The other side of the coin

What I find "fascinating" is that you believe that, from 4 hours away, the husband HAS that prerogative.
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What in the world does being 4 hours away have to do with his prerogative to authorize forcible entry? It only goes to verifying his identity, which we've established could be done by a PD in his local.

Again I ask :

How will he Prove he is the rightful owner, or tenent at that address? Drivers license ? That only says he lives there, nothing more. Unless he happens to have a Deed or Lease with him he is short on proof.
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Absurd. We are supposed to carry a deed or lease around with us?
By your criteria, he wouldn't have been able to authorize entry if he were standing on the porch, because the documents you think are required would be in the house.

If the husband were suspected of a crime and there were probable cause, his address of record (as in driver's license) would be entirely sufficient to get a search warrant for the premises. The judge would assume the information to be correct and issue the warrant.

Why, then wouldn't it be sufficient for the lawful occupant to verify his home address for the purposes of a welfare check?

How will he prove that the woman at the address is his Wife, Girlfriend, etc.? Hope he has his marriage license, Oh ! I know ! a Picture of them together! How will he prove that this woman even lives there, or exists for that matter?
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Oh pulleeeez! He wouldn't need to, since he is the lawful occupant. He alone could authorize entry for good cause, like a welfare check on his pregnant, sick, and missing wife.

How will he Prove that there is an emergency, or for that matter, that she is even home ? Car in the driveway ?
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Again, irrelevant. He alone could authorize entry for good cause or no cause.

Maybe, or, she could have left with someone.
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SO WHAT! Welfare check completed. Wife not home. . . end of story.

The "imagination" possibilities are boundless.
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Except when it comes to facilitating the welfare check for the out of town husband.
 
which we've established could be done by a PD in his local.
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Would you, Please point out where that has been established and how it was established ? I am sorry but, I must have missed it.

By your criteria, he wouldn't have been able to authorize entry if he were standing on the porch, because the documents you think are required would be in the house.
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You are attempting to change the criteria by substitution, sorry, but that dog won't hunt. If the man were "standing on the porch", he would not need police to kick down the door, or, do a welfare check, I would think a key would be the only thing he might need. Nice try though.

If the husband were suspected of a crime and there were probable cause, his address of record (as in driver's license) would be entirely sufficient to get a search warrant for the premises. The judge would assume the information to be correct and issue the warrant.
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Again, you attempt to obfuscate. Notice the underlined words from your quote ? Particularly the words "probable cause" and "Judge" There is a reason that those things are necessary for another of the highlighted words, "warrant"
Those reasons are the same reasons that a "Forcible Entry" is not likely to be authorized by a dispatcher over a phone, or another cop 4 hours away. It's this inconvenient little thing called the Constitution.


He alone could authorize entry for good cause or no cause.
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Apparently not, the guy in the OP was not successful at it. He had no Proof, hence, no prerogative.


ETA: I have been involved in more locked threads, and had more accusations of "cop bashing" leveled at me than almost anyone else on this subfora; yet, even I can see the officers acted responsibly in this case. How the hell did this happen? :eek::confused:
 
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On your drug lab the cops will get a search warrant then bust the door so they won't lose all their evidence in court. The only way to kick the door is if you can explain how there were exigent circumstances that led you to believe kicking the door was the only thing to do. If the officers walked around the house looking in windows and saw her on the floor you are good to go. Unfortunatly in todays Sue happy world Morally right or wrong legally they were right.
 
Fascinating. Not only do I find myself completely convinced of the other side of an argument, I am in wonder at those who still are not.

You won't hear this come out of my mouth or off my keyboard very often, but I admire the patience and tenacity coming from you "coppahs" in this one.
 
Ok what does this get me?

"Hello 911, I am standing on the porch at my elderly fathers house, he asked me to come visit a few minutes ago, but now he doesn't answer the door and I think he is home because I see his hat thru the window and he never goes anywhere without his fedora. He has heart trouble so I'm kinda worried, can you send someone over?"

Does this get his door forcibly opened to check on him, or do you have to wait till someone complains about a foul smell a week later? Is there no middle ground?
 
If you don't have a key, rental agreement or a deed with your name on it, you are obviously wanting to break in to the house for nefarious reasons unrelated to to the health of your father. There is no legal path available to you to come to the aid of your father without endangering the careers of the officers who take the call. :rolleyes: I wouldn't wait for the police to open the door if I were you.
 
Yes, well I usually have a tire iron in the car so if it ever comes up, and this is really how it is....no need to bother anyone with my troubles.
 
Ok what does this get me?

"Hello 911, I am standing on the porch at my elderly fathers house, he asked me to come visit a few minutes ago, but now he doesn't answer the door and I think he is home because I see his hat thru the window and he never goes anywhere without his fedora. He has heart trouble so I'm kinda worried, can you send someone over?"
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Good question, let's analyze ;

You are: "Standing on the porch of your elderly Father's house" and you can get "no answer" at the door, You seem to have a suspicion that he is home, due to the forgotten fedora. Further, you fear that, since he has a history of "heart trouble" his health might be in jeopardy.

Since you do not have any legal constraints such as, probable cause, nor are you bound by laws against Illegal Search And it is unlikely that your Father, if he is still alive, will prosecute you for breaking and entering or burglary (even if you are wrong) I would think the logical course of action would be for You to forcibly enter the house, by whatever means necessary. I would think the next logical step would be to verify your Father's presence, and condition. The Final step would be to call 911 and request medical help if he is still alive, or request Police assistance if he has expired. Of course, if he is simply not home you will likely have some 'splainin' to do to him, and a door to repair.

Is there no middle ground?
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Yes, there is ! The "Middle Ground" of which you speak is commonly referred to as "personal responsibility".

:cool:
 
If you don't have a key, rental agreement or a deed with your name on it, you are obviously wanting to break in to the house for nefarious reasons unrelated to to the health of your father.
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Respectfully, His post stated quite clearly what his motives were.

There is no legal path available to you to come to the aid of your father
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There absolutely is, and it does not require a Police officer be present.

I wouldn't wait for the police to open the door if I were you.
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Agreed, If he requires medical attention, and you are on the porch, you can respond much more quickly, and possibly further a better outcome.

Yes, well I usually have a tire iron in the car so if it ever comes up,
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This would make an excellent tool for a forcible entry, good to remember. ;)
 
Well I ask out of curiosity, and leading this thread down a slippery slope isn't the attempt, but you are suggesting that I take responsibility when in doubt and that seems reasonable enough to me.
 
how bout simply calling a friend or relative to save the day....repeating myself.
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That would have been the smartest thing to do. In this situation I think the police should have taken some sort of measure to ensure and confirm the safety of a pregnant woman and her child. This would have probably been more easily facilitated had a relative or friend come to the apartment. If the officers acted within the scope of their authority, thats fine. I live in a place where their are far more police than there is actual crime. When you call the police, you get a fire truck, ambulance and usually another cop who cruises in to see whats going on. Then after the incident you get a follow visit or phone call. Plenty of time, man power and money in NOVA.
 
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You won't hear this come out of my mouth or off my keyboard very often, but I admire the patience and tenacity coming from you "coppahs" in this one.
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Dang Bud, I'm not in LE but, Don't I at least get an "honorable mention" ? ;)
 
Can someone educate us civilians about what tools that EMS/rescue people have and use to enter locked buildings?
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Yes, we have the Fire Department. And they have halligan tools and super sledges and the like on their trucks. HOWEVER, we are bound, at least down here, by the same standard as LE. If we don't have any evidence of a reason to enter a home for an emergency, we don't enter. Now if there is fairly solid reason to believe an emergency is taking place inside the home such as the car is in the drive-way running and it is apparent that it has been running for some time with nobody answering the door, I would personally use that as grounds to enter after 'staging' and awaiting LE.



RE: the OP. I think the coppers acted on the level in this situation. Of course, I would have been upset had it been my wife and all, but I would have been equally upset if I was laying on the couch asleep and the boys in black(they don't wear blue here) busted my door in because some smartarsed neighbor or friend called in a 'welfare check.' When I was younger, go ahead and laugh, I felt like cops used the law as a reason to act on one extreme or the other. Now that I work in armed security and spend a great deal of time BS'ing with our local LEO's and working around them, I can understand a great deal of why they do what they do.
 
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alloy said:
"Hello 911, I am standing on the porch at my elderly fathers house, he asked me to come visit a few minutes ago, but now he doesn't answer the door and I think he is home because I see his hat thru the window and he never goes anywhere without his fedora. He has heart trouble so I'm kinda worried, can you send someone over?"

Does this get his door forcibly opened to check on him, or do you have to wait till someone complains about a foul smell a week later? Is there no middle ground?
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This person doesn't need the police to force the door open for him. He can do it himself and should.
 
maestro pistolero said:
If you don't have a key, rental agreement or a deed with your name on it, you are obviously wanting to break in to the house for nefarious reasons unrelated to to the health of your father. There is no legal path available to you to come to the aid of your father without endangering the careers of the officers who take the call. I wouldn't wait for the police to open the door if I were you.
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Do you think that writing this sort of nonsense enhances your argument?
 
^I don't have a key to my parents' house, so I would have to force the door open. However, what if this guy isn't capable of forcing the door open? Duh, EMS/LE should roll and bust the door. Or, there is probably a neighbor nearby who has something in his garage to open the door. Hell, I know this may sound extreme, but if it's my family member inside and I have a reason to think they are in trouble, I just drove to their house, I can get in...a few more dings won't hurt my old Chevy...
 
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