The venerable .45-70 as an HD round

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Another "what gun for my wife thread"

Why don't you let her decide what gun she wants to defend her life with?

If she chooses the 45-70, great. If she wants the .30-30, let her use it.
 
Willie, I agree that she should choose. But she should make an informed choice; she may have thought about all the factors we have discussed, but she may have also just gone with what she shoots outdoors.

The OP should make sure she has the facts, and then let her decide.
 
I don't want to be the contrarian here, but 45-70 is a pretty heavy round even in lighter factory loads. I've never shot it indoors but I have on an outdoor range with 3 sides walled, and it is LOUD. A second shot in a high stress situation would be problematic, I would think.

As others have said if she feels comfortable with it then fine, but I don't know too many men who feel "comfortable" with 45-70 in a multiple round, high stress situation no less a woman at home with a child.

+1 on the posters above who have recommended an 1894 in .44mag. Get a used one (the new Marlins are iffy on quality control). For HD you don't need more than .44Mag and its much easier on recoil and sound blast, especially out of an 1894 lever.
 
.45/70 was home defense before they had a name for HD ;)

Wanna guess how many Amerind raiders got DRT from 'em back in the 1800's?? :D
 
I have that 155 gr collar button mould/boolits for it. I bet a case full of Trailboss under it would work real dandy for HD if needed.
 
This was stated about Leverevolution .45-70 rounds and was inaccurate...

I shoot the Hornady Leverevelution ammo in my 1895 cowboy. They are a 325 Grain bullet comming out at 2050 fps at the muzzle. The thing I like about them is they are expanding not solids or "hollow points" that dont expand very well.
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The Leverevolution round is most defintiely a hollowpoint round. It has a polymer tip like many hollowpoint rounds. This tip makes it safe to have spire shaped ammo in a tubular magazine such that multiple rounds do not go off during recoil, the primers being impacts by the points of bullets behind them.

The 325 gr. round is the FTX variety. Expansion looks more like older style hollowpoings where the bullets look like it has melted back over the shoulders.
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-70-Government-325-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

They also make a lighter 250 gr. version in Monoflex that looks more modern hollowpoints where the petal expand back over the shoulders.
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-70-Government-250-GR-MONOFLEX/

The monoflex stuff is a LOT more expensive, but the regular FTX is decently priced.

Note that the 2050 velocity noted isn't from a small little carbine that might be nice for home defense. It is from a gun with a 24" test barrel. Depending on the day, I have chrono'd the 325 gr. ammo out of my 18" 1895 at 1875-1950 fps.
 
I am going to clarify this. This isn't another "which gun for my wife thread"

She is comfortable with this gun, so I was looking for suggestions in HD cartridge possibilities.

If this was a "male" centered thread, would there be this much concern about recoil and follow up shots. The recoil out of a shotgun can be just as harsh, but still it's recommended.

She's not looking to get into a gun battle or "hold down the fort". She is wanting to make the bad guy DRT. She appreciates the recommendations for other guns, and we aren't ruling them out. We are dealing with what we have in our possession at this moment.
 
kristop64089, this isn't about talking down to the little woman. I'm a 6ft, 205lb, early 40's male; I wrestled in school, and am still into aikido and jujitsu. But I personally would not want to have to fire more than one shot, rapidly, from a .45-70 in a close environment.

For my ears' sake, I would not even want to fire off one shot, in a close environment.

So, yes, if the question were about a guy, I would express the same reservations.

A lot of people, who are good hunters and phenomenal shots in an outdoor environment, might find themselves at a loss in the confines of the nook between the bed and the wall. They might find that if they are surprised by the BG, it's hard to maintain control of the weapon, or get that longish barrel around to bear before the guy is inside its reach.

Your wife might be stronger and tougher than me, I know a lot of physically and mentally tough women. She may have more practice at weapon retention and hand-to-hand than I do. One friend of mine is a 5'1" or so, 110lb or so badass of a narcotics cop; she also teaches Arnis and is into kickboxing. Women like that are definitely out there.

But I would not choose a .45-70 as my first pick for a tight quarters encounter. Not talking about a woman, talking about me. I would not be comfortable with it indoors or at very close range.
 
But I personally would not want to have to fire more than one shot, rapidly, from a .45-70 in a close environment.

For my ears' sake, I would not even want to fire off one shot, in a close environment.
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My .45-70 is quieter than my AR15 with a flash hider.

If this was a "male" centered thread, would there be this much concern about recoil and follow up shots. The recoil out of a shotgun can be just as harsh, but still it's recommended.

She's not looking to get into a gun battle or "hold down the fort". She is wanting to make the bad guy DRT. She appreciates the recommendations for other guns, and we aren't ruling them out. We are dealing with what we have in our possession at this moment.
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I understand your property extends beyond shotgun ranges. I really don't perceive your wife engaged in home defense beyond 200 yards, but she could certainly do that with a shotgun and slugs as well as a .45-70 and slugs. And not to be male oriented, by our 12 ga. pump is my 5'1" wife's preferred home defense weapon. If your wife isn't confident about working one under duress as you noted, then she probably isn't practiced enough to be shooting at extended ranges either, under duress.

As for not looking to get into a gun battle or hold down the fort, do you really think the rest of us want to do that? However, that decision isn't going to be your wife's to make. She may be in a gun battle. If you are thinking she needs to be defending herself at greater than shotgun ranges, then it really sounds like you are talking about holding down the fort.

You own no weapons that will make the bad guy DRT with any assurance. You may own some powerful guns, but people survive .50 BMG wounds.

You wife doesn't like this and isn't going to practice enough to get better with that, but she is really concerned about personal security and wants to be able to defend herself and y'all's baby at CQB to long range gun battle distances and the best gun to do it with that you own. I really sounds like y'all have a bunch of disconnects between ideals, desires, and reality.

The .45-70 really isn't the best gun you have for the job.
 
Nobody is claiming .45-70 would not work for HD and it does have a history. Then again, longer histories were had for flintlocks. That does not make them a good choice now.
 
This was stated about Leverevolution .45-70 rounds and was inaccurate...
Click to expand...

Let me put it so you understand me better.

I shoot the Hornady Leverevelution ammo in my 1895 cowboy. They are a 325 Grain bullet comming out at 2050 fps at the muzzle. The thing I like about them is they are expanding not solids. Or "hollow points" that dont expand very well.

As in if you look at some of the hollow points for the 45-70 you can tell they wont mushroom very well. The Leverevolution bullets have been tested very extensivley for propper mushrooming. Id trust the leverevolution for HD then any other bullet choice. And around here they are the cheap stuff. I can get a box of Hornadys for $29.99, you cant touch any of the other brands for $35.
 
I would use the 45/70 and load it with factory cowboy loads. It will still be more than enough for any home invader (other than a bear)
 
nathaniel said
Let me put it so you understand me better.

I shoot the Hornady Leverevelution ammo in my 1895 cowboy. They are a 325 Grain bullet comming out at 2050 fps at the muzzle. The thing I like about them is they are expanding not solids. Or "hollow points" that dont expand very well.
Click to expand...

Wow. Saying the exact same convoluted statement a second time does not make it any less convoluted, but thanks for not trying. To save space, I won't rewrite the exact same reply as last time, okay?

Gunmkter said
45 70 will kill a 400+ pound animal in one shot. It's ridiculous anyone would concieve a follow up shot. 30-30 will pretty much do the same. 30-30 has really the best ammo options. I can't use either for hd though, even a 556 is to much gun for an attacker with no body armor. Best to stick with pistol round. Since you're in a rural area I guess 338c is the best choice unless you plan on fighting elephant warriors.
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See the problem with your statement is that you assume that the first shot on a given attacker will be completely unobstructed and will hit a vital area and produce an instantaneous stop, hence no need for a followup shot. This is very naive when it comes to self defense, assuming that everything will work perfectly. Obstructions get in the way. Vitals are often missed or not sufficiently damaged enought to produce an immediate stop. Some shots just plain miss their target. I know that is hard to imagine, but it happens, just like when hunters miss their targets with ammo that could easily drop the intended prey.

Then there is the issue of multiple attackers. You have assumed that the threat is singular or that the single first shot will manage to take out all of the attackers, which would likely mean that they have to be lined up. That is mighty wishful thinking.
 
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As for not looking to get into a gun battle or hold down the fort, do you really think the rest of us want to do that? However, that decision isn't going to be your wife's to make. She may be in a gun battle. If you are thinking she needs to be defending herself at greater than shotgun ranges, then it really sounds like you are talking about holding down the fort.
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yep.

You own no weapons that will make the bad guy DRT with any assurance. You may own some powerful guns, but people survive .50 BMG wounds.
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a .45-70 is just as ineffective when taken in the palm as a .223 round, and a .223 round taken to the chest would probably be just as effective in most situations as a .45-70 round in the same place.

You wife doesn't like this and isn't going to practice enough to get better with that, but she is really concerned about personal security and wants to be able to defend herself and y'all's baby at CQB to long range gun battle distances and the best gun to do it with that you own. It really sounds like y'all have a bunch of disconnects between ideals, desires, and reality.
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+1. seriously, this is probably the best synthesis of what i have heard so far from the OP. I am not trying to insult the OP, but i think he needs to sit down with his wife and really discuss the realities of home defense. it is never an ideal situation. she will likely not have a lot of time to react. how fast can she shoulder this rifle? how fast can she work the lever? how does the rapidity of shots effect her ability to keep the gun on target?

if the power of the round were the only consideration, we would all have .50 BMG rifles under our pillows. that is not the reality, however. the ability to use said weapon accurately in close quarters with little time to take aim, and think about whats behind the target, all while under duress, is more important.

The .45-70 really isn't the best gun you have for the job.
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i second that.

if your wife is uncomfortable with other weapons, she needs to spend more time shooting them, to increase her comfort level, because the .45-70 lever gun you guys have is not ideal.

if what you are trying to achieve is your wife being able to defend herself and the baby, in the house, during the day while you are gone, then what you need is a gun that (a) can be handled at close quarters quickly and accurately, (b) is sufficiently lethal, and (c) will not overpenetrate.

that list is in order of importance. while the .45-70 will be sufficiently lethal, you are not fighting buffalo. much smaller rounds, fired out of much smaller auto-loading guns, will also be sufficiently lethal, while also fulfilling the other two requirements.
 
I admit that some times when camping I sleep next to my BFR 45/70 loaded with leverevlution ammo. Not really home defense, more like camp defense.
 
Gunmktr, you are still assuming the first shot will be a hit. Under stress, against a moving target, in low light, this may not be a valid assumption.

And if somebody has the mindset to attack an obviously armed person (it would be hard to not notice a .45-70 lever rifle), odds are the blast and pressure wave won't stop them if the bullet doesn't connect.

If your assumptions were considered valid by more people, than single shot H&R shotguns would be the most common HD weapons out there. Most people want the option of follow-up shots, in case of failures to stop, or just plain misses.
 
Wow. Saying the exact same convoluted statement a second time does not make it any less convoluted, but thanks for not trying. To save space, I won't rewrite the exact same reply as last time, okay?
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I didnt say the same thing twice, if you passed a basic english class you will understand what I did. A "." ends a sentence so when I said:

"The thing I like about them is they are expanding not solids." That is one sentence addressing one type of bullet.

Then I said:
"Or "hollow points" that dont expand very well." Which is another sentence addressing another type of bullet. But this time Im talking about those big lobs of lead with a little hollow in the end of it that manufactures call "hollow points". These bullets have very little testing done to see if they actually mushroom. Now the Leverevolution ammo is not this type of bullets, the leverevolution has been extensively tested for mushrooming.

Have I made myself clear or are we still on the **** in everyones wheaties train?
 
I wouldn't hesitate...

...to use my 1895 Guide Gun for home defense...

Yes, I can think of better firearms at my disposal to use. That said, my 1895 is very quick handling, and is extremly intimidating when touched off....if it is what is at hand, then I would use it with no qualms.

Loading it down a bit, and using 300 gr bullets, we're still talking about enough energy at HD distances to take a perp down even if they are wearing body armor. Whether the bullet penetrates the armor is immaterial; the impact of the bullet on center mass will be enough to drive anyone down with severe internal injuries, broken ribs, etc., possibly stopping the heart just on impact energy alone.
 
Iron Deacon,
Thanks for addressing the bullet/charge loading(as well as the gun).

I'm not so convoluted as to think the .45/70 is the perfect HD round. Since she is comfortable with the weapon, it is why I asked.

I have plenty of handguns she can use, BUT if she has to grab a rifle, she is grabbing this:
1895GS.jpg

Until something changes or I acquire a different (ie: more suitable) rifle
 
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