The Secret Police of Kansas City, Missouri?

Over 30 years ago in the city of New Rochelle NY there was a rag tag bunch dubbed "The North Ave. Irregulars". They were led by a clergyman whose name was (I think) Mann . They spied and reported on many things . New Rochelle was ALLEGED to be some kind of Mafia suburb . The only thing that was proven was that Poo does really run downhill . At the bottom looking up was Det. Lt. Anthony Capparelli Everybody walked but him . He was thrown off the force with not even a good hearing . These citizen groups are tolerated but I have never seen any really earth shattering results . I do think that Imperialle and Sliwa did good since they went face to face with proven bad guys . On the other hand we have those that will try to buy a gun and want to burn the gun store owner . I would like to see the news story about them meeting "Slug" in a back alley and buy a stolen pistol out the trunk of his car and them performing a citizens arrest . I would buy a ticket to that one .
 
Can I add my insight?

Actually, many cities have considered doing this. There are a few rules invoked that aren't mentioned, but here's the basics:

One citizen from a certain neighborhood gets a radar gun. They are to report once a week (minimum) the number of speeders that come through the area, along with license plates. They also set up time/day tables to set patterns. They report the license plates to see if the speeders are from that neighborhood or if they are from somewhere else in town.

The reason for this is to decide (with good knowledge) where to post traffic patrols. This would involve adding two to three officers a couple of days a week strictly to hard copy speeders. This would ideally cut down on speeding, thus cutting accidents. Ideally.

Would it work? Probably not. For one, if S1 is carrying the radar gun and sitting throughout the neighborhood four to five days a week and observes S2 speeding three out of those five times, he reports S2. S2 receives a ticket three weeks later from O1. S2, furious over the ticket, goes to S1's home. S2 and S1 exchange words, causing S3 to call the police for a disturbance. S2 gets a firm escort away. When questioned, S1 admits that he is on "citizen speed patrol" and has caught S2 speeding several times. S2 is upset over the ticket, which he believes to be caused by S1. O2 files the report, noting the cause of the disturbance to be circling around O1's ticket to S2.

So, what's the problem here? What if S2 had decided to strike S1? Or shoot S1? Then you get the antis screaming "Random violence." They don't like us now...what are they going to think if that happens?

Yes, that is all worst case scenario. But it's food for thought. :D
 
I can see a point with citizens watching out for their neighbors in residential areas.

However, there are many problems that can result when private citizens start acting as the "Hall Monitor" or "Citizen Soldiers". I am probably going a little overboard here in my terminology. But you get my point.
 
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Citizens Monitoring Citizens

It would be my guess, that most of the people who see citizens with radar guns, as only being benign (and not symptomatic of a growing authoritarian presence in society), are probably less that 46 years old. Why is that? Because you have never experienced the threat of the Cold War, e.g., the Cuban Missile Crisis and seeing the effects of totalitarianism; via the news and other sources, on an almost daily basis. It would also be my guess, that most of you have rarely, if ever, taken the time to talk with WWII veterans who fought the tyrannical leaders of Europe or Japan, or talked with any survivors of the Holocaust.

My point being, that you have no real frame of reference for understanding what exactly this seemingly innocent public safety plan of, "citizens with radar guns", is truly symptomatic of. That is, the coming Police State. I am quite aware, that in and of itself, "citizens with radar guns", are not a threat to our Civil Liberties (and may even help reduce speed violations somewhat). However, if you look at all of our other Constitutional Rights that are being slowly and insidiously destroyed, then when viewed collectively, is indicative of an overall plan by Government - to intrude into our lives in an ever expanding manner - and therefore is, cause for alarm.

While Adolf Hitler was building his Nazi coalition, many people said it would amount to nothing, "Mere nationalism", they said. After he was elected, and required all firearms be registered, they postulated, "If you are not doing anything wrong, what's to worry about?" When certain types of guns and/or calibers were confiscated, most of the people responded, "It's for public safety, and who needs all those guns anyway?" By this time, many Germans; especially Jews, who knew history well, recognized the patterns, and realized that a totalitarian government was being created. They warned their friends, applied for immigration visas to the U.S.A., and other friendly countries, and were able to save themselves. The others scoffed at their "paranoid" ideas, and called them alarmists.

A reading of George Orwell's 1984, or Alexander Solshenitzen's, Gulag Archipelago, would be a good start to anyone wanting better insight into Police State mentality. Other related sources of information are: Constitution Party, GOA, and JPFO. Last, take a look at the second photo of a statue at the UN building. There shouldn't be any doubt as to what they want to accomplish here in America.

The biggest threat, however, is our own complacency. As long as we are having a 'good time' (eating, drinking, and making merry), then "why upset ourselves with such negative talk?" This 'live for today only' attitude, is the opiate of our society, which blinds us to potential threats looming on the horizon. Already in England (esp. London), video cameras are on most of the major streets. They are connected to computers with face recognition software, that are maintained by law enforcement, and other Internal Governmental Security agencies. (Similar systems are starting to be installed in southern California as well.)

This is not a hopeless situation however, the damage can be undone, and the coming worse case scenarios prevented, but only if, the majority of the American people get politically active now, before it is too late!

Final Thought: Be wary of those who love to cry, "Peace and safety".

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1Thessalonians 5:3)
 
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Cagoatee,

Are you proposing that we prevent a developing totalitarian society by banning the civilian use of radar guns?

Catch-22.
 
In MI the first seatbelt law was enacted in the late 80's. The state said it would only be able to ticket you after being pulled over for a second infraction. Being pulled over for a headlight being out, or faulty equipment, which you could correct within 10 days, and not owe a fine, now the department could make money on a seatbelt fine. I know this because before this law a wayne county sheriff said his commander said not to pull people over for faulty equipment, only fineable offenses, because they needed to raise money. Well fast forward 10 years, the state says seat belt usage is not "high" enough they passed a law that not wearing a seatbelt is now a reason for the police to pull you over. I drive the vehicle registered to my wife she drives the vehicle registered to me. Who gets the letter? In a traffic cam that catches red light runners, what happens? I let several people use my vehicle on many occasions, I get a ticket for something I never did, and have to go to court to prove it. When being pulled over by a human, they use ID to write a ticket, not a vehicle. What about a household with twins, or children who look alike. A radar gun that is not secured is not "accurate", point it at a wall and move the gun. As for cost you have to have a person look up a plate, produce a letter, and mail that letter.
 
CA goatee, thanks for the well written response of why these trends are disturbing.
Concerning the citizens with radar guns, no it won't bring the fall of the republic. But the thought which goes behind, the whole concept of using these means, for a activity which is little more than a defacto revenue collection...is disturbing. Reality check, most speed traps are not the result of safety needs. And certainly highway safety is not addressed by having anybody ('civilians included) sit in a fixed place, doing nothing but scanning away with a laser/or radar gun. Now, if the safety issue is a actually a concern, patrol units need to be actually out patrolling, being in more potential places to be available to observe the reckless/drunken drivers, who might actually be endangering public safety, that would be a more appropriate tactic... (or citizens reporting same with cell phones...but how would that matter if the LEO is parked 20 miles away, immobile and irrelevent) Observation is certainly not enhanced by immobility.
What's more disturbing about this trend, is how as a people we see nothing amiss with a informant culture, which in this instance is going to do little more than kick some revenue off of people who might, gasp!, be 5 miles over the limit.
And even here in the hinterlands, this type of thing is getting completely out of hand. Largely because one of the aspects of 'homeland security' was kicking money to rural PD's, who applied it to largely useless toys such as expensive SUV patrol cars. Now the grants are gone, and gosh!, how will they keep all that neato stuff?. By sitting immobile on the same stretch of road, for 5 hours or more, waiting for somebody to accidentally kick over 5mph. In the meantime, the crank rolls on the side road, right past all this alleged investment in public safety.
So, 'civilians' being involved in these kind of games, will have as little to do with real public safety as it does LEO.
Plus it overloads court dockets for little rationale excepting some revenue.
What have we become...?
 
What have we become...?
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If the 200+/- million of us who aren't gov't employees would show some "interest" - all at once - many of these "idiosyncrasies" would be nulled before they got started.

Once again I say the language in - deep down within dark pages - of bills enacted will one day raise its ugly head. How they pass bills that they never (or couldn't have) read, I'll probably never know. But when lower level staff (etc.) get to flesh out the bills, one just doesn't always know what's there. I believe there is a very recent case-in-point, but don't know the "real" story.

-Andy
 
Andy, I'd hope so...the problem is that too many of the 200 million are so caught up into image but not the idea, and that spurious fantasy is all that the powers often wish to provide. How many intrusions are so easily digested under, "homeland security, war on terror, safe neighborhoods, or it's for the children"?
That's perhaps where this country will gently trip onto the path to loss of liberties and de-facto tolitarianism.
It won't be by the tank or the iron boot, but rather by the incremental acceptance of images, which obscure the unintended consequences of the initial motives. "We meant to do good by that measure, but didn't think it would go that far", is a wonderful way to wake up one day and find your country is no longer yours.
Its even evident here in NE Montana, where to travel to shop, entails running a gauntlet of 'passage taxes'...what must it have become elsewhere?. But many here, still believe that the type of activities mentioned in this thread, will have no adverse effect on their freedoms. And by wrapping themselves in the flag, being blinded to 10,000 intrusions, what service are they doing for the liberties which others have fought and died (and still do) to retain?.
Blind patriots are not the ones to catch the dropping torch.
 
My take on this.

When people call into the Police Dept to complain about speeders the Officer asks;

1) what time does this occur most often

2) is there a specific vehicle(s) involved

The reason they ask this is they would like to catch the speeders. The usual reply to these questions is:

"Every day, all hours!"

Well, the Police don't have the man power to put a squad on everyones street everyday all day. That's why they ask the questions they do, to intelligently direct the assets they have.

To the point:

I suspect what this "Citizen Radar Gun" program is for, is to hopefully get a more accurate feel for the speeding problems (time/location/frequency) in neighborhoods. I suspect this works better than relying on citizen phone calls stating "They drive by here at 80 mph all day/night!!!"

jmho
 
They can do this with more accuart equipment, that has no bias, that is a sign, that posts the speed, and lets the driver know that they are speeding. These may have devices that monitor times, and speeds. They also have devices that attach to trees, and posts. I have a big problem with people reporting my plate and the police sending me a letter. It sounds like intimidation, and like I said above, they never know who is driving, the letter is BS. If they get complaints, put up a better, impartial, stationary device. Reserve police, are uniformed, and trained, they also usually are paired with actual police officers. Some cities actually hire most of their force from the reserves.

http://www.policeone.com/police-technology/radar/articles/89886/

I have had problems with busybodies, one lady on my street thought that I was driving on here lawn. She did not realise that the HS kids, cut through the street to get to fast food restaurants during the day. She just saw me come home after work, with a loud exhaust system, and assumed I drove on her lawn. She called the cops and said she saw me do it. She worked during the day, and never saw the HS kids, my dad did because he came home for lunch sometimes. The police came up and hassled me at my front door, they said I had dirt on my tires, I said the whole road is unpaved of course I have dirt on my tires, arrest me, or leave. She blamed me for having parties, and broken bottles were in front of her house we always parked on one side of the street during parties, to make sure there was no traffic problems, I can't police my guests once they are off my property, and they might have never been my guests, I probably kicked people like that out of my house. I don't think I want her having a radar gun. My parent moved to a new house, in a small developement they moved into the first house built. I never lived their visit a couple times. The neighbor had sod installed, and asked if we were pulling up the edges of the sod, I was 22, it was raccoons looking for grubs, or other insects, my dad saw the raccons, but this guy has the B***s to accuse me of messing with his sod.
 
Once again, who cares who has radar guns? It doesn't come with a badge or book of blank tickets.

This will not "go down in your permanent record."
 
If the police send a letter, you had better believe it will be recorded, they have to justify someone working, and if you access the Driver's license database, you leave a trail. There are much better ways to decide, if a speed enforcement zone is needed. This is exactly how they start to cut into personal freedom, inch by inch, not giant leaps. Before President kennedy was assinated, you could actually buy a gun through the mail. The salem witch trials, comes to mind, keep an eye on your neighbor he could ba a terrorist. I can't believe that in this liberal state of MI the right to be searched without cause had been upheld, and sobriety checkpoints are illegal.
 
Well since it 'doesn't go down in your permanent record', should it ever have been issued in the first place?.
To stop someone, or even do so by secondary presence, and coerce them to appear in court, or pay an uncountested fine...is exerting substantial authority.
Now, to state that, it's Ok because its not in your 'record' seems to evade the issue that this, is indeed a situation where that authority is being applied on a inconsistant basis for generally very trivial things.
And so, by any standard how is it credible?. Because some machine, or ill trained volunteer has done so?. Or because some LEO is applying a standard (and second guessing the statutes) which is premised on a flexible discretion dependent on his or her mood?. Sorry folks, as good as many LEO are, there are a substantial number who lack the abilities, intellect, or judgement to be making these kind of passing decisions.
If the system is going to exert authority, it should do so in a consistant manner...not according to the disguised needs of revenue, or by the inconstant moods of the issuing authority.
When I worked for the courts, I saw many of these kind of infractions issued on very shaky premises, and attempts were made to extend fines/punishment because of 'bad attitude' by the recipients. Usually that 'attitude' was little more than frustration being caused by the exercise of arbitary power, especially when it was premised on blatant revenue collection.
So, is the expectation to accept it all, because its not permanent?
If so, the loss of respect for our system will certainly be permanent. It's often the overuse of the trivial which is the breaking point, when people lose respect for the system, not the extremes.
And the badge thing, good gods. It might be helpful to be reminded that LE and the system within which it operates, is civilian. They are not above the rest, and once the idea is expressed that they are, therein it is no longer community safety, but community occupation.
 
The people who right laws. Pass laws. Call laws constitutional, or necessary for the greater good of society at the cost of individual liberty. The people who ban certain weapons for looking bad. Tell people that injesting certain substances is bad, and therfore illeagal, while people bungy jump for no good reason. They in that particular instance is the Executive, judicial, and executive branch of MI. In my post. It can refer to the same branches od the federal federal government. Almost 100% of the time they are elected officials, but they can be appointed. The people who Ilike to call your parents after you turn 18, because they treat you like a child.
 
Question, who is "they"?
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I have to ask who did you think I meant? Did you think I meant some conspiracy of the world bank, or 400 year old college groups, or whatever group that talkradio, or the internet says is taking over the world. I am not a conspiracy person. The government is our biggest problem in this country. Too many people think they can live people's lives better than them, and somehow the people who seem to know the best and seek power, have the worst problems, govenors with secret sex lives, president, and lawmakers withmistresses, or substance abuse problems. They tell us how to live our own lives, but can't even keep there own lives in order. I am afraid of people who seek power.
 
I have to ask who did you think I meant? Did you think I meant some conspiracy of the world bank, or 400 year old college groups,
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Whenever somebody asks "who is they?", they're regurgitating a catch phrase they saw on TV and have been totally convinced by the mainstream media that you're totally insane if you think that there's a group or organization out there other than Al-Qaeda or the PLO that means to subjugate you and do you harm.

Conspiracy is reality. Conspiracy is not a naughty word, nor should it provoke fits of laughter by default.
 
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