The Perils of Scalia

We shall see how it plays out, won't we?

As I said, the behavioral consequences are the game and not the rhetoric of Scalia's genius prose.

I'm waiting - glad you are so optimistic.

BTW, if the Heller case didn't deal with schools, why did the wiley old bird lay such a rotten egg on schools?

Since, I work in such - I don't think he helped me. Your sesquipedalian exposition is not the current reality on the ground. I'm glad you feel SAFE.
 
Thanks Charles, and welcome. I much prefer your brand of optimism to the sharpening of pitchforks, an increasingly tempting alternative.
 
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I believe that issues such as school carry are going to be a state issue, the current congress is not going to repeal the school carry laws and the supreme court is not going to find any restriction on school carry unconstitutional. Some states do allow school carry and we can hope the same trends that first expanded the number of shall issue states shall also lead to more school carry states and more non-permit conceal carry states. VA has tried the last two sessions to get non-permit conceal carry, so far nothing has passed and previous attempts at college carry have also failed, but as long as we continue to try we have hope.
 
While the question of what constitutes a sensitive place is potentially colored by Scalia's remarks about schools, GFSZ's (gun free school zones) are even more broadly prohibitive of the exercise of the right than bans on actual school property. In many urban areas it is impossible to traverse a region without running afoul of a GFSZ.
 
Scalia is NOT our friend. Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say our rights are limited to reasonable restrictions?

I live in NY and I woke up on 1/16/2013 and my gun rights were gone. 95% of all handguns are outlawed, AW ban, gun registration, ammo purchase background check......ammo purchases reported to local police and on and on and on....

Sure some of this garbage will be stopped by the courts but that will take at least 5-10 years.
 
rajbcpa said:
Scalia is NOT our friend. Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say our rights are limited to reasonable restrictions?...
No, it's not about friendship. And there is ample judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government.

rajbcpa said:
...Sure some of this garbage will be stopped by the courts but that will take at least 5-10 years.
And of course we wind up with draconian laws because the body politic supports politicians who enact such laws. One reason is that a lot of people, people who vote, are afraid of guns and of people who have guns. That may be more emotion based than evidence based, but it's still how things are.

So that raises the whole issue of what we, each of us, is doing to help change attitudes by being good ambassadors for gun owners and gun ownership -- dispelling the negative stereotypes many members of the public have.

That's another dimension of advocating for the RKBA. But it's beyond the scope of this thread.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
We shall see how it plays out, won't we?

As I said, the behavioral consequences are the game and not the rhetoric of Scalia's genius prose.

I'm waiting - glad you are so optimistic.

BTW, if the Heller case didn't deal with schools, why did the wiley old bird lay such a rotten egg on schools?

Since, I work in such - I don't think he helped me. Your sesquipedalian exposition is not the current reality on the ground. I'm glad you feel SAFE.

Safe is a relative term. Both life, itself, and freedom are full of risk of every size and shape, both imaginable and unimaginable. I could trip and break my neck, just walking down my front steps, or a meteor could crash through the atmosphere and annihilate me.

I don't consider myself an optimist, nor a pessimist. I tend to see myself as more of a realist. There are much better examples of optimists around here than myself. Take the following fellow, for example:

Glenn E. Meyer said:
My comment was to point out the fallacy of the doom and gloom hysteria of many. If it is not an absolute win, I'm moving to mountains and living off the land.

If you want to be that way - good for you.

The depressive gun nut never sees progress.

The Shall-Issue permit was a step back as we didn't need them because of a pure view of the 2nd - thus having the permits is a step back - blah, blah.

If African-Americans had the same view after Brown vs. the Board of Education - they would have given up on regaining the civil rights that they should have had.

Thus, let me abandon sarcasm and say, MVPEL, that you can stew in defeatish juices because the world isn't perfect yet or you can take a realistic look at changing your cognitive set and realize Heller is a good thing. Changing New York will take time. When I moved to TX, we didn't have a shall issue law - guess what we changed that even though the Absolutist GOA local branch was against it.

If you may recall, after Brown, it took Federal Troops and much time to change the racist polices of the South.

Then horrors - folks want the Supreme Court to overturn Heller. That's politics, friends. Roe. v. Wade - the SCOTUS must overturn that - a mantra of the right. So what - folks have argued that even a more conservative court won't overturn a precedent of many years. So if Heller exists for a bit and more suits - as in Chicago and SF - strengthen this view of the 2nd. - that will be a good thing.

So live on mountain and wait for the UN armored vehicles and the heliocopters. Or get real.

SOURCE: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2926115&postcount=44
Date: July 3rd, 2008
 
rajbcpa said:
Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say our rights are limited to reasonable restrictions?

No where in the Second Amendment does it say that our rights are limited to reasonable restrictions. Conversely, where does the Second Amendment say that they are not? Again, it doesn't. It doesn't say that the right to keep and bear arms is either limited or unlimited. But, the same thing could be said about what the Constitution says about many rights.

The Constitution (as well as its amendments) enjoy the status of supreme law of the land. But, that said, they are not the only things that hold that status. But, if a statute and a constitutional provision conflicts, the Constitution takes precedence.

The Constitution serves as the foundation of our nation's legal system. The sovereign of our nation is We, the People. The Constitution, though supreme law of the land, is not superior to the sovereign, itself. Thus, the Constitution that is supreme law of the land can be amended (or even repealed, if desired), as long as the process laid out by the sovereign is followed.

The sovereign reposed the judicial power in our judiciary. The judicial power could be reclaimed, certainly, but until such time as that occurs, it remains where it was reposed.

Our system of law is not handicapped by being limited to just and only the Constitution. Over the course of a couple of hundreds years or more, a great body of law has come into existence - American law, if you will.

Interpretation of the law - and of the Constitution - is common to many nations. It is a typical function of judiciaries.

Back in 1803, there was a case called Marbury v. Madison, and one of the things said in that Supreme Court opinion handed down was the following:

It is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is.

SOURCE: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0005_0137_ZO.html
Marbury v. Madison
Date: 1803


So, with the passage of time, the judiciary has repeatedly interpreted the law. One by product of this is that even fundamental rights, rights that are constitutionally protected, have been interpreted by those in whom the judicial power has been entrusted to mean that they are subject to regulation. We have a constitutional republic, a compound republic, in fact, and we also have a constitutional system of ordered liberty. Not a constitutional system of absolute liberty, but again, one of ordered liberty.
 
rajbcpa said:
Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say our rights are limited to reasonable restrictions?

If I may elaborate a bit further.

The right in question to which the Second Amendment refers, namely, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, is not a right that has its origin in the Second Amendment. Rather, it is properly termed a preexisting right - for the very simple reason that it preexisted the Constitution, itself.

As such, the Second Amendment did not alter the core right in question, effectively changing it into a right that was absolute in nature. Granted and true, the Second Amendment commands that the right in question shall not be infringed - and as I pointed out, previously in this thread, shall is indicative of a word of command.

However, that shall is a command, what is to not be infringed is a preexisting right, not an absolute right. Preexisting and absolute are not one and the same thing. The command, itself, the shall not be infringed part, certainly rings with the authority of absoluteness, doesn't it? That's because that's exactly what it is supposed to do. That's the nature of a command, rather than something that is discretionary.

The fact that shall can be properly construed to be absolute in nature can be accomplished without the right to which it refers becoming imbued with the nature of an absolute right.

Does that help?
 
No, it's not about friendship. And there is ample judicial authority going back well before Heller and McDonald for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights are subject to limited regulation by government.

I cannot factually disagree but I do not believe this was the original intent. I believe the original intent was that these rights were not up for negotiation nor any sort of extensive regulation. Of course we are so far past those days and Idea I cannot see a way back to this for us as a nation.

The one thing I can say with certainty is we as a nation will (and do)all pay a heavy toll for government regulations on our freedom.
 
Heller as the wonderful solution:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/politics/supreme-court-declines-gun-law-case.html?_r=0

Also, my past optimistic view was evidence based at the time. That is a simple point. I wish I was wrong.

I currently see that I was perhaps incorrect. I thought that Obama would talk the ban talk but do nothing for political reasons. But I was wrong. He went full press on the issue. I thought that progun Democrats and most progun Republicans would hold the line (Toomey, Manchin - hey, being touted for President!). We will see about the House. Also, my optimism was based on the history of desegregation. In that case, the Federal government took Brown as a case to move against states. That certainly isn't the case here.

If you understand that analyses change based on evidence, you might move beyond rhetoric.

I'm not seeing Heller or Mc as a magic wand. I'd bet that the only thing it will protect is the right to have a double barrel - with appropriate registration - when the dust settles. Rights to handguns and EBRs will be iffy. State laws like the SAFE act will limit access to those and will the SCOTUS overturn. Place you bets on the wiley old bird. Note the NYTimes article does discuss the holes I pointed out as legitimizing such laws.

See what happens for other cases - Posner's decision? That will tell the tale rather than old wily bird praise.
 
Huh? Moore is the best carry case we could ask for at the USSC.
IF it is upheld. If not then the opposite would be true. At least now, it's already been decided in our favor. Left alone, it stands for carry, if only in its own circuit. Since SCOTUS has declined to overturn Kalchalsky and if it declines to uphold the Judge Leggs's ruling in Woollard, what might that mean for Moore? I suppose it depends on the reason the court denies cert. It's looking like a 50/50 proposition that the court will hand us carry outside the home. And I can't believe I am even saying it.

I suppose it's possible that they see Moore as a better vehicle to uphold carry outside the home. Perhaps it gives them more latitude to rule. I pray to God it's so.
 
I suppose it depends on the reason the court denies cert.
They don't disclose their reasons for granting or denying cert. It could be that they're waiting to see how Woollard and Moore hash out. It could also be that they consider one of those cases to be a better vehicle than Kachalsky.

At the moment, all we can do is speculate.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Heller as the wonderful solution:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us...case.html?_r=0

Also, my past optimistic view was evidence based at the time. That is a simple point. I wish I was wrong.

Well, what is it that you thought that the Heller case might be a wonderful solution for? School carry? It wasn't at issue in the case, so common sense dictates that the Court wasn't going to rule on it. Courts tend to rule narrowly, and particularly when constitutional issues are under consideration.

As far as this "evidence" that you refer to, how many right to keep and bear arms cases has the United States Supreme Court handed down opinions on, in the time since the Heller case was decided several years ago?

I know that there was the McDonald case, where the Court then utilized incorporated the right recognized in Heller. Again, school carry wasn't at issue, so it wasn't going to be resolved in a case where it's not even at issue.

My view on the Heller case is not that it is a wonderful solution to all attempts at gun control, but rather, that it was a positive development.

Since one legislature cannot bind the hands of a future legislature, future attempts to impose gun control will continue to be possible, no matter what the judiciary rules.

Glenn E. Meyer said:
I currently see that I was perhaps incorrect. I thought that Obama would talk the ban talk but do nothing for political reasons. But I was wrong. He went full press on the issue. I thought that progun Democrats and most progun Republicans would hold the line (Toomey, Manchin - hey, being touted for President!). We will see about the House. Also, my optimism was based on the history of desegregation. In that case, the Federal government took Brown as a case to move against states. That certainly isn't the case here.

If you understand that analyses change based on evidence, you might move beyond rhetoric.

Oh, I am quite capable of comprehending that analysis can change over time, based upon evidence. However, how one chooses to present evidence, and what one chooses to characterize as evidence, can impact the process of analysis, itself.

Additionally, I am quite capable of moving beyond rhetoric, can certainly where what is at issue is my ability and/or willingness to analyze an issue. That said, the fact that I am able to move beyond rhetoric does not mean that I am compelled to agree with your conclusions. From my perspective, I believe that allowing one's own pessimism to color their analysis can lead to error in what is concluded.

Glenn E. Meyer said:
I'm not seeing Heller or Mc as a magic wand.

I don't see it as a magic wand, either. On that, at least, we are in agreement, though perhaps for different reasons.

Glenn E. Meyer said:
I'd bet that the only thing it will protect is the right to have a double barrel - with appropriate registration - when the dust settles. Rights to handguns and EBRs will be iffy.

I don't agree, but certainly, you're entitled to your opinion. Heller already protects more than a right to have a double-barreled shotgun, and McDonald already incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.

Glenn E. Meyer said:
State laws like the SAFE act will limit access to those and will the SCOTUS overturn. Place you bets on the wiley old bird. Note the NYTimes article does discuss the holes I pointed out as legitimizing such laws.

Lots of newspaper articles discuss lots of things. I take what I read in newspapers with a grain of salt, on any issue. On the finer points of constitutional interpretation by the United States Supreme Court, the New York Times is not where I, personally, would turn for guidance.

Glenn E. Meyer said:
See what happens for other cases - Posner's decision? That will tell the tale rather than old wily bird praise.

Posner's recent opinion in Moore v. Madigan is yet another positive development. Is it a wonderful solution, in and of itself? No, although it did make many feel wonderful, after they read it (but not everyone, of course). Welcome to terra incognita!

Much of what you want to see explored remains unexplored territory for the United States Supreme Court. These things take time.

Even things that the Heller case did not call into question, could still be called into question.

If a right is not absolute, then it can be regulated. The right to keep and bear arms is not a right that is absolute in nature, and consequently, it can be regulated. The devil, as always, is in the details.

That said, if you believe that the right to carry in the school environment, whether on a college campus or some other school environment, then by all means, advocate on behalf of such. Do you have a list handy compiled of your core arguing points in support of school carry that I could read?
 
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I don't agree, but certainly, you're entitled to your opinion. Heller already protects more than a right to have a double-barreled shotgun, and McDonald already incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.
Yep, it protects the right to have a handgun in the home. At the moment, we come to a full stop right there.

That doesn't preclude bans based on capacity or type. It doesn't preclude limiting a household to a singular handgun. It doesn't preclude local bans on rifles or magazines. Nor has it done anything to roll back arbitrary "good cause" licensing schemes.

Seeing these problems persist, and seeing new ones created, can be cause for pessimism. The developments of the last four months, including this week's refusal of cert, don't help.

Heller and McDonald were good developments, and I hope they were the foot in the door. However, if our progress stops there, I do fear for the future.
 
The Supremes may also be waiting to see what shakes out from the three carry cases from the 9th Circus - two from California, one from Hawaii.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Do I have list for you? Amusing.

Actually, I was serious. I didn't know if perhaps you had condensed your core arguments and beliefs on the subject of school carry, down through the years. I was simply interested in reading them if you had. Sometimes, reading such material can be useful in giving spark to thoughts of my own, on various subject matter. I really haven't pondered school carry, at great length.

On a personal level, I certainly favor school carry. But, that's primarily due to the fact that I think that it would be good public policy. Accidents and violence will happen, no matter what, but as a general rule of thumb, I do not favor laws that seek to intentionally increase the vulnerability of the populace at large to the multitude of criminal elements that roam society.

Constitutionality doesn't hinge upon whether the law in question is good public policy or bad policy, though.

Tom Servo said:
Yep, it protects the right to have a handgun in the home. At the moment, we come to a full stop right there.

I understand that reasoning, but whereas you might see it as us coming to a full stop, right there, I see it somewhat differently. From my perspective, Heller, far from being little more than a lurch and then we are brought to a grinding halt, I see it more as having put the ball into motion.

The Second Amendment refers - and protects - the right to bear arms. It doesn't mention handguns. The Supreme Court hasn't construed "arms" in the right to keep and bear arms to be limited to just and only handguns.

Tom Servo said:
That doesn't preclude bans based on capacity or type. It doesn't preclude limiting a household to a singular handgun. It doesn't preclude local bans on rifles or magazines. Nor has it done anything to roll back arbitrary "good cause" licensing schemes.

Understood - but neither has it upheld the very bans of which you complain. No single case will be a panacea, for the very simple reason that it couldn't be.

As far as local bans are concerned, it's not as though incorporation against the States in McDonald shields local governments from that very same incorporation. There will always be local governments that enact all sorts of laws. It took a while for the First Amendment's broad nature to be fleshed out by our judiciary. Rome will not be built in a day for the Second Amendment, either.

Tom Servo said:
Seeing these problems persist, and seeing new ones created, can be cause for pessimism. The developments of the last four months, including this week's refusal of cert, don't help.

Certiorari denied doesn't speak to the merits or the demerits of a give case. The anxiety and frustration that individuals feel, when certiorari is denied in a case that one might prefer the Court to take is not to be equated with constitutional frustration of a given right in question. So, that we, as individuals or even as groups sometimes find our patience to be a bit lacking, it is hardly cause for constitutional despair.

The Court ruled narrowly in Heller, but the overall wording of the entire opinion isn't narrow - not by a long shot.

Tom Servo said:
Heller and McDonald were good developments, and I hope they were the foot in the door. However, if our progress stops there, I do fear for the future.

From my perspective, Heller and McDonald were more than just mere good developments. Federal judges at the circuit level now talk in their own Second Amendment jurisprudence about this new terra incognita. Terra incognita isn't the equivalent of a constitutional ant hill.

Heller, by its own account, was the Court's first in-depth examination of the Second Amendment. It took until the 21st century for this first in-depth examination to occur.

I believe that Scalia's opinion for the Court in Heller crafted a very solid foundation for Second Amendment jurisprudence going forward. Heller and McDonald were precedent-setting opinions. I regard them as such, anyway. They are not inconsequential in scope or nature or substance.

That many choose to try and water their significance down with a flood of pessimism doesn't alter their constitutional significance by so much as a single, solitary iota.

It is said that patience is a virtue. It's most needed, when it is most needed.

The right to keep and bear arms is not a right that is absolute in nature. So, with no case, under any realistic scenario, is perfection to be achieved. Short of a constitutional amendment to the United States Constitution, the right to keep and bear arms will never be construed by our judiciary to be absolute in nature.

Certainly, some issues present more favorable challenges than do others. But, that's just a fact of life, not a cause for despair.

What does pessimism gain one, anyway? Stress? Worry? Does it make one's prospects on the constitutional front better?
 
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