The US currency vs. ...

"because it is europeans that basically control the gold market."

Uh, you sure about that?

If I'm not mistaken, the United States is the second largest producer of gold in the world, behind South Africa, although we've been trading back and forth with Australia for a number of years.


A silver-based currency would suffer the same fate as one based on gold IF no one else adopts the same monetary standard.

Oh, and here's another reason NOT to be the only nation on a metallic-backed currency mechanism...

http://www.reuters.co.za/locales/c_newsArticle.jsp?type=businessNews&localeKey=en_ZA&storyID=7605233


Your trading partners, if pissed at you, can REALLY screw with the value of your currency.
 
rich, considering that the us government is $7,717,009,809,507.08 and growing in debt, i don't see how our taxes can be paying for anything. except the interest on said debt. we are in big trouble here.
Red-
Have you done the math to support this claim?...it doesn't work. Also, look at Ford's Debt; or Microsoft's; or your own, if you have a mortgage, business loan, car payment or line of credit. I'm not saying we're in good shape financially, but I really think you're missing the point about how "Money" has worked since the first days we humans agreed to a collective token of value.

and all the bigwigs (warren buffet) who are dropping the dollar for foreign currency know it. who will be left holding the bag? who will end up profiting?
That's just crazy, Redhawk. Buffet may or may not be a bad guy. But he didn't get where he is because he's part of some shady Banking Cabal. He got where he is because of the magnificence of Free Market economics (and a bit of luck....just like Bill Gates and dozens of other self-made men). He got where he is because he took RISKS you and I wouldn't consider. He got where he is because he dreamed bigger than you and I are capable. Be proud of it....our children have hope of repeating it.

Rich
 
But he didn't get where he is because he's part of some shady Banking Cabal
have i some how infered this? all i said is as a smart investor, which he obviously is, the smart thing to do these days seems to be lose the dollars and invest in foreign currency.
http://www.forbes.com/window/free_forbes/2005/0110/036.html

ok, i may need some help interpreting this but:
2002 public debt interest expense - $332,536,958,599.42
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm

2002 total income tax - $796,986,268,000.00
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/02in01si.xls

ok, so it appears that the actual interest payment was slightly less than 1/2 of the total income tax. i am not sure how the priciple payment figures into this.

the point is that the public debt increases every year, and a huge chunk of our taxes goes to pay off debt. no one in politics since 1913 seems to be interested in reversing this trend.

but I really think you're missing the point about how "Money" has worked since the first days we humans agreed to a collective token of value
i understand how "real money" works. gold coins are "real money". even a fiat currency is "real money". central banking and fractional reserve banking and credit and interest payments on loans are a SCAM.
 
have i some how infered this? all i said is as a smart investor, which he obviously is, the smart thing to do these days seems to be lose the dollars and invest in foreign currency.
What you inferred is that guys like Buffet are in a no-risk position, making big money at your expense. On the other hand, the Japanese banks are buying dollars at record rates.....nearly 9X the effect of Buffet. What's up with that?
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/02/15/biz_japandollar15.html

the point is that the public debt increases every year, and a huge chunk of our taxes goes to pay off debt. no one in politics since 1913 seems to be interested in reversing this trend.
If that were your only argument here, I'd be standing with you shoulder to shoulder. But your argument includes claims of a central banking scam to rip you off by voodoo accounting. Wallew has already spoken to that as clearly as any man might.
Rich
 
As a note on people like Buffet - and other even wealthier folk; these people have the sort of buying power to break nations. In other words, more than enough to control particular markets. And as individuals, or more, control particular facets of finance and industry. So while their ventures can not be said to be virtually "risk free", they can operate in certain areas with a degree of certainty.
 
So while their ventures can not be said to be virtually "risk free", they can operate in certain areas with a degree of certainty.
LAK-
Tell it to the Hunt brothers. ;)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/041108/8eeworst_2.htm

In my previous post, I demonstrated that Japanese banks are betting directly against Buffet. It's a Zero Sum Game. Only one bet can win. So, what is it that Buffet is controlling that the Jap Banks aren't privy to?
Rich
 
Mike Irwin
"because it is europeans that basically control the gold market."
Uh, you sure about that?

Yep. There is a hefty domestic market for gold derivatives, but most physical gold is both produced and owned outside the U. S.

A silver-based currency would suffer the same fate as one based on gold IF no one else adopts the same monetary standard.

Accordingly it is Congress that is supposed to regulate the value of our currency, and it would be they who would control the value of silver coin. China does, currently, set the value of it's own currecy.

It really doesn't matter who else might or might not choose to adopt silver backed currency. It would be a matter of trade or not trade. If you have the goods someone wants, someone is going to come up with the money in an exchange transaction and pay a reasonable price for them - or do without.

We need to have a stable market for the staples of an industrial nation at home, producing what we need at home primarily for the domestic market. When it comes to exports, export the things we make that no one has the brains to make - or that we make the make better than anyone else. Not a moving state of uncertainty where we rely on importing things we should be producing ourselves - and no one has the faintest idea whether they'll be out of a job "again" in three years because all of a sudden the Peruvians are making Fords cheaper than anyone else.

If any country wants to be a regular, they are going to maintain a reserve of your currency - be it silver dollars or anything else. Right now anyone wanting to trade with a growing number of countries must use gold backed euros. They do it, or go without. (Iraq started demanding euros for their oil, which created a big headache for some people so they dealt with them a different way ;) )

Oh, and here's another reason NOT to be the only nation on a metallic-backed currency mechanism...

That's where much of the gold in U.S. Treasury has gone - to pay debts. People should ask themselves what is going on when they see ads in every swinging magazine and tabloid for the sale of Gold Eagles with regularity for years at a time. Why is the Treasury selling our gold and silver in such quantities??

In the case of the IMF Bank gold, notice they do not say who is going to buy it all. As if all they have to do is "put it up for sale" and there are thousands of people waiting to place their orders ;)

So who is waiting to buy it up?
 
since i left my warren buffet comments open for interpretation, let me make my stance clear:

warren buffet has made a fortune investing, therefore he is very good at it and knows what to look for, good signs and bad signs, when to buy and when to sell. warren buffet has made his position clear concerning the falling dollar:

A continuing fall in the dollar "could cause major disruptions in financial markets. There could be unpredictable side effects. It could be precipitated by some exogenous event like a Long-Term Capital Management," Buffett says, referring to the 1998 collapse of a steeply leveraged hedge fund.
http://www.forbes.com/window/free_f...5/0110/036.html

mr buffet is moving some of his investments out of the dollar to protect himself from a possible windfall.

the windfall may or may not occur. if it does, those invested heavily in the dollar could suffer major losses.

i am in no way shape or form attempting to associate warren buffet with any kind of "voodoo accounting" "shady Banking Cabal" "that's the Jews".

my argument concerning mr buffet is based soley on the original context of this thread: the declining value of the dollar is good. i offer up warren buffet as an example that the declining value of the dollar is bad.

mr buffet knows WAY more about banking and investing than i care to ever know, and he apparently sees the potential for the dropping dollar to cause serious problems. i agree with mr. buffet.
 
Redhawk said:
my argument concerning mr buffet is based soley on the original context of this thread: the declining value of the dollar is good. i offer up warren buffet as an example that the declining value of the dollar is b
Thanks for refocusing us all on the original thread topic, Redhawk. To the extent that your point is reflected in the above quote, I now understand it better.
Rich
 
Yes, they are buying dollars to "protect" their own currency....as in to effect the EXACT result for THEIR economy that Wallew states as good for the US in his opening post. So are you arguing that the Japanese and American governments are BOTH wrong, despite the fact that they are attempting to create OPPOSITE effects on the US Dollar? You don't get to have it both ways, RH.

If the article I cited demonstrates anything, it's that currency rates are highly delicate and extraordinarily intricate; Government "manipulation" is both necessary and traditional to maintain a stable economy; Tweaking involves far more art than science; The opposing forces of the Free Market pretty much guarantee that no-one gets a lock on the trends for the future.

I simply fail to see any foul here.
Rich
 
Rich,

I recall hearing about the Hunt venture. I wonder who was scrambling with the money to fund the "increased mining operations". No doubt when silver was at $50/oz the silver scrap came out of the woodwork of the most lowly households, but it takes alot of money and the right people to suddenly crank up the production of silver causing a skydive in a few days.

But I suspect it was some of the most powerful people in the world sitting on dollars. What happens when a precious metal appears to climb like that, is that the currency used to buy it falls. Not the other way around. So what they were doing threatened the stability of the fiat currency market starting with the dollar.

I can not say what is on Warren's mind right now. But he does pal around with people who make Bill Gates - not to mention Warren himself - look poor by comparison. These people are wealthy enough that what they are said to "be worth" over the table, publicly, may be but a part of their actual total worth. Who is to say what the actual net worth of Warren Buffet is, George Soros, and some of the names that are very rarely seen in popular print - if ever. Be it tangible physical assets - like gold etc - or other assets held by proxy.

For these people the world is practically their oyster. They have the sort of pocket money that third world leaders are bought and sold with. They have no ideological loyalty to any particular country and can live anywhere they please - it's their global plantation.

The Japanese are in bind - they've been in a very delicate position for many years now. They might have been, and could still become the starting point for a global economic catastrophy. They are going to do whatever they need to stay afloat.

It could be that Japan is being set up for the fall with us and our dollar. It can't be that far away the way things are going.
 
Just when Redhawk put the Thread back on track!

It could be that Japan is being set up for the fall with us and our dollar. It can't be that far away the way things are going.
LAK-
Reread your own last post. Basically, it states:
The Mega-wealthy and powerful are "pal-ing" around in some global enterprise to rip us all off. "The world is their oyster". It's their "Global Plantation". Shadow Governments exist that are far greater than the world's Super Powers.

When I point to one of the wealthiest families in the US, bankrupted and convicted by their own attempts to do exactly what you claim is going on, you offer unanswered, rhetorical questions; hinting that it only occurred because they really weren't in the inner circle. They were brought down by a larger "enterprise"....much as I hate to, I spell that g-l-o-b-a-l c-o-n-s-p-i-r-a-c-y

I really can't give rational response to an argument that begins with conclusion; and then uses the same predetermined conclusion to rationalize facts that clearly conflict with it. It's like arguing fact when the other guy is arguing clear paranoia.

Do you really believe that, at some point in wealth accumulation, people like Buffet cease being competitive Alpha-Males? That they stop competing with their peers in Free Market contests? That they suddenly become club joiners, portioning out "territories" like a bad Mafia flick?

True Believers. :rolleyes:
Rich
 
Rich,

Yes, they are pal'n around and ripping us all off. They lie, and they steal.

Not unless you see these people as being somehow insulated and separate from the wealthy oligarchs in the political sphere, can explain away the things the politicos have lied about in the past, and you do not see what they do as stealing.

You see it as ridiculous, I see attempting to explain away such things as more ridiculous. And so on. I find the notion that these people are all genuinely "competing" with each other ridiculous, and that somehow they have remained isolated from any geo-political agendas. It's absurd to even consider it, and people like Soros to name just one are openly involved in these things.

These people don't all get along, all of the time. Look at Howard Hughes as an example of someone who tried to get into a major TV network for example. Boy, someone didn't like that idea. Look at the story of Boeing, McDonnel and Douglas. There are hundreds of corporations that have competed on a marketing level.

But overall things seem to be doggedly marching on in one direction, and one direction only. I do not buy the idea that it is a continuing mere coincidence; day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade. That by mere coincidence things are moving steadily the same direction and any attempt by anyone to change it has little or no effect, and no matter who we get in government here, they all obligingly fall into line.

And while we're having our money stolen at source, and being lied to, the Warren Buffets, and the George Soros's are quite happy rolling the ball the same direction geo-politically - and doing their business as usual.

The article you found about the Hunts makes them out to be some of the richest folk on earth. This is simply not true. Now why should anyone ascribe credibility to the idea that the Hunts were anywhere near the wealthiest people on earth at that time? Either someone is a) ill informed b) spreading untruths. Either way, this is the sort of thing is universally accepted and seems to be an ongoing exercize.

I have a picture on file of Warren, Arnold and Jacob all smiling on his Waddesdon Manor Estate right before Arnold was "elected" governor. Matter of fact it is posted on this forum somewhere in another thread. Now let me guess; they all ran into each other in the "1st Class" section on a JFK to Heathrow flight? And Jacob said, "Say! Howabout you two gents come on out for some wine, cheese and biscuits!"

Now this is an AP photo taken of Arnold and Warren mixing it up with probably the single most wealthiest man on earth, and the most powerful in the financial world of Europa and elsewhere, and not but a couple of obscure online news services picked it up. So how did every single national sydicated TV news show, newspaper, magazine, radio and tabloid conveniently miss that one right before Arnold ran for the governor's seat in California?

Right, it was because every manager and editor of every major TV news, radio and print media "just didn't think anyone would be interested". All separately of course. ;)

Right. I see explaining away such things, one after another equally ridiculous as you see otherwise.
 
Now this is an AP photo taken of Arnold and Warren mixing it up with probably the single most wealthiest man on earth, and the most powerful in the financial world of Europa and elsewhere, and not but a couple of obscure online news services picked it up.

So what?

Powerful people hang out with other powerful people. What's there to report?

That's the convenient thing about conspiracies...if one is convinced of their existence, everything is evidence to that point. At some point, one becomes just as impossible to debate rationally as the guy who is convinced that the stickers on the backs of traffic signs are secret markers for the coming UN invasion.
 
in both japan and america it seems that the economic powers that be are taking desparate measures for desperate times. i suppose this is one of those things that if it succeeds, they are total geniuses, and if it fails they will suffer the scorn of the general public.

really only time will tell whether the move is good or bad for the economy, and whether the dollar will lose favor as the worlds currency of choice.

i for one do NOT want to see an economic crash the likes of the Great Depression again in this country, but i will say that i am aware the possibility exists and am taking appropriate measures.
 
LAK,

South Africa, a soverign nation, the United States, a soverign nation, Australia, a soverign nation, and Canada, a soverign nation, are the world's largest producers of gold, and none is in Europe.

In 2000 the US produced something like 311 million ounces of gold, South Africa over 400 million ounces.

I'm still not getting the connection between Europe and gold, as from what I can tell, the production in all of the nations in western Europe don't add up to what the US produces in a year.

A move by US producers one way or the other can seriously alter the face of the world's gold market because the United States is such a heavyweight in production.

"Accordingly it is Congress that is supposed to regulate the value of our currency, and it would be they who would control the value of silver coin. China does, currently, set the value of it's own currecy."

You're missing my point completely.

Say the US does adopted a silver-backed currency, where the price of silver is set by the government. If Russia decides to dump 1 million ounces of silver on the world market, the basis for the US currency has just taken a dramatic hit.

If, as you say, Congress then revalues the silver to match the new world tare value, what's the point of having a specie backed currency in the first place? The overall effect is exactly the same as having a fiat based currency.

It makes absolutely no sense.

You're also ignoring the point made earlier -- that maintaining a specie backed currency is phenomonally expensive.

That's wonderful.

Yes, China sets the formal exchange rate for its currency, a number of nations do that, but they don't back their money with specie. As such, unless someone starts counterfeiting Yuan, China still has domestic control of its monetary policy.

You can't be the only player with a hard-metal backing for your currency.


A good correlary example of why this simply won't work...

In the 1970s, Richard Nixon tried to get a handle on the economy by instituting a 90-day wage and price freeze in the United States. That's wonderful, but the US was the only nation to do that, and the second that that freeze expired, consumer prices spiked to match the previous 3 months gains, and then some.


Given the huges costs involved with maintaining a specie backed currency, the inflexibility of such a monetary system, and the unrealistic expectation that any of our foreign competitors would ever consider moving back to such a monetary system, I stand by my original assessment that such a move by the United States would be international trade and economic suicide.

If you really want to push the United States into an unending spiral of economic instability and uncompetitiveness, then by all means, be the only nation to peg its currency to a hard-metal backing.
 
LAK said:
Right, it was because every manager and editor of every major TV news, radio and print media "just didn't think anyone would be interested". All separately of course.
LAK-
Your tongue-in-cheek statement reveals your own conclusion:
That "every manager and editor of every major TV news, radio and print media" is under direct control of an unseen Invisible Hand, marching us lockstep toward the "Global Plantation". No mis-steps; no leaks; no defectors; no ex-wives talking....yet the handlers occasionally pose for photos together at their secret meetings.

And you call my positions "more ridiculous"????? :eek:
Pardon me while I tighten the strap on my stainless salad bowl helmet. :D
Rich
 
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