The photos of Dr. Paul and Don Black...

[JaserST4]

If someone stomped my child like that or shot one of my relatives just for fun, I'd probably become a suicide bomber, too.

Your blame Israel first crap is getting old but this reveals your underlying problem. There is nothing that would make me or any reasonable human into a murdering terrorist suicide bomber.

 

[nate45]

blame Israel first crap is getting old

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? Answer: Israel.

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)? Answer: Israel.

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated? Answer: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated? Answer: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an Americandiplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union? Answer: Israel.

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon? Answer: Israel.

Q. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody? Answer: Israel

Q. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque. Answer: Israel

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders? Answer: Israel.

Q. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children? Answer: Israel

Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes? Answer: Israel.

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world? Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.? Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children onwhy they have no right to reduce foreign aid? Answer: Israel

Q. What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing. Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children? Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks? Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing? Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children? Answer: Israel

Q.. Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes? Answer: Israel

Q: What country in the Middle East is the United States threatening to attack because of fear that it may be a threat to us and to our allies? Answer: Iran

By James J. David Retired Brigadier General
James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.

 

[JaserST4]

BS. Why do so many nuts support Ron Paul, coincidence? I think not. The UN created Israel. Israel was attacked and won the war. Most Palestinians came from Jorden, the land was largely unoccupied, some was bought. Why doesn't the US give Texas, California and New Mexico back to Mexico if that's
the view. Yes, the US supports Israel, their nuclear program, and for good reason. Why is an democratic ally bad to RP supporters anyway? Drink the KoolAid and pass the propaganda!

 

[SteelCore]

Sorry, but I have to respond to this:

Your blame Israel first crap is getting old...

I blame Israel first for the atrocities Israel commits, and I blame the Arabs first for the atrocities they commit. There are plenty of examples on both sides, though you probably believe that Israel is above criticism. I happen to believe that the same moral standards apply to everyone, regardless of ethnicity or country.

...but this reveals your underlying problem. There is nothing that would make me or any reasonable human into a murdering terrorist suicide bomber.

What problem is that? That I'd be furious if the soldier of an occupying army stomped my four-year-old child's guts out, or shot one of my family members for no reason?

What would YOU do if it were YOUR child?

I certainly wouldn't take revenge on innocent, random Israel civilians -- many of them deplore this sort of thing -- but I'd sure as hell go after some occupying soldiers. And that would NOT be terrorism, which is the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians.

I'm not going to respond anymore about this topic, since it's derailing the thread again. People who want to know the truth about these matters can do their own research. I suggest Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International to start. They present an unbiased account of abuses committed by both sides. My bottom line is that I don't want to see the US supporting the abuse of anyone by anyone. If that makes me a "self-hating Jew," then so be it.

 

[Manedwolf]

Babble babble babble. Israel bad aaargh.

SOME of us stand WITH our allies, rather than with the people who would just as soon behead us for being infidels.

I've worn one of these tshirts to go to the range a few times, and always get a thumbs-up and grin. I've got family friends over there, too, one of whom is serving. That's who I got it from.

Talk to someone who has had to deal with rocket attacks incoming all the time, who has had to clean up after a suicide bomber blows themselves up in a cafe. When they've had to pick up pieces of children.

They're fighting the good fight against some absolute animals. And if you don't want to support them, that's up to you. But you're choosing the wrong side, the side that'd stab you in the back and cut off your head with a dull machete. Whatever.

 

[nate45]

But you're choosing the wrong side,

Thats where you are very much mistaken.

I didn't choose a side I'm not on either one. Why should I be?

You should move to Israel and join the IDF, be sure to write in and let us know how that works out.

 

[nate45]

Ya RP is the racist

They're fighting the good fight against some absolute animals.

Oh I see Arabs are not even human beings.(why does that sound familiar?)

Its ok to kill, torture, and virtualy enslave them.

Israel is an Apartheid State.

Oh thats not racist at all

 

[JaserST4]

I blame Israel first for the atrocities Israel commits, and I blame the Arabs first for the atrocities they commit. There are plenty of examples on both sides, though you probably believe that Israel is above criticism. I happen to believe that the same moral standards apply to everyone, regardless of ethnicity or country.

I wouldn't believe a thing your George Soros funded propaganda outlets say. You must be kidding! Bad examples happen in every conflict, even by some US soldiers. But it's propaganda when we present them as the norm or acceptable to anyone except those who encourage it.

Most of the false charges are addressed here:
http://www.afsi.org/arablies.htm


Nate: Manedwolf can speak for himself but I do believe if you read in context, he was talking about the terrorists. Good grief.

 

[Manedwolf]

Nate, keep drinking that kool-aid and being wild-eyed.

"Animals" referred to "terrorists". Say it with me now, slowly. Terrrrr...orrr....iiiiissssttss.
As in "people who blow themselves up in cafes", "people who saw the heads off hostages" and that sort.

Got it? Failed attempt at a strawman using words that weren't there.

 

[nate45]

We aren't advocates for the Arabs.

Your telling us Arabs and Islamic radicals do dispicable things, we are agreeing with you.

We then tell you that Israel does outrageous and dispicable things.

You deny it and repeat pro Israel propaganda. Whos drinking the KoolAid?

Can't you see the disconnect.

All your lives the T.V. has told you Israel was the hapless, innocent victim, sorry, but thats just not the case.

 

[Pat H]

The Likudist government in Israel is an ally, of sorts, with the US government. The state of Israel is a rogue, terrorist state and is not an ally of America or Americans.

There is no mutual defense treaty with Israel and never has been.

All aid to Israel must stop, enforcement of UN resolutions against Israel, one of the worst offenders of international sovereignty, should begin forthwith as long as the US government remains a part of the UN.

Morally speaking, those running the Israeli government today are no better than Hamas or Hezbollah.

 

[SteelCore]

I wouldn't believe a thing your George Soros funded propaganda outlets say. You must be kidding! Bad examples happen in every conflict, even by some US soldiers. But it's propaganda when we present them as the norm or acceptable to anyone except those who encourage it.

Most of the false charges are addressed here:
http://www.afsi.org/arablies.htm

Oh, now there's an unbiased source.

Face it: there are even plenty of Israeli and Jewish organizations that decry the Israeli occupation and its brutality. Here's one example:

http://www.btselem.org/English/

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are two other good organizations for unbiased info. I also gave you the link above to the Tikkun site. You can search for others.

Now, do you think this is some giant conspiracy against Israel by Israelis and Jews? Or is it just that not all Jews feel that Jewish life is worth more than the lives of other human beings?

Yes, I know that Jews suffered greatly during WWII. My own family members were in those camps. The Holocaust was a horrible thing. But that does NOT give us the right to do whatever we want to other people.

 

[SDC]

The Arabs are never going to accept anything less than the total destruction of Israel, and they've said it often enough that you must be deaf if you haven't heard it. As far as I can see, the Israelis would be happy to let the Palestinians live their lives in peace (as long as that favour is returned), and they stop making territorial claims and launching rockets, suicide bombers, and running smuggling operations. That right there tells me that the only true ally the West has in the middle East is Israel. Yes, they will look out for their own interests FIRST, in exactly the same way that the US looks out for its own interests FIRST, but why would you expect anything less?

 

[Manedwolf]

The state of Israel is a rogue, terrorist state and is not an ally of America or Americans.

Morally speaking, those running the Israeli government today are no better than Hamas or Hezbollah.

Shark has officially been jumped.

 

[SteelCore]

The Arabs are never going to accept anything less than the total destruction of Israel, and they've said it often enough that you must be deaf if you haven't heard it.

Some Arabs have said that. Others simply want to live their lives in peace, just as so many Israelis do.

But come on, tell the truth: Wouldn't you be angry enough to fight back if you lived under an occupation that did this sort of thing to you and your loved ones:

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=22525

As far as I can see, the Israelis would be happy to let the Palestinians live their lives in peace (as long as that favour is returned), and they stop making territorial claims and launching rockets, suicide bombers, and running smuggling operations.

This is a very one-sided view. There are extremists on both sides who don't want peace. For example, Israel continues to expand its illegal settlements (with US tax dollars), although that is a known obstacle to the peace process.

Basically, the cycle of violence appears to be like this:

(1) Arab extremists attack Israel with their homemade rockets or whatever.
(2) Israel responds with (illegal) collective punishment against huge segments of the Arab population, punishing more innocent people than guilty.
(3) This further enrages the Arabs and aids in the recruitment of militants.
(4) Back to step (1).

That right there tells me that the only true ally the West has in the middle East is Israel.

They do nothing for the US except spy on us and take our money. Israeli loyalists played a central role in fabricating the intelligence that was responsible for taking the US to war in Iraq. I already posted the links, and they're a good starting point for anyone who wants to do further research and put the pieces together for himself. There is no question in my mind that the US was invaded for Israel's benefit.

Yes, they will look out for their own interests FIRST, in exactly the same way that the US looks out for its own interests FIRST, but why would you expect anything less?

Yes, Israel looks out for its own interests first. The problem is that the US looks out for Israel's interests first, also.

How else do you explain the fact that we invaded Iraq when there was no WMD threat? And how about the fact that the US government continues to cover up the facts of the USS Liberty attack to this day? Our sailors who survived the attack are certain that it was deliberate, and I believe them:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

The US government serves Israel's interests FIRST. I consider myself an American first regardless of my ethnic background, and this is unacceptable to me. This country liberated my relatives in WWII and gave them a home, and it's intolerable for me to see it taken advantage of in this manner.

 

[JaserST4]

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are two other good organizations for unbiased info. I also gave you the link above to the Tikkun site. You can search for others.

I did. He went through the history, which part was false exactly? I also pointed out that George Soros funded groups are hardly unbiased. Repeating them won't make them more credible. Which side will I believe? It isn't the one that sides with Islamic militants.

 

[nate45]

We aren't advocates for the Arabs.

Your telling us Arabs and Islamic radicals do dispicable things, we are agreeing with you.

We then tell you that Israel does outrageous and dispicable things.

You deny it and repeat pro Israel propaganda. Whos drinking the KoolAid?

Can't you see the disconnect.

All your lives the T.V. has told you Israel was the hapless, innocent victim, sorry, but thats just not the case.

Right on Nate you tell em!

 

[SDC]

Quote:
The Arabs are never going to accept anything less than the total destruction of Israel, and they've said it often enough that you must be deaf if you haven't heard it.

Some Arabs have said that. Others simply want to live their lives in peace, just as so many Israelis do.

The people IN POWER, the ones that would actually have the ability to do these things, have made it clear that their position is the complete annihilation of Israel, and they will continue to do whatever they can, including suicide attacks, random rockets, and car bombs to achieve that end. How long would the US be willing to "put up with it", if Canada or Mexico was doing the same thing? My guess is, no longer than a phone call to SAC.

But come on, tell the truth: Wouldn't you be angry enough to fight back if you lived under an occupation that did this sort of thing to you and your loved ones:

I probably would, but the Palestinians have FAR from clean hands in this matter, and they play the media like a violin, to the point of planting bogus "victims" wherever they think they'll get a good photo op. Further than that, they can't even agree among THEMSELVES how to settle things, and the Hamas/Fattah ethnic cleansing they went through a few weeks ago proves it. I wouldn't want these fanatics in charge of a community association, let along an entire country, and if the Palestinians want their own country, they're going to have to get their **** together to the point where bloodthirsty lunatics and con artists aren't in charge anymore.

Quote:
As far as I can see, the Israelis would be happy to let the Palestinians live their lives in peace (as long as that favour is returned), and they stop making territorial claims and launching rockets, suicide bombers, and running smuggling operations.

This is a very one-sided view. There are extremists on both sides who don't want peace. For example, Israel continues to expand its illegal settlements (with US tax dollars), although that is a known obstacle to the peace process.

However, I HAVE seen Israel remove Jewish settlements by force, where necessary; on the opposing side, we haven't seen one iota of movement by anyone to arrest or capture the people responsible for these attacks (in fact, they hold PARADES to "honor" them), or to stop or prevent them in any way. That may have something to do with the fact that the Palestinians elected the very people that are launching these attacks to their "government".

Quote:
That right there tells me that the only true ally the West has in the middle East is Israel.

They do nothing for the US except spy on us and take our money. Israeli loyalists played a central role in fabricating the intelligence that was responsible for taking the US to war in Iraq. I already posted the links, and they're a good starting point for anyone who wants to do further research and put the pieces together for himself. There is no question in my mind that the US was invaded for Israel's benefit.

If Bush was gullible enough to believe everything that he's told, that's HIS fault; you know as well as I do that Hussein would have given one of his testicles and both of yours to get his hands on a nuke, and his past actions against Iran showed that neither side had any compunction about using anything they could get their hands on (both having used WMDs several times). I happen to think that it's a GOOD thing that Israel shares info with the US, so the US has a better idea of what's going on in the area. If Israel hadn't taken out Hussein's Osirak reactor, they WOULD have had a bomb by now, and something similar is going to have to be done with Iran before too long. Syria recently tried the same thing, and the only reason they don't have an operating reactor right now is because Israel took the site out. It doesn't bother me that Israel has the bomb, because I know that they won't use it except as a last resort. If anyone of the other yahoos in that area gets their hands on a nuke, however, you know as well as I do that the first thing they're going to do with it is to set it off in Tel Aviv.

Quote:
Yes, they will look out for their own interests FIRST, in exactly the same way that the US looks out for its own interests FIRST, but why would you expect anything less?

Yes, Israel looks out for its own interests first. The problem is that the US looks out for Israel's interests first, also.

In many instances, I'd suggest that Israel and the US SHARE interests (ie. they don't want Muslim extremists getting WMDs, or carrying out terror operations, or acting as money-launderers, or ripping off aid that is MEANT for civilians, but goes to buy weapons from Iran, etc., etc.) Preventing these things is in BOTH countries' interests.

How else do you explain the fact that we invaded Iraq when there was no WMD threat? And how about the fact that the US government continues to cover up the facts of the USS Liberty attack to this day? Our sailors who survived the attack are certain that it was deliberate, and I believe them

Based on what was known prior to the invasion, it was likely that Iraq both HAD and was ready to USE WMDs, and it seems to have only been good fortune that they had either dropped the program or managed to destroy and hide most of it. As for the Liberty, blue on blue attacks are nothing new in warfare, and the identification technology in 1967 was nowhere NEAR what it is today. The US claimed it had no ships in the area until after the attack, and expecting Israel to ignore a ship conducting surveillance on them when they were at war is no more realistic than expecting the US to look the other way if they found an unidentified ship sailing off of Oahu on Dec. 8, 1941.

 

[Fremmer]

Is this the same Don Black and Stromfront outfit that recently contributed money to Ron Paul's campaign?

And Ron Paul's campaign kept the contribution, correct?

 

[SteelCore]

Based on what was known prior to the invasion, it was likely that Iraq both HAD and was ready to USE WMDs, and it seems to have only been good fortune that they had either dropped the program or managed to destroy and hide most of it.

You obviously haven't read the links I posted on the subject.

There were NO WMDs. I knew this even before the invasion, since it was clear what the Bush agenda was. The intelligence was clearly manipulated, and a massive propaganda effort was unleashed on the American public, which fell for it. Powell's presentation to the UN was ridiculous, as were all the claims that led up to it. Each time a claim was debunked -- aluminum tubes, then Nigerian uranium, etc. -- the Bush administration would just move on to the next claim without missing a step. Also, what about the Downing Street memo?

They wanted a war on Iraq, and they were looking for any excuse to get one.

As for the Liberty, blue on blue attacks are nothing new in warfare, and the identification technology in 1967 was nowhere NEAR what it is today. The US claimed it had no ships in the area until after the attack, and expecting Israel to ignore a ship conducting surveillance on them when they were at war is no more realistic than expecting the US to look the other way if they found an unidentified ship sailing off of Oahu on Dec. 8, 1941.

There is no question that it was a deliberate attack. Go to the link I provided (if your doubts are sincere) and read all the details. The claim that the Israelis didn't know it was an American ship is preposterous.

Is this the same Don Black and Stromfront outfit that recently contributed money to Ron Paul's campaign?

And Ron Paul's campaign kept the contribution, correct?

I believe he kept the contribution but repudiated the views of Stormfront et al. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.