in a foreign land for no reason, to drag down our economy to such low levels, to show to the whole world what an arrogant idiot we have been.....to revenge the deaths of 3000 or Americans in the 9/11 incident we got 4000 or so more Americans killed in Iraq and some more in Afghanistan.....and what's more now our government is seeing Iran as the axis of evil..........and then a few years later some other country........wake up man.....patriotism is good, very good but don't believe every word of the ninkumpops we have sent to the White Houe... or the power hungry intelligence heads.......don't forget that because of their egos and dirty politics they have endangered the lives of their own fellow men or women to be specific..........

Let the world worry about their problems, let them decide what kind of government or democracy they want for themselves... lets focus on out issues, lets focus on our people.... afterall it's our tax money they are throwing down the drain.....

 

[Conceal Carry]

And if all that war is for bringing democracy to that war riddled country..,.if it's all about democracy , if it's about empowering the people of those countries....why can't our government see the lack of same democracy and people rights in the Arab countries...why are they so chummy with these Arab govermnments.......why two standards.....It's all about personal gain...it's about oil......about power....about money........

And all the time who suffers...it's you and me brother......open your mind think for your self don't let others spoon feed you their perceptions...you are free to think and express this is what our democracy is and this what we are trying to shove down the worlds' throats.....why not practice it here first

 

[Musketeer]

Get something straight, Iraq and Afghanistan were two completely different issues.

While I believe the grounds for the invasion of Iraq were there, the non conformance with the cease fire accords, I can understand the viewpoints of those who disagree. I may think they are mistaken but I think there is room for discussion.

Afghanistan actively gave aid and succor to those who attacked us on 9/11. They acted as their direct supporter and sponsor. Their gov't provided them with everything they needed and supported the attacks against us. I would have supported eliminating all life in Afghanistan with nukes (not my first choice) before I would have agreed with not going in there. To make a claim that Afghanistan qualifies as a peaceful country in the following rant is completely wrong.

which brought turmoil to an otherwise peacufull country, not being part of the "proud team" to destabilize one country and threaten the security of the whole region, to get our country men killed in a foreign land for no reason, to drag down our economy to such low levels, to show to the whole world what an arrogant idiot we have been.....

No civilized nation on this planet had a problem with our pounding the snot out of Afghanistan and for good reason. Every other civilized nation fears exactly the same type of attack those fanatical terrorists carried out against us. In addition those other nations wanted someone to show a nation such as Afghanistan, so clearly caught with their hand in the cookie jar on 9/11, exactly what they could expect in retribution.

This thread is about Iraq. If you have a beef with our entirely justified invasion of Afghanistan start another thread. Be warned though that even those of us who have huge issues with the handling of Iraq are not likely to line up behind you regarding Afghanistan.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Our style of democracy is not because the West is somehow inherently the only kind of folks who could develop such. It just historically happened here. Certainly, European countries have a clear history of being NOT democratic recently.

Atrocities abound in Europe. Given people equal rights wasn't totally accepted in the USA till after WWII and the Civil Rights movement.

The USA could become totalitarian given the right circumstances. Striving for 'liberty' or being monsters are all possibilities for humans. Neither is fundamentally inherent or stronger, IMHO. They are situationally dependent.

 

[73 Jock]

Let's keep our terminology straight guys.
A straight Democracy is an inevitable failure. The US is a Representative Republic, which is a form of the more generic term democracy. Note the COTUS does not use the word 'democracy'.

Democracy is a generic, not specific, term for a form of government folks. Let's not lump them all together and think we are comparing like creatures.

Thank you Bruxley for pointing this out, it deserves attention.

For the record, my use of "democracy" regarding Iraq is as a generic reference to a local-to-central form of government, in which common people choose their leaders, and minority rights are not trampled. Ie., something between Turkey...and Enlightenment.

 

[73 Jock]

What is missing though is the enlightenment to accept the desires of other when they do not agree with your own. I do not see that acceptance present in the Islamic world. As soon as someone's ideas of freedom differ with theirs it is time to put someone to the sword.

Agreed, and further; Islamic radicalism is the defining evil of our era.

However there are secular moderates in the Arab world -- a majority are presently supressed in Iran -- who understand multilateralism.

The future of the Middle East -- and by extension; world peace -- depends upon the ascendancy of secular-ish moderates. It has fallen to us as the world's leader, to provide Iraq security so that this may take place.

As far as I know the formalization of a society accepting of diversity and protecting the rights of minority viewpoints is a western invention.

100% agreed. Every government on the earth which meets this definition, has it's roots in Western Enlightenment.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It has fallen to us as the world's leader, to provide Iraq security so that this may take place.


I would mildly disagree. Do we provide intervention for inchoate democratic feelings in many countries?

Syria, Iran - invade them - for example?

I would suggest that the minority based tyrannies exist because the supposed democratic yearning majorities (if they do exist) are not willing to take to the streets and fight for rights.

You may recall that the Iranians did take to the streets to get rid of the Shah. The Shah's military was not willing to fight the citizens. Why don't the Iranians, if they want democracy as compared to freedom to boogie and party, take to the streets again?

Why don't the Iraq moderators rise up in convincing fashion against the militias - not just fighting for their own sect?

Empirically, we don't see large majorities for democracy or if they exist, fight decisively in Iraq.

 

[thallub]

"I would suggest that the minority based tyrannies exist because the supposed democratic yearning majorities (if they do exist) are not willing to take to the streets and fight for rights."

The concept of democracy is foreign to middle east Arabs: Citizens of Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other middle east countries do not think that freedom is worth the price. Middle east dictators use Islamic religious leaders to hold their citizens in check.

 

[73 Jock]

Forces for democracy in these Arab dictatorships need outside support to succeed. An uprising requires weapons, organization, command and control; access to all things totally controlled by the state.

In 1991, during the waning days of the Persian Gulf War, the United States openly encouraged Iraqis to rise up against Saddam Hussien, implying that the military might of the U.S. would be employed on their behalf, and fully aware that only massive U.S. intervention would prevent slaughter of the rebels.

Then, Pres. GHW Bush and SecDef Dick Cheney stood our military down on the Iraq border, and allowed horrifying suppression of the rebels and mass reprisals against entire cities. Upwards of 100,000 were killed when the U.S refused to intervene.

This was a mere 17 years ago. Does anyone suppose that the entire freedom seeking Arab world failed to take notice of the cost of trusting the U.S.?

They do not rebel against Arab autocracies because they lack the means, and we lack the resolve to aid them.