The Perils of Scalia

Welcome to TFL, Charles Mosteller!

That's quite a first post you've put together there, and I'll have to read it in more depth when I get back from the groc store.

As for the quote button, you have to hit "Post Reply," and look above the box that you type in. It's not out there on the forum page, and has nothing to do with being a new member.
 
Welcome, and thanks for that post...

I have long felt that Justice Scalia indeed knew very well what he was saying, but could never put it into words the way you have...

Bring on the next Vampire, please...
 
The results count. Tell me how long it will take for the NY, CT and CO (and others in pipeline) laws are found to be unconstitutional under Heller, etc.

Otherwise strings of electrons are just that.

I'm an empiricist - I'm waiting for results.

I'd ask our legal eagles - what is the estimated time before the SAFE act gets to the SCOTUS - assuming they take the case?

PS - since the two recent SCOTUS decisions did not discourage those state actions - can we say that they were so decisive in squelching legislative attacks on the 2nd Amend. I doubt a state would try a law to re-segregative its schools. Certainly, attacks on Roe are popping up all over and that was said to be very clear.

If in close proximity to their passing, laws like those in NY, etc. overturned then I'd be wrong in my worries.

Also, a change in the court might easily use the carefully crafted language of reasonble restrictions to do quite a bit of restriction. It's an empirical question to see how it plays out.
 
Last edited:
Glenn, I'm confused why you think the amount of time it takes for the watershed opinion of Heller versus DC to have its effect is a significant measure of its importance or efficacy. If we are successful, it will be because the wide net that was first cast is gradually drawn in until the least possible degree of infringement remains. We didn't get here overnight. What a legislature can do in a few weeks or months inevitably takes years to untangle in the courts.

The fact that the death knell for unlimited second amendment infringement is about 50 years behind the curve hasn't helped, but here we are. Kachalsky and it's ilk is only about carry outside the home. We still have to deal with assault weapons, sensitive places, scrutiny, so-called safe rosters, interstate travel and reciprocity (or equal protection, if you will), and, no doubt, a few other pithy issues that aren't coming to mind at the moment.

But as each case is decided, the noose tightens; broad principles will be settled, and infringement will be more and more difficult for states so inclined. It's going to take time, possibly decades to unravel this mess.
 
Maestro P said:
Glenn, I'm confused why you think the amount of time it takes for the watershed opinion of Heller versus DC to have its effect is a significant measure of its importance or efficacy. If we are successful, it will be because the wide net that was first cast is gradually drawn in until the least possible degree of infringement remains. We didn't get here overnight. What a legislature can do in a few weeks or months inevitably takes years to untangle in the courts.
But isn't that the problem? It didn't, but let's say the current trend started with the NY "SAFE" act. It's being challenged in court on (among other things) constitutional grounds. But while that process is on-going, Connecticut stepped up to the plate with their 139-page smorgasbord of new and amended gun laws, Colorado enacted their own version, and I believe New Jersey is poised to pass more draconian gun laws.

As more states pass more laws, the process of weeding them out and shooting them down becomes exponentially longer, more difficult, and more costly (for both sides). It would be nice (albeit not possible) if something like the NY SAFE act could have been zapped within days of passage, thereby sending a message to other states contemplating similar legislation.
 
to: the most educated in law at FTL

from: the least educated in law.

I am color blind. I see black and white.

I have known that for many years, those in high places, both in business, law and government, see gray as well. In fact, the 80/20 rule seems to apply here.

I have watched for years our laws be tweaked, interpreted and seemingly inverted.

I do believe the above poster when they say it may take decades to tighten the noose but while the clock ticks, they are finding ways to cut the rope.

We were 1 SCOTUS vote away from a much different world in 2013. The UN treaty vote could nail the shut the platform from which they are perched.


It's only a pearl of Scalia if there is time for it to grow.
 
Last edited:
Decades - I rest my case on the sound of Scalia's Celestial Chorus signaling the end to gun control attempts. Where is the Angelic Smilie?

Unless there is a sea change that moves major parts of the antigun demographics or (I don't see how), the SCOTUS comes forward with a more decisive opinion that clearly states common usage isn't a double barrel and reasonable restrictions don't include ARs, mags, carry in church, etc. - we have not really won.

One recalls that folks didn't want a SCOTUS case as we might have lost (5/4). Who is to say that SAFE might not be affirmed. Justices vote their politics as the best predictor.

Look at Roe - that isn't over and folks hope this court will overturn.

We might end up with the right across all states to have reasonable double barrel shotguns with birdshot loads. The 2nd protects the right to shoot them into the air (or through the door).

We are going to see a state by state polarization but depending on the next court appointment and elections - Heller and M. may mean very little.

Look, how many times did we state that you can defend yourself with shotgun and SW Model 10? That could be reasonable.
 
Glenn E Meyer said:
I'd ask our legal eagles - what is the estimated time before the SAFE act gets to the SCOTUS - assuming they take the case?

No legal eagle here, but from talking to Jim Tresmond, and if memory serves me correctly, he thought it would be next spring.
 
What does legal research indicate in similar situations on modern social issues?

Affirmative action, Roe, etc. I remember desegration was a slow road till a definitive decision.

We can be overly optimistic that Scalia and company will leap forward in admitting that they were not as clear as desired to truly support the 2nd. Amend.
 
I sorta agree with Glenn in the fact that I seem to be reading a lot of contorted arguments that state while Heller does recognize the RKBA, it doesn't extend to AR-15s and the like, mainly citing the common use argument.
 
Well, the common-use argument pretty much covers the AR-15. It is our primary infantry rifle, it is a wildly popular civilian gun...I just can't see any kind of credible logical contortion that would say otherwise.

As more states pass more laws, the process of weeding them out and shooting them down becomes exponentially longer, more difficult, and more costly (for both sides).
That's what worries me. Winning by attrition is still winning, and I wonder if the antis aren't taking the strategy of simply trying to wear us down.
 
Peetza said:
No legal eagle here, but from talking to Jim Tresmond, and if memory serves me correctly, he thought it would be next spring.

For some perspective, let's look at the time line in the Parker v. CA case (Challenge to Ab962 - pistol ammo ban - #22 on the list).

The case was filed back oin July of 2010. a Permanent Injunction was issued against the State in Jan. 20th, 2011. Compared to the federal courts we had been following, this was quite fast.

Oh, but it's not over! The State appealed on 06/14/2011 and the appeal is still ongoing, almost 2 years later! I can guarantee that whichever side loses, the case will be appealed to the CA Supreme Court. So we are looking at another 2-3 years of continued litigation on this case.

I suspect the reality of the NY cases to be about the same.

Meanwhile we are also on course to get another case before the US Supreme Court.

The Court may actually prefer to take on the Moore case (for several reasons), so they may decide to delist Kachalsky, in hopes that Madigan will file for cert. Yet Woollard is still alive, because of the petition for en banc. I feel Magiagn will not file for cert. This puts the ball in Gura's court with a possibly delisted Kachalsky and a probable denial of en banc in Woollard - which will then be petitioned for cert. Another possibility is that Kachalsky is granted cert. In which case, Woollard would be granted the en banc rehearing, but would be immediately stayed, pending Kachalsky.

Moore is the cleanest case, as it poses a total ban on carry. Woollard is the next cleanest case, as Mr. Woollard actually held a permit, before it was denied at a second renewal, even though Kalchalsky and Woollard are essentially the same, at law.

So we have Gura covering all the bases.

We also have most all of the lower courts in rebellion against the Heller decision. While we really don't know how the SCOTUS feels about being ignored by the lower courts, I suspect none of the Justices like this, regardless of their personal feelings on Heller/McDonald.

Then we have the folks over at SCOTUS Blog who have made Kachalsky, a petition to be watched. These attorneys and court reporters are very good at picking the cases that the Court will most likely select to hear.

This brings us the reality that we will have some of the issue of carry outside the home, settled by June of 2014 to about 75%-80%. How far it may be settled will depend upon which of these three cases the Court decides to take.

This all ties in with the post by our new member, Charles Mosteller (welcome, Charles). The next "vampire."

The idea of "in common use" along with fees will be the next hurdle, with perhaps fees being in a slight lead.

Now that the battles seem to have shifted to individual States, we will need more attorneys like James Tresmond (NY), Jason Davis (CA) and Michel & Assoc. (CA) to begin the heavy lifting at this level, while others, Like Gura, Sigale, Manley, Monroe, Kilmer and Jensen continue to hammer away at the Federal Level.
 
But a single steak through the heart would be a quick and tidy way to slay the beast, of course.
Perhaps you meant "stake?" Driving a steak through the heart would be a tedious and messy proposition ;)

All silliness aside, you made a great point. Scalia's words in Heller were well-considered, and despite cries from some in the gun culture ("he didn't repeal the NFA!"), he did quite a bit for us within the context of the questions posed. If he'd gone farther, the accusations of judicial activism from the other side would have rung truer.

Moore is the cleanest case, as it poses a total ban on carry. Woollard is the next cleanest case, as Mr. Woollard actually held a permit, before it was denied at a second renewal, even though Kalchalsky and Woollard are essentially the same, at law.
I still think we have a good chance with Woollard because the plaintiff's very real peril aptly demonstrates the injustice inherent in "good cause" discretion. I'm happy to see the issue addressed by any of the three cases at hand, but Woollard definitely tugs at the heartstrings. That can matter.

That said, the timing inadvertently ends up being a bit wonky. A case challenging the constitutionality of the NY SAFE Act (or equivalent laws in CO and CT) will have to wait a year or more.
 
Tom Servo said:
Perhaps you meant "stake?" Driving a steak through the heart would be a tedious and messy proposition

Oops! I appreciate the correction, Tom. I thought that I got all of the typos on my last sweep back through the posting. I went back and corrected stake for steak in the previous posting, for clarity's sake.

I was hungry, at the time that I posted, though. A good steak for lunch would have been tasty.
 
Al Norris said:
For some perspective, let's look at the time line in the Parker v. CA case (Challenge to Ab962 - pistol ammo ban - #22 on the list).

He definitely didn't think it would be that long. As I recall, there's some unique processes in the NY system that can move the thing along.
 
To continue with my concerns. I have been involved in the campus carry debate. After all, some of the greatest force for the antigun forces has been the rampages at schools - VT, Columbine and Newton. I have testified for a campus carry bill in TX (which will probably go nowhere yet again in a seemingly progun state), told our Faculty Senate that they were incorrect and had public disagreement with our President (not a shrinking violet am I). Thus, as I said - we can run, hide and flee after the first thirty or so are killed. As quoted in the TX newspapers, I am left with my ninja IPad of death.

All that might have been washed away, except for this pearl of wisdom:

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any
manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed
weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment
or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast
doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by
felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms
in sensitive places such as schools
and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those
“in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition
of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
Pp. 54–56.

Thus, tell me how Scalia's words of wisdom have helped in the battle to allow one to protect against a school rampage? I really fail to see it.

Again, it will be an empirical question whether prose becomes actuality for gun rights. A 2nd Amend. challenge to carrying in schools seems already lost. Even in strong gun rights states, carry at schools is an iffy proposition.

Maybe I will be allowed to carry a Biden Double Barrel Blaster to school - yep.

IIRC, in McDonald - the antigun justices returned to the position that there is no right to bear arms as we see it.
 
Right now the entire "gun issue" in the courts is about three remaining issues:

1) Do we have a right to carry ("bear arms") and if so what is the scope? This will get settled soon, likely via the Kachalsky case...we may know more on that as early as tomorrow. My prediction: the Supremes will take it, and decide that we must have SOME right to carry, with permitless open carry the "baseline" unless there is a respectable form of concealed carry available. This is what Heller footnote 9 is all about, and it also matches the 2003 Ohio Supreme Court decision in Klein. We can live with that because open carry will get us concealed carry in rapid fashion.

2) What rights do we have to own particular guns? "AW" issues, mag capacity, calibers, etc. I consider this of secondary importance after carry, because if necessary we can carry well enough with revolvers, 1911 and various mouseguns.

3) "Who can carry" will mainly revolve around age limits (21 vs. 18) and issues relating to reformed criminals of various types.

4) "Where we carry" runs into that "sensitive places" language Scalia stuck in there. It's a problem. Best solution will be to say "if you're serious, you've got metal detectors up otherwise it's NOT all that sensitive".
 
I'd disagree on your second point, Jim. The defense against tyranny view of the 2nd Amend. would argue against just having revolvers and 1911s for carry.

That would give constitutional approval to a new AWB - which would sale through after another Sandy Hook.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Thus, tell me how Scalia's words of wisdom have helped in the battle to allow one to protect against a school rampage? I really fail to see it.

Again, it will be an empirical question whether prose becomes actuality for gun rights. A 2nd Amend. challenge to carrying in schools seems already lost. Even in strong gun rights states, carry at schools is an iffy proposition.

To be certain, no Supreme Court opinion ever written are a proper and full substitute for courage, preparedness, and wisdom. The wisdom (or lack of wisdom) of a legislative act isn't open to judicial inquiry.

That said, Scalia was authoring a judicial opinion for the Court for a single, particular case - not a personal treatise covering the full range of his thoughts on all matters that the right to keep and bear arms could potentially touch or have relevance to.

Scalia full well knows that every case turns on its own facts. The facts of the Heller case did not deal with schools, generally, or with college campuses, just it didn't deal with many other things (whether those other things be the National Firearms Act, abortion, or jaywalking). Scalia's opinion in the Heller case was never intended to be a panacea, for the very simple reason that it couldn't be. That's just not how things work, and certainly not at the level of the Supreme Court of the United States.

Page # 1 of the opinion provides clarification on what is under consideration, for the sake of the opinion being rendered. I quote verbatim from the opening of the opinion:

"We consider whether a District of Columbia prohibition on the possession of usable handguns in the home violates the Second Amendment to the Constitution."

Thus, in accordance with the concept of judicial restraint, other issues must await their day in the constitutional sun to be treated to in-depth scrutiny in binding opinion. It would be premature for Scalia to try and author an opinion on carrying arms on a college campus setting, in a case that had nothing, whatsoever, to do with schools.

Also, the Supreme Court doesn't just cast the equivalent of a net, in order to bring cases and controversies before it. It can pretty much pick and choose, where certiorari cases are concerned, but its menu is limited to what others bring to it. Criteria is used to weed out many cases from consideration.

That said, how have Scalia's "words of wisdom," as you described it, helped in the battle to allow one to protect against a school rampage?

Well, if you extract only a few words that he said out of the whole thing that he said, then you have already made the decision to blind yourself to the full potential of the opinion's eventual impact.

It would take some rather bizarre strain of judicial alchemy in order to transmogrify a case about prohibition on the possession of usable handguns in the home into a comprehensive victory for carrying arms on school campuses. Disappointment that emanates from the absence of such judicial alchemy being on display in the controlling opinion in the case serves what purpose? Blinding one's own self to the actual realities of a given case - to include judicial limitations on how far the Court may reach in a single opinion predicated upon a different subject matter, is hardly an indictment of the opinion rendered.

With regard to the passage from the Heller opinion that you quoted, Scalia engaged in what I previous described as the "art of ceding." He ceded on the particular (and very narrow) point that the right in question, what he characterized as the Second Amendment right (even though he knows that the actual right in question doesn't emanate or originate from the Second Amendment), in order to get that potential distraction out of the way.

In all fairness, Scalia doesn't believe that the right to keep and bear arms is an absolute, unlimited right. Does any sitting supreme court justice actually believe such?

When Scalia stated, "It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose," he's absolutely right. Think about what he actually said, in that particular sentence. He's not sanctioning, via the judicial power, the use of any weapon for any purpose. Whatever means whatever - it is a term that is all-encompassing. All-encompassing would include all sorts of crimes. he dealt with much, in a very tidy manner, in doing so. It allows him to be efficient and focused on what remains before him - the actual issue under consideration.

When he said, "For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues," one should resist the temptation to not read into what he has said, things that he has not said. He did not say, in that statement, for example, that the issue of concealed weapons prohibitions could not be visited or revisited another day. He also did not say that all of those existing prohibitions would ultimately or necessarily prevail, if they are challenged properly. Rather, in the space of a single paragraph, he is merely wasting little time expounding upon lots and lots of things that are not at issue in the case under consideration. That's in the interest of judicial economy, if nothing else.

Of course, you may well disfavor the final two sentences in that paragraph that you hold in disdain, and that you so lament over. So, let's ponder it a bit, also.

"The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

The reason that the Court's opinion in Heller, the opinion that Scalia authored, should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms, is for the very simple reason that the case at hand wasn't an inquiry into those other things. That the current case was ripe for consideration did not mean, therefore, that everything else under the proverbial sun was suddenly fair game for a big game safari hunt by the Article III court in session.

The final sentence, "Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons," was quite deliberate on Scalia's part, I believe. Again, all of this that I am writing is my opinion of one, just myself.

The point to focus on? Dangerous and unusual weapons.

The issue is not whether a given arm (weapon) is dangerous, and the issue is not whether a given arm is unusual. Dangerous and unusual is a category all its own. So, the fact that some (or even many) guns are designed to kill is largely irrelevant. The "in common use" selection by Scalia is intended, I believe, to serve as a foundational cornerstone to protect most weapons in use by the law abiding in the republic. Scalia is doing what is known as "cabining it off." By cabining them off, Scalia is laying the ground work to protect them - in future cases that come under consideration by the court.

Scalia is a smart old bird. He already full well knows that the absolute vast majority of guns do not fall under the specific category of being dangerous and unusual. You crave constitutional gold, and yet you bemoan Scalia for giving you constitutional rubies. Go figure.

To deal more fully with "school carry," the Court requires school carry cases to be brought before it. Not even Scalia can spin constitutional gold out of thin air. He's a gifted writer, to be certain, and I love his use of colorful prose, when he authors opinions. But, no supreme court justice is so gifted that they can spin constitutional gold out of the thin air of the judicial firmament.
 
Back
Top