The real difference, .45acp vs 9mm

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What is becoming clear to me is that many people don't hunt deer with handguns.
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Many people don't. Some do, but live in states where neither the .45acp or the 9mm Luger are legal for deer hunting. Some people don't hunt deer with a handgun, but carry a handgun while deer hunting.

I grew up in a state where, literally any centerfire handgun larger than .25 caliber was legal for deer hunting. Never saw anyone hunting deer with anything less than a .38 caliber revolver, though others were carried (including .22s) for finishing shots.

Moved to a state where not only were the 9mm and .45acp not legal for deer, (at all) but neither were .357,41, & 44 Magnums, UNLESS the barrel was 6" or longer.
 
stinkeypete said:
What is becoming clear to me is that many people don't hunt deer with handguns.

If you are going hunting for a white tailed deer and we only have a .45acp and a 9mm, who do you think is bringing home meat and who is out in the dark tracking a blood trail?

I believe in science and statistics, but you need to know what you are measuring.
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I shot a deer with a handgun, did not choose a 9mm or a 45 acp ...

wait for it ... :p

10mm Colt Delta Elite and Hornady 155 XTP.
In gel the 155 XTP expands to about .65 - but I documented holes in tissue of 1 1/4''
Unlike the doctors who "can't tell a difference" I took a pic. ;)
A quarter is .95
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If a gun isn't functioning after doing 1600fps, I wouldn't call the 357 "capable" of 1600fps as a real world option?

The use of hunting is irrelevant until you prove 9mm isn't capable of doing what it's intended to do. More is deeper or bigger assumes a standard isn't possible.

For that matter, Buffalo Bore talks about 9mm being a bear round on his website.

FMJ from 380-45 all fall within the variation between brands. 19-32" in gel. A 380 can go deeper in gel than a 45. Heck, HST 380 went 30" in the Lucky Gunner lab.

True story, I think Federal DEEP 380 is going to be a big deal on bridging the 380-9mm gap where it performs only less than 9mm HST/Gold Dot for expansion and only less than 9mm XTP, Golden Saber/HPR, HST/Gold Dot for penetration. We shall see. But that hybrid copper front and spire point Hydra Shok look to do the job.
 
In my state we need a 5.5" barrel (measured from the breach). For many years I used a .45 LC Ruger Blackhawk (5.5" barrel which is far long enough to be legal), which handloaded can be a whole other story but....

9mm is in the arguing range of .38 special and that's very questionable for responsibly hunting deer.

.45 acp is in the arguing range of .45 LC ... say 225 grain jhp going in the 850 fps range and while that's a bit light I am sure it's also in the range of the .44-40.
 
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A soft lead bullet (45 Colt) is notable in it's ability to deform upon hitting bone, making it a bit larger.
Interesting...never heard that argument applied to the .45 Colt before. hmmm

I have head it used as to why the .38 Special is superior to the 9mm Luger. IT was actually true, once, back when your only ammo choices were .38 LRN vs. 9mm FMJ. Today? not so much...

and, fyi, the "proven round" the .45acp was spec'd to duplicate wasn't the .45Colt, it was the .45 S&W, commonly known as the .45 Schoefield, which used a lighter bullet and powder charge (in a shorter case) than the .45 Colt.
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44amp,

I did address hollow points in post 30. Of course I am speaking both historically AND currently, historically ANY lead Non-Jacketed bullet with sufficient power will often expand / deform after hitting bone...LRN, Semi-Wadcuttersfolks are popular in places where Hollow Points are restricted...like NJ. ( I do not, nor ever with to live in NJ, Nor have I ever, no offense to those stuck there)

https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-hollowpoint.shtml

I do think the pictures posted by CDW4ME of expanded .45 and 9mm, really do tell the story of a perfectly expanded HP bullet, from gelatin no doubt, I am not against hollow points in 9mm on up.

I was not aware that the .45 ACP was developed from the schofield, if that is the case. From my cursory understanding , Colt SAA's were re-issued to some troops in the Morro "Rebellion" as they fared better than Jacketed .38. Eventually the army concluded they needed a 45 caliber or larger handgun.

IN any case I just found this link, pretty good for history, but I disagree that Thompson / LaGarde LIED, in fact I agree with the reasonable conclusions:

“…soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire” because most of the human body offered “no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit.”

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm

So here we come full circle. No matter 9mm or .45, they are NOT hand cannons.
 
in order for the 9mm to START to get past the 45 acp, you need to start loading the 9mm to .357 magnum levels.

use a MODERN made factory load, any load, of 45 acp in an original 1941 production 1911. it works FINE.

use a modern 9mm load, almost all of wich seem to be passed the original chamber pressure, in a handgun made in 1941. see what happens to that gun.l
 
I was not aware that the .45 ACP was developed from the schofield, if that is the case. From my cursory understanding , Colt SAA's were re-issued to some troops in the Morro "Rebellion" as they fared better than Jacketed .38. Eventually the army concluded they needed a 45 caliber or larger handgun.
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There are folks here who can give you chapter and verse on the development history, but in a nutshell, the basics are that when the Army went looking for more revolvers to supplement the .45 Colt SAA, they chose a Smith & Wesson top break single action. That gun's frame was not long enough to accept the .45 Colt round. S&W came up with a shorter case round in .45 caliber, which used a lighter bullet and powder charge than the Colt round.

The Army accepted it and both the gun and the round became known as the Schoefield, as he had designed an improved latch for the revolver. The .45 Schoefield round was able to be used in the .45 Colt chambers, and for some years the Army stocked both kinds of ammo, which is probably when the "Long, Colt" nickname came into use.

When the Army retired those guns they were replaced with the DA .38 caliber revolver, in .38 Long Colt caliber. THOSE were the guns that performed poorly during the Moro uprising, and caused the Army to reissue some Colt SAAs as an emergency stopgap measure.

The .38 Long Colt was loaded with lead bullets, not jacketed.

The failure of the .38 round to perform adequately is what "cemented" the Army's desire for a .45 caliber round. When they went looking at a semi auto as the next pistol, they knew they weren't going to get .45 Colt performance, but they COULD get a round that matched the known, proven performance of the .45 Schoefield, and they insisted on just that.

In fact they were so firm in that regard that the .45 round Browning first offered them, a 200gr @900fps was turned down. The Army wanted a 230gr @850fps (+/-), and that's what Browning made for them, becoming the .45ACP as we have known it since 1911.

Georg Luger also faced a similar situation, though in smaller diameter. He originally offered the German military his pistol in .30 caliber, but the German Army thought it was too small, so he redesigned the round to 9mm (being the biggest thing his gun would take) which was more acceptable, and after a few years of back and forth, the German Navy adopted it in 1906, while the German Army took until 1908 to adopt the gun and the 9mm Parabellum round.

in both cases, it wasn't exactly a matter of "the best that could be done" it was a matter of "what the customer wanted".
 
44 AMP said:
The Army accepted it and both the gun and the round became known as the Schoefield, as he had designed an improved latch for the revolver. The .45 Schoefield round was able to be used in the .45 Colt chambers, and for some years the Army stocked both kinds of ammo, which is probably when the "Long, Colt" nickname came into use.
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That's not the way I've heard it, and the ever-infallible Wikipedia agrees with me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt

While the Colt remained popular, the Smith & Wesson M1875 Army Schofield Revolver was approved as an alternate, which created a logistic problem for the Army. The S&W revolver used the .45 S&W Schofield, a shorter cartridge, which would also work in the Colt, however the Army's S&W Schofield revolvers could not chamber the longer .45 Colt,[5] so in 1874 Frankford Arsenal, then almost exclusive supplier of small arms ammunition to the U.S. Army, dropped production of the .45 Colt in favor of the .45 S&W round. This resolved the Army's ammunition logistic problems but there were still plenty of the longer Colt-length cartridges in circulation once production ceased.
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I like 9mm over 45 because I'd rather have the larger number of rounds and its generally cheaper to practice with. Also my most accurate 9mm consistently beats my most accurate 45.

But, here's the deal. Ammo is not always easy to come by. Best to have handguns in a variety of calibers so that if there is a run on 9mm ammo for example, then you can shoot your 40 or 45. Sounds dumb and basic, but this has worked for me.
 
there were still plenty of the longer Colt-length cartridges in circulation once production ceased.
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This is what I meant by "stocking both kinds of ammo". Both types were in the supply system for some time.
 
To add fuel to the fire so to speak, neither the 9mm or 45acp can hold a candle to a full power 10mm in a 6" or longer pistol barrel, however, even the 10mm can't hold a candle to the full power .357mag in a carbine length barrel either.
 
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