The venerable .45-70 as an HD round

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My only thought is that recoil on that 45-70 can be pretty harsh. If your wife can handle that recoil then I think you have a pretty good set up.

I have done some online research, and the jury is out on a good loading. Some are saying lightweight bullet, at moderate speed, others say heavy bullet at slow speed. They heavy bullet seems to have the biggest chance of "overpenetration", but does the most damage.
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As far as loads, I think your HP is fine. Actually, I think virtually any thing you load it up with will be fine. If that gun is ever used for SD, you'll likely be shooting at very close range, let's say under 7 yards or so, using a high powered rifle with a heavy bullet. Any thing hit well with that 45-70 is going to stop no matter what bullet you've stoked it with. Don't over think it.
 
I shoot the Hornady Leverevelution ammo in my 1895 cowboy. They are a 325 Grain bullet comming out at 2050 fps at the muzzle. The thing I like about them is they are expanding not solids or "hollow points" that dont expand very well. If people put down elk and moose with 180+ grain bullets I can guarantee it will take down a BG. And as far as recoil I put a limbsaver pad on it and now my 7 year old sister loves to shoot it. Id put the recoil somewhere around the kick of a lightweight 270 or 308.
 
Leverrevolutions are GREAT. I ran some a few years ago.
I may have to get some more.

We are still looking. I may bring the 30-30 up, and feed it Leverreveloution.
Just the Guide Gun is most compact.
 
I don't think there is such a thing as a low-power .45-70 load. However, it will certainly do the job, although I'm not a fan of shorter barrelled rifles but the regular rifle is a little unhandy in tight places. I'm not sure the Guide Gun is short enough to make a difference.
 
I have an 1895 SS that I'm beginning to get comfortable with...

I realize everyone has an opinion, so... here's mine.

If I was going to use mine for HD, or if my wife was, I would think that a reasonably soft (unquenched wheel weights?) cast 350 gr bullet, loaded to about 1100-1200 fps would be a man-stopper of the first order. Personally, I think a HP bullet would be wasted at the lower velocities I would want to load.
The 45-70 at "low-teens" velocities is VERY manageable, recoil-wise. From the shoulder, it feels as if it's quite a bit less than 30-30 loads. (of course, they can be loaded down, too)
A 350gr bullet at 1200fps is considered a pretty heavy load from a .45 Colt, but it would be a creampuff from a levergun... and much easier to hit with, for most folks.
 
my suggestion would be a Keltec Sub2000 Glock mag carbine w/ 33 rd Glock mags. To be fair, I haven't put one of these through their paces with true blue defensive ammo like Corbon or HST's, but the one I had was 100% with 100 shots of Winny White box jhp's as well as several hundred fmj and outdid my friends sks in accuracy at 75 yards in the wind. I am not trying to discredit the lever gun or the shotgun or a high capacity rifle they're all great and I like and own them all, this is simply the decision I would make. If you hate Keltec (don't know why anyone would, they make great products at an affordable price) then substitute a Beretta CX4. I like the high capacity of the Sub with the Glock 33's though and plan on implementing one as my home defense gun soon as it's a weapon anyone in the house can handle and run pretty easily. You can put a decent light and laser on these guns as well, it seems like the universal answer for me.

And truth be told, no trolls are likely going to cheerfully walk away from a CM doubletap of even standard 115 gr jhp's.
 
kristop... said:
I'm thing a 400gr expanding projectile, loaded to HOT 45lc would be pretty effective. Any thoughts here.
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That would be quite a download. I'd be concerned that there'd be too much empty case to be guarunteed reliable ignition. I'm not sure if the 45/70 uses magnum rifle primers or not, but for this load, I would definitely use the magnum primers.

300 gr. is still a very heavy bullet for use against humans, and that is about the minimum for 45/70, so I'd go that route.

When you try these heavy .45 Colt loads, try a few with the barrel pointed at a lower angle, so the powder goes forward to its worst-case position for ignition.

Here's another thought: Use black powder, like in the original loadings. Black powder takes up more room in the case, so there would be less chance of unreliable ignition with lighter loads. Yeah, I think that's what I'd do. Light bullet, and enough black powder to make it shoot like a hot .45 Colt.

One last thought: Use load data for vintage Springfield Trapdoor 45/70s, not modern lever actions. (the Lyman manual has a separate category for these loads)
 
One of my favorite loads for my 45 70 is 4 150gr lead balls loaded into the case, the last one is seated at its circumverince at the rim of the case, they produce about a 6-8 inch spread at 100 yards out of my Ruger #3.
 
Any mono-bullet gun is not ideal for home defense. The 45-70 has to be among the worse. You might kill the perp you're aiming at and three other people you didn't see as the bullet zings right thru them. The bullet is not going stop with the first thing it hits. A shotgun is more ideal and with Federals Tactical Door Breach ammo, it's about as ideal as it gets.
 
As long as she is comfortable with it, the 1895G would be a great defensive tool. First of all, I would stay away from "premium" bullets designed for controlled expansion. Cheap 300 grain bulk hollowpoints like the Remingtons would be great. I would push them as fast as she is completely comfortable with. The faster the bullet opens up the better. I use the 405 grain Remington softnose at what should be about 1800 fps (I have never bothered to cronograph them) and they leave ridiculously large exit wounds on hogs. Hit a man in the chest with one of the 300 grain hollowpoints and the fight will be over immediately.


I have done some online research, and the jury is out on a good loading. Some are saying lightweight bullet, at moderate speed, others say heavy bullet at slow speed. They heavy bullet seems to have the biggest chance of "overpenetration", but does the most damage.
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Here is the short version. All else being equal, heavier bullets and lower velocity result in less less bullet expansion, less energy transfer, and typically greater penetration. Lighter bullets and higher velocity result in greater expansion, greater energy transfer, and typically less penetration. This why we have "premium" bonded core bullets. They are designed to hold together so that they will still penetrate at higher velocities. A cheap, lightweight hollowpoint at high velocity wouldn't penetrate well on a large animal but would create a devistating wound on a human torso.

The only down side I see to a long gun is clearance issues in tight spaces... but in a HD situation... you are not going to be clearing rooms like in the movies.. you lock the bedroom door... call 911... and defend your position.
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I agree this would be ideal, but with kids in the house, it is not happening.
 
45-70 for home defense????

I shoot a lot of 45-70, I load to orginal specs, like 500 grns to 1100 FPS or so, same with my 405s @ 1200 or there abouts.

I shoot them in creedmore matches, 800, 900, 1000 yards.

I sure as heck aint gonna touch one off in my house.

Unless you are protecting your live stock from varmints, I think rifle distance would be hard to jusify as self defense. Not in this country anyway.

If you really feel the need for a Lever Action Rifle for HD, it would seem to me the 38/357-44-45LCs would be a bit more logical.

45-70 ???? Geese, you muct have some HUGE bandits.
 
The OP indicated his nearest neighbor is hundreds of yards away, and so he's not concerned with over-penetration.

This link goes to a Box'O'Truth comparison of rifle rounds vs water jugs. The .45-70 load used was a 510gr bullet, velocity unknown, so the results are probably more dramatic than one would get with a 300gr or 400gr loaded slow, but still...

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot19.htm

Based on a couple of tests on the site, the M1 carbine looks like an interesting possibility... and it would be much handier in confined spaces than would an 1895G, with much, much faster follow-up capability.
 
The M1 carbine seems to be making a resurgence. John Farnam was singing its praises recently as a good choice for smaller people.

I recently read "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" about Jim Cirillo's elite anti-robbery unit back in the late 60s, early 70s, and he seemed to be a big fan of the M1 carbine. In fact, he indicates that they had more success with that than the 12 gauge. :eek:
 
I like the M1 suggestion. I forgot all about the little guy. I have also thought about finding a camp carbine, or Ruger Deerfield.

As of right now, I'm using what is in the safe. I know the .45-70 is a bit much, but it's the gun she's liking. I may have to go on the prowl for a small carbine again. As far as the CX's go, I had one and just didn't care for it.
 
If she likes and can use a 45-70 a 300 Gr. H.P. will produce an muzzle velocity/energy of 2000/2664 at home protection ranges that should be more than satisfactory. The velocity and energy do bleed off fast but at the range you say it should do very well. Just be sure it is something she can, and is willing to use. If she is not the two of you need to do something else. If she can't bring herself to pull the trigger she might as well stay with a can pepper spray.(I only say that because I know a few E-room nurses that just will not shot a gun because the see the ugly afters of a shooting and can not get there heads around it.)
 
IMO the best HD firearm for your wife is one she is confidant and competent using (if it's the 45-70 so be it). If you are going to load it mild I would look at cast hollow point bullets (as jacketed bullets may have expanion problems in mild loads and as someone said you should use magnum primers in mild loads). Another gun to look at would be a lever carbine (1894C) in 44mag or something like that (I would be worried about how well my wife could do follow up shots with a rifle with as much recoil as the 45-70). Another thing that a lever 44mag would have over the 45-70 is it (44mag) holds 9 rounds verses 4 in the 45-70 or even a 30-30 would make a good man stopper.

But the truth is most times when a HD firearm is going to be used its within shotgun range (50yards or less) so maybe you should look at the 20" barreled 1887 Lever Shotgun if your wife likes lever guns. IMO one thing you must do is have your wife practice shooting with follow up shots (maybe it would be worth sending her to a defencive firearm course that will teach your wife how to shoot with a gun she wants to use (not one they want her to use).
 
It'd certainly work I think the M1 carbine or pistol cal lever may be a better option. But given the circumstances I'd put some Federal or Winchester 300gr JHPs in the guide gun and quit worrying about my wife and worry about how to clean up the mess she'd leave behind.:rolleyes:
 
There is good advice posted above.

I would advise a two tiered defensive system for your home.

1. Get dogs. Preferably fairly large ones. How to train them? It's actually very simple...buy them as puppies, and treat them with love, kindness and gentleness. Let them hang around your wife as much as they want. You will be looked upon as the "alpha" male; your wife will be thought of as "momma".

When they get to be of age, and start gaining in size, you will have the most faithful, loyal and devoted guards you could ever wish for--who will not only sound the alarm, but will come out oiled up and ready to tear some *** out of anyone who proves to be a threat.

2. As for balance and portability, may I suggest that you not discard the .223/5.56 just yet? A .223 carbine would be the ticket; as long as you use proper ammunition.

FMJ will go right through--although the wounding characteristics of the FMJ are effective, a much better choice will be the .223 Remington with a jacketed soft point (JSP) design. This cartridge has it all--good recoverability, excellent accuracy, and will wound all out of proportion to its size.

As for the rifle itself, Benelli has a new one that is light, cycles well and consistently with almost zero recoil. I believe it takes M16 magazines.

Another possibility is the MSAR/STG-556. It is a bullpup design, and looks like the Steyr AUG. It balances VERY well, can be converted to a right or left hand shooter--and the 42 round magazine is a very good thing.
 
My HD rifle is a Marlin .357 Magnum carbine (1894C.) It's a little less powerful than a .30-30 but it holds twice as many rounds.

I would be concerned about massive overpenetration with .45-70

You might want to consider a 20 ga shotgun.

Select several candidates and let your wife try them and let her pick the one she likes.
 
On the dog front, we are covered. I have a very alert Miniature Schnauzer(Boomer) who is a great alarm and his "shadow is our 100+lbs Female Rottweiler Bella.

I appreciate all the advice!
 
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