The venerable .45-70 as an HD round

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kristop64089

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So, in my quest for a GOOD HD gun, I have decided that the easiest thing for my wife to use is a lever gun.

A few years ago, I had a gun rag that went into great detail, about how useful a Marlin 336 30-30 was as a HD gun. It was outfitted with a single point sling only. The author was won over with the setup, siting the lever action size, reliability, sights, and ease of use, made it a perfect set up.
I have always thought it was a good idea, but never wanted to devote my trusty deer slayer to it.

This is where my 1895GS Comes into play. We live in the country on an acreage, and my closest neighbor is a few hundred yards away. I have tried shotguns, but their bulk and action is an obstacle. (I also do not to subscribe to the "Pump Action Sound makes attackers Flee" School of thought). My wife just doesn't feel confident working the action under duress, and because of that, I am not happy.

So, I loaded up some 300gn HP .45-70 and hung the guide gun on the wall. She is pretty handy with a L.A. as I am as well. My question is, is there a preferred loading that one would use for HD. I am not worried about through and throughs, near as much as stopping a threat.

I have had darn near every rifle I own in this roll, and for one reason or another, I didn't like any of them for close range work.

If you see any flaws in my logic, please enlighten me. If you can push me in a different direction, be my guest. If you have any advice good, bad or otherwise, please let me know.
 
Stopping the fight before it starts would be the desired result.

IMHO the recoil of heavy rifle or shot gun loads would not accomplish the above in the offhand chance that there was a miss. Recovery for a second shot would not be nearly as fast as with a lighter recoiling choice. Although it should scare the b-jeebers out of a perp. Unless the perp is totally wacked out on goof balls or whatever.

A well balanced handgun would be first choice. But also remember it could be dark if such a thing happened and muzzle flash is a consideration.

I keep my trusty 357 close by with a short AR handy as well.
 
The 4570 will certainly work just fine. I would look into some quality hollow point ammunition. I am not sure what all is out there, but I know corbon makes excellent 3030 rounds ( I keep them handy for my lever). I would look for something similar. Work to load to get recoil to an acceptable level, and balance that with what velocity you are looking for. No need for anything atomic here for sure.

What is is the issue with the pump action? If it is a comfort thing alone, throw in some practice and it will get better. For me a pump has always been quicker and easier than a lever, but you guys may swing differently.

Any issue with a 223 autoloader or a 762x39 auto loader?
 
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I have a G29 Close by, and a few dozen others in a safe in the basement. We are good on Handguns.:D

As far as the loads, I am thinking low power rounds, pushing 300 grain(or so) HP bullets.

I have no problem with pump guns, but the L.O.P., overall length, recoil, and action adds up to a big problem for her. I have thought about going to a coachgun, which eliminates most of the problems, except one. I don't have one.;)

I well versed in escape and evasion, but that doesn't always work. AND our location being what it is, getting to safety is easier said than done.

I am not a big fan of the .223 (sold all of my AR's, crazy huh!) I have an AK or 2, and they rotate in occasionally, but I don't reload for 7.62x39 and haven't looked at frangible HD ammo lately.
 
I was gona say..can she do fast accurate follow up shots but using a 45 70..is follow up shots really all that necessary I mean..center mass if one doesn't do it..how many will it take :)
 
It would serve the purpose but it would be hard for follow up shot like some said and lets face it sometimes people rush their shots and dont make the first one count. Id look into a youth type shotgun for her.

And just a little warning if your using a gun for HD/SD DO NOT USE RELOADS! Its better to use factory ammo for this purpose, Ive heard of a few court cases of HD that were lost because the home owner was using reloads. Dont get me wrong its up to you to use what you want but why chance it, especially in this day and age.
 
I'm with y'all on a few points.

Our property is fenced and gated, In Missouri we have an EXCELLENT Castle Doctrine! With that said, here is a bit of back story on my wife, and the reason I'm looking at a rifle...
My wife is in nursing at a local rural hospital. This hospital provides care for the local prisoners from the State Prison, when the infirmary cannot. There are 2 on one campus, one houses Maximum Security prisoners, so quite often my wife is in CLOSE contact with violent offenders. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but here in the last month she has received FOUR collect calls from the prison. She knows of NOONE in prison that has her number, and none that would call her.
The only info she can gain is that the calls originated from the prison phones, but that is it. No idea who it is. We have made all the necessary calls to the correct people, and she is getting the same useless responses. Our justice/prison is screwed, and the prisoners have their right to privacy(I didn't know FELONS had rights???????????????)

SO, she works nights and sleeps days. I'm at work, and it's her and our baby home alone. We're no fools, and she is scared that if a prisoner got her CELL Phone number from just knowing her name, an address wouldn't be to hard. She knows how to work the pistols and revolvers, but with MO Castle Doctrine a PERCEIVED, Deadly or dangerous threat, where life (yours, mine or hers) is in imminent physical danger) can be dealt with, with deadly force. This can be acted out anywhere she/I are welcome guests, our home, and our property.
Our property extends past useful shotgun ranges.

I'm not going to get into an ethical or legal debate of said actions. She is scared, I am worried, and I went her to be trained and armed in such a way, that she can dispatch a threat and escape ASAP. She has shot the Guide Gun on mild loads, and found the recoil quite manageable. Working the action is second nature, and can be done from a firing position, and quite fast.

She doesn't like the AK's manual of arms, and hates the recoil impulse from it. That rules an AK out.
 
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My wife is in nursing at a local rural hospital. This hospital provides care for the local prisoners from the State Prison, when the infirmary cannot. There are 2 on one campus, one houses Maximum Security prisoners, so quite often my wife is in CLOSE contact with violent offenders. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but here in the last month she has received FOUR collect calls from the prison. She knows of NOONE in prison that has her number, and none that would call her.
The only info she can gain is that the calls originated from the prison phones, but that is it. No idea who it is. We have made all the necessary calls to the correct people, and she is getting the same useless responses. Our justice/prison is screwed, and the prisoners have their right to privacy(I didn't know FELONS had rights???????????????)

SO, she works nights and sleeps days. I'm at work, and it's her and our baby home alone. We're no fools, and she is scared that if a prisoner got her CELL Phone number from just knowing her name, an address wouldn't be to hard. She knows how to work the pistols and revolvers, but with MO Castle Doctrine a PERCEIVED, Deadly or dangerous threat(where life, yours, mine or hers is in imminent physical danger) can be dealt with, with deadly force. This can be acted out anywhere she/I are welcome guests, our home, and our property.
Our property extends past useful potentially useful shotgun ranges.
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Yikes, that's some creepy stuff. I don't want to give you more to worry about but to me it seems more likely that an employee at the prison, someone who had access to the phones is harrassing your wife. That could be worse because they arent locked up day and night and could present an immediate threat. I would convince your wife to keep a hangun that she is good with handy at all times, especially when in vulnerable places like the bathroom, or when sleeping, etc. For your .45-70 I don't know of any defensive loads but I agree that using a lighter load would be best. I would be comfortable using standard hunting ammo if I lived on acerage. Hope you get this resolved soon.
 
jhgreasemonkey,
We had taken that into consideration, and we know of one employee at the prisons. No personal effects are allowed in(phones, wallets, etc...)for this reason.
The times at which the numbers come thru, were always at the same time, and according to the employee, a normal time for prisoners to be at the call center.
It could be purely coincidental, or not. We will play on the side of caution.

We have been practicing with this rifle(as we speak even) and she shoulders it quickly, works the lever like magic, and feels that it's all-around balance and feel is a winner.

I figured we were stretching the boundaries, with this gun/cartridge combo. I know it's not considered an optimal round for inside, but we are looking for an "all around" performer here.
 
Nah. She'd only have time for one shot.

Also, has she ever shot it before? She may not be comfortable with that kind of recoil.

Any 1894 in 44 Magnum would be a much better choice, but I guess you don't have one.

How about a Beretta TX4? It seems to tick all the boxes: Shorter barrel, semi-auto for lower recoil and faster follow-ups, etc. Loaded with some 00 buck shot, I don't think one could do better for a home defense gun.
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Also, if she's asleep during the day, she may not wake up in time. Some type of alarm to wake her up would be good. It could be as simple as a portable alarm rigged to the door, or a dog that always barks when someone approaches the house.
 
Great choice playing on the side of caution. As far as using the rifle with nice balance and handling, I agree. That's a hugely important thing to have a rifle that handles well for you. On the cartridge choice, it sounds like you made sure she can handle that thumper so anything on the business end of that bad boy is going to get it. I know that to me lever actions handle like a dream. I would be perfectly confident using my win 94 .30-30 for any kind of HD because it handles so nicely due to the excellent balance shape and weight, it aims naturaly, and fires fast with good accuracy from here to out there. I think you are being smart here using a rifle that your wife is good and comfortable with.
 
What about a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag?

Plenty of factory ammo and packs a wallop.

Note:re-read some posts and it has already been mentioned.
 
it seems more likely that an employee at the prison, someone who had access to the phones is harrassing your wife. That could be worse because they arent locked up day and night and could present an immediate threat.
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I work in a county correctional facility and I will tell you that this is unlikely. Correctional employees are screened and backgrounded to the same standard as police officers and deputies, sometimes even more so due to the constant contact with bad guys, and the vast majority of them take their jobs and their oathes very seriously and would not perpetrate the same acts as those under their charge.

Inmate phone access in jails, prisons, boot camps, etc., is relatively ulimited, aside from disciplinary sanctions, mandatory time in cell and times when the available phones are in use by others there's nothing preventing any inmate phone access. At the state prison level well behaved inmates are now even starting to get computer/internet access which could facilitate searches of names and employers for personal information.

My best advice is to get on the internet and request your personal information be removed from any and all reverse lookup sites such as Spokeo.com, Whitepages.com, Dex.com, etc. These companies, by law, are required to remove your information within a certain time period, 48 hours if I remember correctly, if you request it. This doesn't make it impossible for soemone with ill intent to get your info but it does complicate it. Also if there are any threatening calls or voice mails be sure you save them if possible and report them to not only the prison but also the local police or sheriffs. Beyond that, most correctional facilities have fairly advanced monitoring systems on their phones to prevent inmates from contacting their victims or victims families or intimidating witnesses, etc. You should be able to request your personal phone numbers be restricted or blocked in their system so it can't be connected form nay one of their inmate phones.

With all that said when it comes to weapon choice, the weapon she is most comfortable with is the best choice. Consider devising hiding places, shooting tactics and evacuation procedures that are specific to your house and practice getting to those places and using those tactics so they become very familiar. Stashing handguns and prepaid cell phones in those hiding spots is not a bad idea either, that way access to the authorites and a weapon is always available. Sorry for the length of this. FWIW I hope those calls were just wrong numbers and none of this is necessary.
 
^I don't know that making his number blocked at the correctional facility is the answer. he said the calls he is getting are collect. SO the inmate calls collect and collect calls the OP. That may be the way around what you are recommending but it is nice to know that you can do that.

I think the .45-70 is a choice that wont disappoint, if it will do on bear it ought to do your local scumbags just fine. As you have already acknowledged you may get through and throughs, make sure she knows not to fire where a through may end up in baby's room, vicinity of crib/bed, etc. Its great that you understand the bullet's possible path of destruction but if she's the trigger man then she ought to understand it just as well.
 
A good COM shot from the old Government is gonna put them down but I'm worried about the recoil factor. You say you have a couple of AK's. That would be my choice, it's fairly compact, low recoil, reliable, and high capacity.
 
I think ur .45-70 will be fine as long as she is ok with the recoil and can pump rounds out. Personally I would let her shoot an AR-15, or the AK... The AK would fit the bill nicely, but if shes not comfy with it than it doesn't matter.

I really don't understand why ANYONE would prefer a handgun for HD. Handgun's are NEVER ideal, unfortunately I can't conceal my AR, or 12gauge. Inside the home I don't have to worry concealing anything.

The only down side I see to a long gun is clearance issues in tight spaces... but in a HD situation... you are not going to be clearing rooms like in the movies.. you lock the bedroom door... call 911... and defend your position.

Only thing my 1911 does for me in HD is gets me safely to wear the rifles or shotguns are... which is the other side of my bedroom.
 
I don't know that making his number blocked at the correctional facility is the answer. he said the calls he is getting are collect. SO the inmate calls collect and collect calls the OP. That may be the way around what you are recommending but it is nice to know that you can do that.
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Every corrections specific phone system I've seen is computer controlled and once a number is blocked in the system it can't be called from inmate accessible phones inside the facility in question. The blocked number can't be called free or collect and most systems now have "watch" capability to record the date, time and phone used to attempt to call a blocked or restricted number. I'm not suggesting this is the cure for whatever issue is going on but it's a good place to start.
 
I will be making calls to the prison for a block.

One thing I see concern about is recoil. I too am concerned, to an extent, but the felt recoil of the .45-70 isn't much worse than a 12gauge. Personally I think the impulse on the shotgun feels harder.

I have done some online research, and the jury is out on a good loading. Some are saying lightweight bullet, at moderate speed, others say heavy bullet at slow speed. They heavy bullet seems to have the biggest chance of "overpenetration", but does the most damage.

I'm thing a 400gr expanding projectile, loaded to HOT 45lc would be pretty effective. Any thoughts here.
 
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