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The Ultimate Back-Up Weapon?
- Thread starter ReserveCop
- Start date
Whatever your backup, make sure it's legal
For example, in Kalifornia, it's a FELONY to carry a:
-dagger, dirk, switchblade, ASP and so forth.*
-fixed blade knife if concealed
See Cal Penal Code section 12020
A knife is not prohibited if it can only be opened manually using a thumb-stud or the equivalent.
It's ordinarily a misdemeanor to carry a firearm concealed if a first offense, but it can be charged as a felony under some circumstances.
It's generally legal in CA to carry (but check local laws for variances):
-a fixed blade knife openly
-a folding blade knife of ANY length openly or concealed
*it also prohibits: any "cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag..."
For example, in Kalifornia, it's a FELONY to carry a:
-dagger, dirk, switchblade, ASP and so forth.*
-fixed blade knife if concealed
See Cal Penal Code section 12020
A knife is not prohibited if it can only be opened manually using a thumb-stud or the equivalent.
It's ordinarily a misdemeanor to carry a firearm concealed if a first offense, but it can be charged as a felony under some circumstances.
It's generally legal in CA to carry (but check local laws for variances):
-a fixed blade knife openly
-a folding blade knife of ANY length openly or concealed
*it also prohibits: any "cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag..."
My defense weapon
Gosh, I'm 15 too, and there's no way I'm gonna be caught carrying a gun. I couldn't get my hands on one anyways. I carry a knife, though. Mine is a Buck Crosslock (has a straight and serrated blade, both seperate), and I'd use it if I felt my life was in danger. But for a fight, I'd rather have one of those batons. The knife is messy and too fatal for me to want to use in a fight. I'd hesitate too much if it was a fight, and I'd get beated and then they'd take the knife. I wouldn't hesitate as much with the baton, because it doesn't do as much permanent damage, but still hurts like hell.
Gosh, I'm 15 too, and there's no way I'm gonna be caught carrying a gun. I couldn't get my hands on one anyways. I carry a knife, though. Mine is a Buck Crosslock (has a straight and serrated blade, both seperate), and I'd use it if I felt my life was in danger. But for a fight, I'd rather have one of those batons. The knife is messy and too fatal for me to want to use in a fight. I'd hesitate too much if it was a fight, and I'd get beated and then they'd take the knife. I wouldn't hesitate as much with the baton, because it doesn't do as much permanent damage, but still hurts like hell.
guerilla1138
New member
No a baton doesnt do much severe permanent damage, but it can do a lot of damage.
If you read some of my older posts I make refference to carrying a straight cane made of ash wood for awhile, and also a pair of 20 inch ash batons occasionaly when I felt brave.
Now the ash cane is a little to short for me so I carry one of two customized crook top oak canes. I do have a knee problem so i do have a reason aside from defense.
But I will attest to the power of a cane, baton, whacking stick of whatever kind.
To make a long story short, one night soem guys jumped a firend of mine and I ran them off, all of the 5 except one took off after about one good solid whack apiece, but the last guy decided he could take me.
It was dark and I couldnt see to well, but what it appeared happened when he tried to punch me and I side stepped and brought the cane down onto his arm was that his arm broke bad enough to give him a compound fracture, bone sticking out the skin.
fight over.
And yes I agree with you, I am more willing ot use a big stick before I use a knife.
But if worse comes to worse I wont hesitate.
Or at least I hope I wont.
If you read some of my older posts I make refference to carrying a straight cane made of ash wood for awhile, and also a pair of 20 inch ash batons occasionaly when I felt brave.
Now the ash cane is a little to short for me so I carry one of two customized crook top oak canes. I do have a knee problem so i do have a reason aside from defense.
But I will attest to the power of a cane, baton, whacking stick of whatever kind.
To make a long story short, one night soem guys jumped a firend of mine and I ran them off, all of the 5 except one took off after about one good solid whack apiece, but the last guy decided he could take me.
It was dark and I couldnt see to well, but what it appeared happened when he tried to punch me and I side stepped and brought the cane down onto his arm was that his arm broke bad enough to give him a compound fracture, bone sticking out the skin.
fight over.
And yes I agree with you, I am more willing ot use a big stick before I use a knife.
But if worse comes to worse I wont hesitate.
Or at least I hope I wont.
To those who carry an ASP. How do you carry it? I carry one on duty but it sticks out too far for me to carry off-duty even with a long t-shirt. As far the ulimate backup weapon I think it is your knowledge and ability in hand-to-hand combat. I've been a cop 7 years now and can tell you all to go to as many defensive tactics courses as you can. You will use that knowledge alot more than your guns.
traitorjack
New member
griff: when I don't mind all the extra weight, I find that carrying my 26" ASP is pretty easy if I clip it inside the waistband, canted to follow the line of the body, snugged in however it's comfortable. of course, you have to have something sorta baggy to cover up, an untucked shirt, say, and it disappears pretty well. I had a 21", but I traded it with my brother for something, I forget what; he still carries it daily as a backup. work with it; it's not a big deal, so long as the weight doesn't bother you.
WoundChannel
New member
Maddog...
Check out Maddog's neck knives. They come in 3/16", 1/4" stock and also ceramic. They have tested the durability of the Mirage X ceramic knives by punching them through 55 gallon drums, cutting glass, and shaving steel. Light, durable, corrosion proof, and undetectable by metal detectors in the non-civilian models.
Check out Maddog's neck knives. They come in 3/16", 1/4" stock and also ceramic. They have tested the durability of the Mirage X ceramic knives by punching them through 55 gallon drums, cutting glass, and shaving steel. Light, durable, corrosion proof, and undetectable by metal detectors in the non-civilian models.
Just some 3AM mental meanderings:
Knives are good, but a lot of people carry them, so the chances of winding up in a knife-on-knife fight are pretty good. I want to have an advantage over the guy who brings a knife to the fight.
Tomahawks, where legal and used with some skill, are hard to beat in close-in non-firearm fighting.
http://www.americantomahawk.com/tomahawk/
Edmund Rowe has pointed out the efficiency of the common entrenching tool, and carry of an e-tool isn't as 'aggressive' as carry of a tomahawk.
Walking sticks are legal everywhere, very discrete, and stick-fighting schools are becoming more and more common so getting some stick skills isn't hard.
LawDog
Knives are good, but a lot of people carry them, so the chances of winding up in a knife-on-knife fight are pretty good. I want to have an advantage over the guy who brings a knife to the fight.
Tomahawks, where legal and used with some skill, are hard to beat in close-in non-firearm fighting.
http://www.americantomahawk.com/tomahawk/
Edmund Rowe has pointed out the efficiency of the common entrenching tool, and carry of an e-tool isn't as 'aggressive' as carry of a tomahawk.
Walking sticks are legal everywhere, very discrete, and stick-fighting schools are becoming more and more common so getting some stick skills isn't hard.
LawDog
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
Definately an ASP. I have been thinking of getting one real soon. I am undecided to get a longer or shorter one. The long one would be better and not a problem when in uniform. The short one would be nice for slipping in a deep pocket.
guerilla1138
I hope that this fits into this `discussion' of `backups'? I know that *I* consider my cane(s) as *both* a `primary' and a `backup' device as the situation warrants. `Primary' for those times when a firearm isn't `socially acceptable' or may be possibly `overkill' and cause `collateral dammage' and `backup' for those times when I am not able to utilize or not have my gun available. Also... {GRIN!} So many people, BGs included, don't think of a cane or `walking stick' to be a `defensive' weapon and tend to overlook them. For most of us, on duty police officers being an exception, a nice cane or `walking stick' can even be somewhat of a `fashion statement' along with being part of one's defensive gear. (And even for some police officers, IE: If one was `undercover'?, it could very well be such, too.)
A while back when the subject of `alternate' forms of `defensive carry' items came up I'd mentioned that I generally carry a cane or `walking stick' of some sort due to a slight disability I have. I'd also described, somewhat, what one of my canes looked like and how it was made. I finally found some sites that had several examples of ones that were useful and one that had one of what the one I'd mentioned that I like to carry. Here are the `names' and URLs of these sites.
Canes and Walking Sticks from The House of Canes and Walking Sticks
http://www.houseofcanes.com/index.html
This one has quite a few interesting canes shown. But, the one that I am going to use it to point out and that I sometimes find useful to carry is the `seat' cane or `english shooting stick'. It has a handle that, when folded out, forms a sort of a `saddle' that one sits upon. It also has a pointed, peg like, end on it that has a `ground plate' that folds out to keep it from sinking into turf and soft ground. (Though, on mine it also has a rubber cover over the `spike' to make it useable on smooth / slippery surfaces and is, since mine is an antique that I inherited from a dear departed uncle, all metal construction except for the leather of the seat and wrapping the handles.) Part of why I am mentioning it is that while it is a rather `unusual' cane to be carrying quite few people are more curious about it rather than being `put off' by it and don't realize that it can be used as a very devastating `defensive' device. Especially if used as a form of a `Bata' or `Shillelagh'. (Just ask, if you'd like to look him up at the CO state `pen', one `thug' I had occasion to use it upon several years ago. {BSE GRIN!})
Walking canes - walking sticks - rollators - fore-arms - accessories and more --
http://www.walkingequipment.com/
This site also had some fine examples of all sorts of interesting canes and walking sticks, too. The two that I'd like to point out are the `orthopedic' and the `sap' canes. The first one because, the first one on the left in the picture of the different `orthopedic' canes, it has the handle shape like my custom made all metal one I carry the most. Not only is that handle probably one of the most comfortable handles I've ever used but, it also can be very effective as a `hook' that can be used to `catch' certain anatomical `features' of the body to inflict very devastating *pain* and also remove certain weapons while being fairly hard for a BG to grab onto since it isn't as `open' as a regular `crook' cane. On mine it is a lightweight metal casting rather than the usual plastic. The second cane, while like sword canes is quite often considerd a `concealed weapon', is interesting because it has a fairly heavy ASP like spring hidden within it's shaft. Taken as a whole it provides several different possibilities for defensive use. I'm fairly certain that people here will be able to appreciate all of them. {GRIN!}
Irish Stick Fighting, Faction Fighting, Celtic Martial Arts
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html
This last site I'm including because besides offering a bit of `history' of the Shillegah also has information upon the useage of canes in general for defensive purposes. And for some may even provide a point of contact for people and places to get some possible training `locally'.
I hope that you have `fun' browsing the above sites and that they give you some interesting ideas for some `different' `backup' options. BTW, the `pool cue' cane actually works fairly well as a pool cue, too. {CHORTLE!} It *is* somewhat of a compromise either way but I haven't any real complaints with mine even though I do happen to have my own nice two-piece cue and quite a few better canes.
I hope that this fits into this `discussion' of `backups'? I know that *I* consider my cane(s) as *both* a `primary' and a `backup' device as the situation warrants. `Primary' for those times when a firearm isn't `socially acceptable' or may be possibly `overkill' and cause `collateral dammage' and `backup' for those times when I am not able to utilize or not have my gun available. Also... {GRIN!} So many people, BGs included, don't think of a cane or `walking stick' to be a `defensive' weapon and tend to overlook them. For most of us, on duty police officers being an exception, a nice cane or `walking stick' can even be somewhat of a `fashion statement' along with being part of one's defensive gear. (And even for some police officers, IE: If one was `undercover'?, it could very well be such, too.)
A while back when the subject of `alternate' forms of `defensive carry' items came up I'd mentioned that I generally carry a cane or `walking stick' of some sort due to a slight disability I have. I'd also described, somewhat, what one of my canes looked like and how it was made. I finally found some sites that had several examples of ones that were useful and one that had one of what the one I'd mentioned that I like to carry. Here are the `names' and URLs of these sites.
Canes and Walking Sticks from The House of Canes and Walking Sticks
http://www.houseofcanes.com/index.html
This one has quite a few interesting canes shown. But, the one that I am going to use it to point out and that I sometimes find useful to carry is the `seat' cane or `english shooting stick'. It has a handle that, when folded out, forms a sort of a `saddle' that one sits upon. It also has a pointed, peg like, end on it that has a `ground plate' that folds out to keep it from sinking into turf and soft ground. (Though, on mine it also has a rubber cover over the `spike' to make it useable on smooth / slippery surfaces and is, since mine is an antique that I inherited from a dear departed uncle, all metal construction except for the leather of the seat and wrapping the handles.) Part of why I am mentioning it is that while it is a rather `unusual' cane to be carrying quite few people are more curious about it rather than being `put off' by it and don't realize that it can be used as a very devastating `defensive' device. Especially if used as a form of a `Bata' or `Shillelagh'. (Just ask, if you'd like to look him up at the CO state `pen', one `thug' I had occasion to use it upon several years ago. {BSE GRIN!})
Walking canes - walking sticks - rollators - fore-arms - accessories and more --
http://www.walkingequipment.com/
This site also had some fine examples of all sorts of interesting canes and walking sticks, too. The two that I'd like to point out are the `orthopedic' and the `sap' canes. The first one because, the first one on the left in the picture of the different `orthopedic' canes, it has the handle shape like my custom made all metal one I carry the most. Not only is that handle probably one of the most comfortable handles I've ever used but, it also can be very effective as a `hook' that can be used to `catch' certain anatomical `features' of the body to inflict very devastating *pain* and also remove certain weapons while being fairly hard for a BG to grab onto since it isn't as `open' as a regular `crook' cane. On mine it is a lightweight metal casting rather than the usual plastic. The second cane, while like sword canes is quite often considerd a `concealed weapon', is interesting because it has a fairly heavy ASP like spring hidden within it's shaft. Taken as a whole it provides several different possibilities for defensive use. I'm fairly certain that people here will be able to appreciate all of them. {GRIN!}
Irish Stick Fighting, Faction Fighting, Celtic Martial Arts
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html
This last site I'm including because besides offering a bit of `history' of the Shillegah also has information upon the useage of canes in general for defensive purposes. And for some may even provide a point of contact for people and places to get some possible training `locally'.
I hope that you have `fun' browsing the above sites and that they give you some interesting ideas for some `different' `backup' options. BTW, the `pool cue' cane actually works fairly well as a pool cue, too. {CHORTLE!} It *is* somewhat of a compromise either way but I haven't any real complaints with mine even though I do happen to have my own nice two-piece cue and quite a few better canes.
Al Mondroca
New member
Weird Format
Why is Runt of the Litter's message so much wider than all the others? I've seen this happen before. Sometimes entire threads are like that, and it's a major pain in the ass because you can't read the messages without scrolling back and forth and back and forth.
Why is that? And what can be done to STAMP IT OUT!?
Why is Runt of the Litter's message so much wider than all the others? I've seen this happen before. Sometimes entire threads are like that, and it's a major pain in the ass because you can't read the messages without scrolling back and forth and back and forth.
Why is that? And what can be done to STAMP IT OUT!?
The comment on carved canes reminded me of the knurled grips on Kel-lites ( OK, I'm an old fogey ) or Mag-lights, which as Mas Ayoob pointed out leave distinctive marks and even scrape off and hold tissue/blood/hairs. Good point, kinda hard to explain why your skin matches his carved cane.
Bout 25 years ago I picked up a Kel-lite C-cell baton light and took the baton cap off, cut it down a few inches and substituted a flat "flashlight" type cap on it. Think it was 6 ( maybe 7 ) C-cells but I added a couple dummy cells to fill the thing all the way. Then I turned off the knurling and anodizing and painted the the thing a crackled silver. Don't know what it was, but it was obviously a flashlight and not a baton.
Back in my younger days during my internship with Parole and Probation I carried a 6 D-cell Kel-lite. I retired it when I got hired as social worker, but I still have "old Ex-Lax" ( named that cause when I made home visits they invariably had to flush the toilet before answering the door.
Bout 25 years ago I picked up a Kel-lite C-cell baton light and took the baton cap off, cut it down a few inches and substituted a flat "flashlight" type cap on it. Think it was 6 ( maybe 7 ) C-cells but I added a couple dummy cells to fill the thing all the way. Then I turned off the knurling and anodizing and painted the the thing a crackled silver. Don't know what it was, but it was obviously a flashlight and not a baton.
Back in my younger days during my internship with Parole and Probation I carried a 6 D-cell Kel-lite. I retired it when I got hired as social worker, but I still have "old Ex-Lax" ( named that cause when I made home visits they invariably had to flush the toilet before answering the door.
justice4all
New member
I can't believe that no one has mentioned a big dog yet. Deterrence is the best weapon. I'd rather have people know that I am not defenseless, than have them have to learn that I'm carrying the things mentioned above.
Pepper Spray - Fox LABS 5.3
pepper Spray -- the right strength can nullify 99% of attackers - even up tp 30 feet away. This would enable you gain the momentum and make use of your sidearm or get the heck out of harms way.
Who wants to go pig stickin' when you can nullify a situation pretty quickly and harmlessly.
Get FOX Labs 5.3 SHU stream spray and you are in business. Stream will run down a forehead into the eyes of an attacker wearing sun/glasses and will not blow back into your face. It does have a 30-354' reach.
--John
pepper Spray -- the right strength can nullify 99% of attackers - even up tp 30 feet away. This would enable you gain the momentum and make use of your sidearm or get the heck out of harms way.
Who wants to go pig stickin' when you can nullify a situation pretty quickly and harmlessly.
Get FOX Labs 5.3 SHU stream spray and you are in business. Stream will run down a forehead into the eyes of an attacker wearing sun/glasses and will not blow back into your face. It does have a 30-354' reach.
--John
The Sniper
Inactive
I believe that a quality knife either fixed blade or one hand opener is a solid choice - but learn how to use it properly. Take the time to train with any weapon that you intend to carry and defend yourself with. Make a commitment to continue your training on a regular basis to remain proficient.
A weapon that you are not familiar with is not much of a defense - but they do make interesting paper weights.
A weapon that you are not familiar with is not much of a defense - but they do make interesting paper weights.
It is legal to carry a knife in most states. Don't let any local yokel tell you otherwise. Most agricultural states (MO being a notable exception.) don't retrict knives because Corn knives become weapons then. Even states with limits usually have one you cna work with--5.5" in TX, for example.
I have msot states on file if you care to email me at daggers@indy.net (I'm a custom maker and retailer--I have to have a passing fam with them)
best weapons: boots and walking sticks are legal everywhere. Kubotans everywhere except NYC.
Chemical sprays aren't worth a damn. Some are immune, some run through them, there's no range in wind, you might get a faceful...it won't even stop my neighbor's hounddawg from barking, and that's a police strength spray.
Batons if they are legal, or brass knucks, assuming you have time to put them on--easy to use. (they are legal her in Indiana. Actually, almost everything is legal here, except beer on Sunday).
Good neck knives, but hard to justify other than as a weapon. A good folder with tape residue is a "tool for opening boxes."
I don't recommend push daggers. all you can do is stab. Get a good swept point or tanto. Daggers are illegal some places, and hard to justify except as a weapon (and if the poor young man who was taking a late night stroll with a tire iron and a collection of wallets he happened to find sues you, that WILL be important.)
I love the Camillus Cudas. Cold Steel, Spyderco, some Bucks, Benchmade, all are excellent folders. And even in CHicago with a 3" limit, they are mean enough to work.
"Remember, the best weapon you have is between your ears and under your hair...provided it's loaded." Heinlein
I have msot states on file if you care to email me at daggers@indy.net (I'm a custom maker and retailer--I have to have a passing fam with them)
best weapons: boots and walking sticks are legal everywhere. Kubotans everywhere except NYC.
Chemical sprays aren't worth a damn. Some are immune, some run through them, there's no range in wind, you might get a faceful...it won't even stop my neighbor's hounddawg from barking, and that's a police strength spray.
Batons if they are legal, or brass knucks, assuming you have time to put them on--easy to use. (they are legal her in Indiana. Actually, almost everything is legal here, except beer on Sunday).
Good neck knives, but hard to justify other than as a weapon. A good folder with tape residue is a "tool for opening boxes."
I don't recommend push daggers. all you can do is stab. Get a good swept point or tanto. Daggers are illegal some places, and hard to justify except as a weapon (and if the poor young man who was taking a late night stroll with a tire iron and a collection of wallets he happened to find sues you, that WILL be important.)
I love the Camillus Cudas. Cold Steel, Spyderco, some Bucks, Benchmade, all are excellent folders. And even in CHicago with a 3" limit, they are mean enough to work.
"Remember, the best weapon you have is between your ears and under your hair...provided it's loaded." Heinlein
At the far end, a friend of mine who needs a cane made one from steel pipe, tipped with brass and headed with brass...
under the cap was a Schrader valve. Inside was 4 oz of mercury. He drew it down to a 28" vaccum, so the mercury would slosh easily...
when you swing it, the weight shoots to the end and adds so much to the impact.
Or, just lift and drop. I watched him break a brick. I can imagine a mugger's foot...or ribs...or teeth...
Mercury is pricey, but WHAT a weapon. And who'd question the slight, gray-haired gentleman with the limp?
under the cap was a Schrader valve. Inside was 4 oz of mercury. He drew it down to a 28" vaccum, so the mercury would slosh easily...
when you swing it, the weight shoots to the end and adds so much to the impact.
Or, just lift and drop. I watched him break a brick. I can imagine a mugger's foot...or ribs...or teeth...
Mercury is pricey, but WHAT a weapon. And who'd question the slight, gray-haired gentleman with the limp?