The real difference, .45acp vs 9mm

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1. I get where CW is coming from, but I sniff a lot of market positioning. Lots of folks use/buy pocket pistols, why not cater to them? His qualitative and logic case is plausible (if unprovable/jesuitical/talmudic), but falls apart when he gets quantitative with his meaningless baloneystats. Can do a similar cal for rifle bullets vs humans and tank cannons vs MBT. Still baloney.

2. Size _does_ matter, both in projectile and gun. Larger, heavier projectiles have lost some of their advantage as projectile tech improves, but it is still there. See "dimes vs quarters" above for merely one aspect. And a bigger gun can be of use vs an attacker:
a. More visible: bad guy more likely to see it and know he faces mortal peril. If he cant se it, he can be psyched out by it.
b. Easier to shoot well.
c. Easier to admin, both at home and in extemis.

3. Last, I tire of the whole "all handguns suck/are weak sauce" and "all handguns do is poke holes in targets." Both are hooey(1). Some projectiles do more than cut a caliber-sized hole. I value penetration over expansion, but greater surface are increases likelihood of injuring something vital during that penetration. And most projectiles will do some nasty damage if they hit bone and bust/splinter it. Not as much as a rifle bullet, shotgun slug, or buckshot, but plenty of folks still die after being shot, despite all our advances in trauma care.


Note(1): "Hooey" is a highly technical engineering term used by only the most operational of operating operators.
 
kell said:
The permanent "hole" will be almost the same for both. Velocity makes a big difference in the temporary cavity. More so than caliber. That's why .223 is so devastating. 3000fps vs 800fps (.45) vs 1200fps (9mm).
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The .223 still carries a .224 caliber projectile. What makes it devastating is that it tumbles upon impact. If it's moving fast enough, the tumbling causes it to fracture at the cannelure, resulting in multiple wound channels for a single round. It's not just velocity that accounts for the round's effectiveness.
 
.. but would be overpenetrative for SD against a human.
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I don't believe in "overpenetrative" rather the opposite.

A bullet that does NOT penetrate enough is worse than one that goes all the way through.

A bullet that goes completely through a person, the thick way can be counted on to reach (and penetrate) the vitals from any angle and through the most common "barriers" such as an arm...

Note the most important lesson from the FBI Miami shootout, the 9mm bullet, that met or exceeded all the then standard penetration requirements stopped just short of delivering an instantly incapacitating wound. The wound was fatal, and docs said had he been shot at the operating room door, his survival was unlikely, but that bad guy lived for another minute, and killed FBI agents durig that time.

FOR ME, a bullet that doesn't exit cannot be reliably counted on to reach the vitals in every possible situation.

And, no, I'm not concerned with bystanders. I'm not the police, who have considerations I don't.
 
how many down range innocents were shot by the 5.56mm/.223cal rounds fired in self defense by the kid in Kenosha when he was being assaulted on an open street full of people? the answer is none.
 
44 AMP said:
We call this "placement". And, it is the only factor entirely dependent on the person pulling the trigger. Directly after placement comes penetration. The bullet has to penetrate enough to reach and disrupt the vital area. Personally, I prefer a bullet with enough power to pass through the vital area.
I can't count on a bullet that stops short of the vitals to do the job I need done. I do count on one that goes all the way through the vitals.

A bullet doesn't have to expand in order to work. They need to go into/through the right place in order to work. ANY bullet that does that, works. Expanding bullets tend to work better, PROVIDED they penetrate enough while expanding.
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Bingo! A .32 placed just superior and lateral of the xyphoid process is far more effective than a .45 placed in the extreme lower left quadrant of the abdomen.
 
hold on a minute

I would certainly rather have a .32acp auto pistol than my bare hands in a deadly confrontation. Any gun better than no gun. But it is widely acknowledged that the baseline for defensive handgun cartridges is the .380/.38spl. Carrying a more "convenient, light" firearm, or worse, not carrying at all, is more of a gamble than I am willing to take with my survival and that of my loved ones. Too, many of the small pocket autos are notoriously hard to shoot at any type of distance, due to dinky sights and bad triggers. Most gunfights are up close and personal, possibly in contact, but how does one know what their gunfight will look like?

RE Cooper: Jeff Cooper's advocacy for the .45 acp and the 1911 is well know and admittedly overly enthusiastic on occasion. But to label his writings fiction and drivel seems a bit much.

RE .357/125 ballistics: Velocities on many ballistic tables for .357 are obtained with 4" VENTED test barrels these days not 8" barrels. I have vintage Rem and Win catalogs that clearly note that, and certainly there are others since. Additionally, there are many private sources doing gel/chrono tests these days that show .357/125 combo's from 4" revolvers reaching their published velocities of 1450 fps +/-. The .357 has become one of those cartridges that is now loaded to different levels. The Rem Golden Sabre 125gr shows 1225 fps in the catalog (4"vented) and the Win PDX 125 is about the same. Both are loaded down to reduce flash and recoil and put them in the "tailored for SD" category. But REAL 125 gr loads (not boutique loads either) will reach their published velocities (and then some) albeit with a lot of flash and bang. I'm betting that an all up .357/125 from an 8" S&W, or a 7-1/4" Blackhawk will reach 1550 fps or more, something a 9mm can not begin to approach, and offer heavy bullet loads up to 180 gr that the 9mm cannot match either. Put the fastest .357 loads against the fastest 9mm loads and the difference is clear. Add barrel length and the mag pulls away easily. Not drivel.
 
what exactly do they mean by a "vented" barrel? MagNa-Port or something?

In this case, what they mean is a barrel with a gap (they call a vent) to duplicate the barrel cylinder gap found in revolvers.

the "Vent gap" is in the same approximate place as a revolver, the rear end of the barrel not vents near the muzzle like Mag-Na-Port .

So,, a "vented" test barrel produces the same approximate velocity as firing the round in a revolver, without firing a round in a revolver, but using the factory test fixture.

I'm betting that an all up .357/125 from an 8" S&W, or a 7-1/4" Blackhawk will reach 1550 fps or more, something a 9mm can not begin to approach, and offer heavy bullet loads up to 180 gr that the 9mm cannot match either. Put the fastest .357 loads against the fastest 9mm loads and the difference is clear. Add barrel length and the mag pulls away easily. Not drivel.
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Don't bet. It's "or more.." :D

A "full house" 125gr .357 load WILL break 1600fps from a 6" (six inch) barrel. Or more...
However, that level load is too hot for SOME guns.

I've shot 125jhp that clocked 1620fps from a 6" S&W model 19. Cases had to be driven out of the cylinder, could not be extracted by hand.

Same ammo, fired from a 6" S&W Model 28. Clocked 1670fps. Normal hand extraction.

Same ammo fired from a Desert Eagle 6" (non-vented) barrel. Clocked 1720fps, normal positive function.

back to topic,

The "Real" difference between .45acp and 9mm Luger is that the 9mm has benefitted more from raised pressure limits and improved bullet technology than the .45acp.

The main reason this was possible was because of actual physical size and strength. Not the rounds, but the guns.

Look at current duty size pistols, there is simply more steel where the steel needs to be in a 9mm than there is in a .45. So, working pressure can be, and is, higher in the smaller round.

Want a truly fair comparison about the difference the bore size makes?? Run both rounds at the same pressure (in a gun that will take that)

What do you think you'll get if you run the .45 acp at 35,000 psi? You get a short case .45 Win Mag ..almost (win mag pressure max is 40,000)
But, in order to do that, you need a gun built to do that, not the standard 1911A1 made for the regular .45acp.

You absolutely can do it with a 1911a1 pattern gun, designed for that purpose. Which means a gun that is bigger and blockier (to some degree) than what most people want.

Other side of the coin, sort of, 9mm Luger.
1300fps+ loads today. Today's guns will take that. The original 9mm Parabellum pistol wasn't made to take that.

The 9mm Luger has had a lot of work done to "improve" it, particularly in the last half century. No where near that has been done to the .45acp.

Why do you think that might be??? :rolleyes:
 
There is nothing new that hasn't been known and documented since at least the end of WW-2. The myth of the superiority of 45 over 9mm is largely due to the fictional writings of Jeff Cooper. Too many people chose to believe his drivel rather than look at facts.
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Col. Cooper was a ol' codger that was hung up on ONE round, and ONE type of handgun, but what he did to train people on ALL types handguns ( gunsite) is not a small thing. He also gave the begrudging nod to Glock and a few others...but my memory as a youth reading "Guns and Blammo" always had me turn to those last pages the Col. was on...IT WAS ENTERTAINMENT, as well and some occasional important information.


As to 9 vs 45, for title king rematch XXXXVIIII.....

Both punch holes, both FMJ penetrate barriers ( but 9mm a little better).

45 ACP is the attempt to put the proven revolver round (45 Colt) into a more modern form, and in FMJ form it is the lesser of the two. A soft lead bullet (45 Colt) is notable in it's ability to deform upon hitting bone, making it a bit larger. 45 ACP saves weight, and is more compact...

9mm is even more compact, and gives you (often) more rounds, it's a trade off.

Suffice it to say 45 makes a slightly larger hole, but as most say, placement is everything. Hollow points are also a trade off, especially if you have barriers to punch through, but in most street situations, they make a good argument ( even bigger holes in both rounds).

Under normal circumstances, I feel sufficiently armed with a hot ( fiocci, S&B) 73gr .32 FMJ, let alone 9mm, or .45...

In short, carry what you feel comfortable to shoot. A lot depends on platform (gun) and shooter, less on caliber.
 
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A soft lead bullet (45 Colt) is notable in it's ability to deform upon hitting bone, making it a bit larger.
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Interesting...never heard that argument applied to the .45 Colt before. hmmm

I have head it used as to why the .38 Special is superior to the 9mm Luger. IT was actually true, once, back when your only ammo choices were .38 LRN vs. 9mm FMJ. Today? not so much...

and, fyi, the "proven round" the .45acp was spec'd to duplicate wasn't the .45Colt, it was the .45 S&W, commonly known as the .45 Schoefield, which used a lighter bullet and powder charge (in a shorter case) than the .45 Colt.
 
44 AMP said:
I don't believe in "overpenetrative" rather the opposite.

A bullet that does NOT penetrate enough is worse than one that goes all the way through.

A bullet that goes completely through a person, the thick way can be counted on to reach (and penetrate) the vitals from any angle and through the most common "barriers" such as an arm...

Note the most important lesson from the FBI Miami shootout, the 9mm bullet, that met or exceeded all the then standard penetration requirements stopped just short of delivering an instantly incapacitating wound. The wound was fatal, and docs said had he been shot at the operating room door, his survival was unlikely, but that bad guy lived for another minute, and killed FBI agents durig that time.

FOR ME, a bullet that doesn't exit cannot be reliably counted on to reach the vitals in every possible situation.

And, no, I'm not concerned with bystanders. I'm not the police, who have considerations I don't.
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For me, the PPU FPJ (FMJ) is practice ammo, I consider 30+ inches overpenetrative for SD against a human.
I'll not carry FMJ when I have HP available.
That includes 45 FMJ - I'd much prefer a 230 HST or Ranger T.

Glock 35 with 357 Sig Barrel
125 Gold Dot @ 1,399 fps / 543# KE
125 HST @ 1,415 fps / 556# KE
125 Ranger T @ 1,428 fps / 566# KE
125 PPU FPJ @ 1,461 fps / 593# KE

index.php
 
Yes, labeling Jeff Cooper's writings as "fiction and drivel", like dismissing Charlie Askins' writings as the work of a psycho. Cooper's ideas came from experience, no doubt as a Marine in the South Pacific and Korea he was limited to what was issued.
Bill Jordan quoted an unknown gunfighter as saying "Speed's fine but accuracy's final."
In my Army days 1967-1971 marksmanship and weapons training wasn't bothered with outside of BCT. Knew very gun guys then.
Nowadays there are the complications caused by drug use.
Then there's the ongoing "double tap vs. one shot stop" debate.
 
45ACP is a Big Block Motor. 9mm is a Small Block Motor sometimes equipped with a supercharger.

Depending on the loading, 45ACP almost always has more momentum and sometimes 9mm has the same muzzle energy.
 
IZZY said:
Col. Cooper was a ol' codger that was hung up on ONE round, and ONE type of handgun, but what he did to train people on ALL types handguns ( gunsite) is not a small thing. He also gave the begrudging nod to Glock and a few others...but my memory as a youth reading "Guns and Blammo" always had me turn to those last pages the Col. was on...IT WAS ENTERTAINMENT, as well and some occasional important information.
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This is the crux of this argument. Most of the people on this site are younger and don't understand that old doesn't mean useless, it means experienced. It's not a criticism, it'd an observation.

I was a 20 something in the 60's and I didn't listen either. No one does when they're young. We all thought that, "they are old and times are different. They don't understand what's what these days." I repeat, no young person listens to experience, no one. Getting some years behind you and some experience gives you a perspective.

That perspective gives you the ability to see and understand. It gives you the ability to realize that experience is valuable, not a waste. That understanding today without an understanding of yesterday is really not understanding anything, it's a false sense of understanding.

In short, it's having your head up your a&% and failing to realize it. It's part of growing up and growing wise. But don't fear it, we all went through it and came out the other side humbled with a better understanding of ourselves.

And you know what? Every 20 something is dead wrong. We all were, yes we were, and those today all are too. Experience can only be appreciated by those with . . . . . . wait for it . . . . experience.
 
Personally I think that "bullet size in relation to torso" ratio is more important when it comes to throwing human torsos at fixed bullets...

It's easier to hit a bigger target.
 
While I enjoy watching some of the Lucky Gunner videos, he often strays into "opinion as fact" territory. I feel most of his videos should be watched primarily for entertainment value and all advice taken with a grain of salt.

A key line in that video is:

"Claude has built a reputation in the firearms training community for challenging convention wisdom. And one of the topics he is best known for is using small caliber handguns for personal protection."​

So you have Claude, an expert who is a known contrarian on a personal mission to push an unpopular opinion. You know how those toothpaste commercials always say "9 out of 10 dentists recommend..."? Well, this guy is the 10th dentist. Does that automatically mean he's wrong? No. But it does mean that he's arguing against the vast majority of expertise and experience on the topic.

Add to that a "reputation for challenging conventional wisdom" and you have a formula for a guy who keeps himself in the conversation by simply disagreeing with the majority opinion, rather than providing the needed proof to change that opinion. Cooking up cockamamie comparisons to justify your contrarian opinion doesn't make for sage advice. (The "bullet diameter to torso size ratio" argument is one of the stupidest pieces of nonsense I've ever seen.) It just makes you an argumentative jerk.

The whole video is pretty much nonsensical drivel. He quotes a whole much of "conventional wisdom" (most of which he regularly touts within his own videos) with a smirk on his face and essentially says that none of it matters. Pretty disingenuous for a guys who makes money off a vlog based on that conventional wisdom.

Claude's dismissive view of "civilian" self defense is dangerous. He seems to think that civilian defense situations are so beneath the needs of military and law enforcement that the whole situation is worth laughing at (which he does several times in the video). Claude is literally espousing of philosophy of "prepare for the best and believe that the worst will never happen" rather than "prepare for the worst and hope for the best."

"If we shoot someone with a .32 and he runs off, is that a success? Yes."
"Ultimately, we're poking holes in people with a handgun. It's a handgun."
"In most cases one or two shots will take care of it."
"The fact of the matter is... they're all pathetic pop guns."​

He says to first prepare to deal with the one guy you can stop with one or two shots, then you can move on to the "outliers." Again, the dangerous advice that we should expect most confrontations to be easily dealt with and therefore lightly arm ourselves accordingly.

Don't prepare for a "sentinel event", because that's less likely to happen. (Even though preparing for that type of event will also leave you prepared for
lesser events.) Just prepare for the lightest and easiest to handle situation, then worry about more difficult situations later, all the while trusting that such situations will kindly wait for you to get around to your preparations before they happen.

Yeah, great advice.
 
What is becoming clear to me is that many people don't hunt deer with handguns.

If you are going hunting for a white tailed deer and we only have a .45acp and a 9mm, who do you think is bringing home meat and who is out in the dark tracking a blood trail?

I believe in science and statistics, but you need to know what you are measuring.
 
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