The other side of the coin

[Wagonman]

So when a cop, swat team, busts down a door because of a "informant" who may or may not have been vetted and ends up being the wrong address, it's ok

No, and this happens so infrequently that it is almost a straw man.

But a voice on the phone about a medical emergency is not ok. Seems the adrenial junkie call gets the go ahead. Are cops today really that obtuse?

No, smart ones don't break the law. I am not breaking down any doors based on a voice on a phone.

emailed this thread to a 20 year veteran of LE, friend of the family. His response, well, was WTF? And opined that if it were officers who worked under him, that they would not have a job after that.

Really, for doing what exactly? Not breaking down the door on shaky at best information? for not having X-Ray vison?

What's the difference between A caller wanting a health and welfare check and an informant with no evidence to back up his info and a caller in New York calling in a Swatting prank in California? Answer: the first does not get the door kicked in. The latter 2, cops trip over themselves to use the ninja gear. WTF.

If I stipulate that you shouldn't enter a house without a legit warrant or being invited do you stipulate these Coppers did nothing wrong?

 

[bigger hammer]

So when a cop, swat team, busts down a door because of a "informant" who may or may not have been vetted

Round here, and I'm pretty sure that it's the same in the rest of the country, an informant must be either reliable, or corroborated by evidence. There must be evidence of some criminal activity and there must be exigent circumstances that mitigate getting a search warrant before a door is "busted down." If you have evidence of it properly happening some other way, please, let's see it.

and ends up being the wrong address, it's ok.

I don't recall anyone saying that a mistake is "OK." Can you show us one of us saying that?

But a voice on the phone about a medical emergency is not ok.

Not unless something happens to provide evidence that there is indeed a medical emergency inside. Hearing someone call for help, seeing someone on the floor, or seeing bloody footprints from the dog are such things. If the informant is present and identifies themself, or is known to the police they're deemed to be reliable and action would be taken, but as you put it, "a voice on the phone," no, it's not enough.

Seems the adrenial junkie call gets the go ahead.

No they don't.

Are cops today really that obtuse?

Are you really this incapable of understanding?

I emailed this thread to a 20 year veteran of LE, friend of the family. His response, well, was WTF? And opined that if it were officers who worked under him, that they would not have a job after that.

I'd bet that after they broke in and found nothing, and he paid for a few doors and doorframes out of his own pocket, (sometimes as much as $1,000) he'd change his mind. This time it was real but usually it's not. Usually it's a crank call or someone making a mistake. I've already described a couple of them.

And you folks who support these cops for not doing anything, and you also support cops who bust in doors on lies and shakey info from a CI, seems like you want your cake and to eat it too.

Please show us anyone who supports breaking down a door based on information from a "shakey info from a CI."

What's the difference between A caller wanting a health and welfare check and an informant with no evidence to back up his info

If there's "no evidence to back up his info" then doors shouldn't be coming down.

and a caller in New York calling in a Swatting prank in California? Answer: the first does not get the door kicked in. The latter 2, cops trip over themselves to use the ninja gear.

Do you have some specific incident to back this up? I’m sure that it's happened, just about all of us have said that sometimes cops do the wrong thing, but when have any of us supported it?

 

[MosinM38]

I'd give them some slack.

It's bad but....

I am sure dozens of "Concerned family members" call police every day for trivial matters.

Think this is bad?

Can you imagine the upreoar if they had kicked down the door and for some reason everything was fin and she had decided not to go to the appointment?

 

[OuTcAsT]

O.K. This is really simple, and I will tell you why;

A close relative of mine works for my town's 911 dispatch center. After having her read this thread, and her husband, (who is a LEO), they both agree that the Police did everything they could in this instance. First, when a 911 call comes in, if it does not come from the residence in question, they will take note of where the call comes from, If it is a cell phone, or from another city (as the call in question was likely one or the other) it is considered to be somewhat "suspect" as there is no possible way to positively identify a voice on a phone. The request for a welfare check is not simply dismissed, LE or EMS is dispatched to check the premises as a priority.
They will knock on doors or windows, check for unlocked doors, look in windows (if possible) and call the home phone (if available) to attempt contact. Unless they have some evidence (they see someone lying on the floor thru the window, smoke is showing, evidence of a forcible entry, or the caller claims the occupant threatened suicide in the last few minutes) then that is where their responsibility ends. They have no legal authority to enter a private residence without evidence of an emergency. A voice on a phone is not substantial evidence in most cases. and understandably so. They both told me that a neighbor, or close relative, "at the scene", might be enough, if the evidence were strong enough to support a forced entry.

The law cuts both ways, the same law that protects us from an illegal search, (or a prank phone call) Also places "personal" responsibility firmly on the shoulders of you, your family, and friends, if you, or someone in your home, has special medical needs. I can take no umbrage with the officers in this case, they stayed within the law all the way, as it should be. Is it regrettable that this happened ? Absolutely, but the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the only persons who took a calculated risk, the Husband, and ultimately, the Wife.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

until the lawyers stop suing everyone for everything, don't expect a police officer to help you out when he is not required to. There are all kinds of things he could be liable for once he enters that house. Why don't officers unlock car doors for people anymore? It isn't b/c they are too busy. It only takes 30 seconds if they know what they are doing. It is b/c if they break the lock they may have to pay for it. Fifty years ago that was not true.

 

[maestro pistolero]

The lack of basic human compassion was traded off for the defense of CYA police officers, who didn't even have the wisdom or experience to articulate a proper reason for failing to act. 'We don't have the tools' amounts to 'the dog ate my homework'.

Shouldn't there be SOME means for a welfare check in such a circumstance? For example, what if a police officer in the location of the husband were to verify his ID and call it in? How long could that take? If I, as a civilian, in 5 seconds, can think of a way to verify the gentlemen's identity, why is that so insurmountable for LE professionals?

Let me ask all of you, including the OP, If YOUR pregnant wife, who you knew to be 100 percent reliable and prompt for doctors appointments, missed an appointment while you were 4 hours away, and was unable to be reached by phone, what would you want or expect the police to do? OH wait, they would take your word for it, because YOU have a BADGE. Put yourself in this man's position for two seconds. Is walking away really the responsible thing to do? Is it REALLY the only option, drive away and don't look back?

 

[OuTcAsT]

So when a cop, swat team, busts down a door because of a "informant" who may or may not have been vetted and ends up being the wrong address, it's ok.

Nope, That is an illegal act and all heads concerned should roll. Unfortunately, it usually does not work that way, but that is a different debate.

But a voice on the phone about a medical emergency is not ok.

First, how could the husband claim a "medical emergency" from 4 hours away, he is not there, and has only the fact that she is not answering the phone as evidence. Police responded, tried to see if they could find any evidence that someone was in trouble, all was quiet, end of story. Second, Do you really want it that easy to get a door kicked in ? Easy enough that I could call from right here and say " I'm Dustmonkey's Brother, (of course, I'm not) he is not answering the phone and I think he might be in the midst of a medical emergency could you swing by and kick in the door to check" ? I think not. You and I have come down on the same side of an argument such as this more than once, but this time you are a bit off-base friend. Put aside your outrage over abuses of LE powers that have occurred ( there are plenty, on that we agree) and look at this incident, you will see that the cops stayed lawful and that is a good thing. It is s shame this lady had to suffer this alone, and thank God she, and the baby are OK, but the blame goes on the husband, he knew there was an issue, and chose to leave her there alone, his attempt to shift his personal responsibility to someone else to cover his own negligence is the outrageous part of this story.

 

[bigger hammer]

The lack of basic human compassion was traded off for the defense of CYA police officers, who didn't even have the wisdom or experience to articulate a proper reason for failing to act. 'We don't have the tools' amounts to 'the dog ate my homework'.

I've already said that it's probable that excuse was given by the dispatcher so she (pretty sexist huh?) didn't have to give an long detailed explanation.

Shouldn't there be SOME means for a welfare check in such a circumstance? For example, what if a police officer in the location of the husband were to verify his ID and call it in? How long could that take? If I, as a civilian, in 5 seconds, can think of a way to verify the gentlemen's identity, why is that so insurmountable for LE professionals?

Unless someone at the PD he was calling recognized his voice or he called his own department and got them to call the PD where the home was, there's no way of verifying his identity. This is key to changing the situation, determining if he has the authority to give permission to enter.

Let me ask all of you, including the OP, If YOUR pregnant wife, who you knew to be 100 percent reliable and prompt for doctors appointments, missed an appointment while you were 4 hours away, and was unable to be reached by phone, what would you want or expect the police to do? OH wait, they would take your word for it, because YOU have a BADGE.

The difference is that there's a way to verify through official channels the identity of a police officer. And since it had gone though all those official channels if it turned out that she had a flat tire on her way to the doctor's office, certainly much more likely an occurrence than what we have here, he'd know that he was on the hook for damage that was caused.

There is a way to get all this done but depending on calls for service (this is not an known emergency) it might take just as long as it took him to drive home. He could have called an officer from the PD where he worked to his office and shown him his ID that had his home address on it. Failing that he could have used the company's records to establish that he DID live there. Then that officer could have his station call the PD where he lived, where his wife was and then he could have given permission.

Put yourself in this man's position for two seconds. Is walking away really the responsible thing to do? Is it REALLY the only option, drive away and don't look back?

It's the only thing that the law and policy lets us do these days.

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[johnbt]

"If YOUR pregnant wife, who you knew to be 100 percent reliable and prompt for doctors appointments, missed an appointment while you were 4 hours away, and was unable to be reached by phone, what would you want or expect the police to do? "

Search every hospital emergency room; every ditch and waterway between the house and the doctor's office; every Wal-Mart pharmacy; and every doc in a box clinic; and put out a freaking apb you know. Well, you asked.

I mean, really, what evidence is there that my wife is at home and the police (coppers to those of you stuck in the 19th century or somewhere else) need to kick the door in.

John

 

[TailGator]

Did the dispatcher err in sending only police officers, without EMS/rescue people?

I understand the reluctance of police to break down doors on the basis of a telephone call, but the situation was that a man was concerned about his pregnant wife not responding, possibly for quite a period of time (not entirely clear from the article). The comparison to someone missing a lunch date or not answering a phone call may not be entirely apt; there was at least some reason to be concerned about a medical problem, and it turned out that those concerns were justified (with, admittedly, 20-20 hindsight).

Can someone educate us civilians about what tools that EMS/rescue people have and use to enter locked buildings?

 

[ftd]

The law cuts both ways, the same law that protects us from an illegal search, (or a prank phone call) Also places "personal" responsibility firmly on the shoulders of you, your family, and friends, if you, or someone in your home, has special medical needs. I can take no umbrage with the officers in this case, they stayed within the law all the way, as it should be. Is it regrettable that this happened ? Absolutely, but the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the only persons who took a calculated risk, the Husband, and ultimately, the Wife.

How did "special medical needs" become an issue in this case, besides the woman having an unexpected seizure?

How did the wife take a calculated risk? By getting pregnant?

Look, we all know that LEs have a really tough job and that they are abused for both doing and not doing. But aren't they supposed to investigate? Are there only 2 options - clicking out and busting down the door - in a situation like this? Maybe the abuse level would go down just a tad if more LEs tried just a little harder to actually help the people who employ them.

 

[OuTcAsT]

How did "special medical needs" become an issue in this case, besides the woman having an unexpected seizure?

I'm sorry, I just assumed that everyone had read the article that was posted in the OP concerning the fact that the woman was pregnant, and experiencing pain, enough so that she planned on seeing a doctor ASAP. (which, of course, turned out to be too late)
Pain is generally a good indicator that the body perceives something is not as it should be. My bad.

I would think this would qualify her as having a medical need. But this is only my opinion.

How did the wife take a calculated risk? By getting pregnant?

Usually, a sudden onset of pain, particularly during a pregnancy, would be treated as a symptom of a possible problem. I would submit that both husband, and wife took a risk by not seeking immediate medical attention, and by his leaving her alone, and going 4 hours away, only to seek attention at a later time.

But aren't they supposed to investigate?

You might also notice in the article that the police did respond, and investigate within the fullest extent allowed by legal means. They could find no evidence of a problem, reported as such, and left the home.

Are there only 2 options - clicking out and busting down the door

No, only 1 legal option.

in a situation like this?

The "situation" is that an unknown, male, claiming to be the husband of the occupant, called from a great distance away, and requested a welfare check of the woman in the home. Police responded, saw nothing to indicate that there was a problem, (or for that matter, anyone at home) and left.

I will ask the same question of you that I asked in an earlier post ;

Do you really want it that easy to get a door kicked in ? Easy enough that I could call from right here and say " I'm Dustmonkey's Brother, (of course, I'm not) he is not answering the phone and I think he might be in the midst of a medical emergency could you swing by and kick in the door to check" ?

It is a simple choice, either you want the protections the law offers against an unlawful forced entry into your home, or you do not.

 

[Al Norris]

I'm sorry, I just assumed that everyone had read the article that was posted in the OP concerning the fact that the woman was pregnant, and experiencing pain, enough so that she planned on seeing a doctor ASAP. (which, of course, turned out to be too late)
Pain is generally a good indicator that the body perceives something is not as it should be. My bad.

There's an awful lot of this article, and the resultant claim, that just didn't meet the smell test.

The above exemplifies my initial reaction. Just what was this husband thinking?

OuTcAsT, what I've found is that people read what they want to read. Just like they hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see.

When it comes to the police, some only see the bad. Facts, be damned.

 

[bigger hammer]

Look, we all know that LEs have a really tough job and that they are abused for both doing and not doing. But aren't they supposed to investigate? Are there only 2 options - clicking out and busting down the door - in a situation like this? Maybe the abuse level would go down just a tad if more LEs tried just a little harder to actually help the people who employ them.

What "abuse level" are you referring to? What would you have the police do in a situation like this?

 

[OuTcAsT]

Antipitas,

You are, of course, correct.

 

[Michael Anthony]

I'm with Antipitas, Outcast. You're talking to a brick wall it seems. The fact remains they had no legal authority or duty to enter. That's not your opinion... it is a fact... and people will still argue.

The very same people who cry out about their civil rights being violated are the ones who want the police to be "proactive." The truth is you don't want the police you think you want. If you lived in a country that was not free, the police would have the authority to kick in any door they want. It does indeed cut both ways.

Outcast also hit the nail on the head with his statements about their friends and family. Safety and welfare is a community problem (of which the police are a part), not just a police problem.

I think the ones crying out simply may not know how common the welfare check call is answered. They are split to three types of welfare checks: A) The caller just can't reach the person, B) The caller wants to harass the person or C) Various other BS.

 

[Donn_N]

Aboagye says he asked police to break down the door but says police were unable to do so because they did not have the tools.

I stumbled onto this thread searching for something else, but the above sentence tells most of the story as far as I'm concerned.

There didn't seem to be any reluctance on the part of the police to break down the door, only that they were too whimpy to do so without tools.

Yes, I read the posts saying the dispatcher probably lied rather than just say, "They can't legally do that, sir", but I'm not buying it. Are dispatchers trained to just make stuff up rather than stating the simple truth?

And while police don't generally break down the door of the wrong address, they do break down doors and perform raids on the basis of anonymous tips, so the idea that they couldn't break down the door on the say so of the victim's husband, is a little silly.

 

[bigger hammer]

Aboagye says he asked police to break down the door but says police were unable to do so because they did not have the tools.

I stumbled onto this thread searching for something else, but the above sentence tells most of the story as far as I'm concerned.

It does? It seems to me that it's only a very minor, side issue, of the story.

There didn't seem to be any reluctance on the part of the police to break down the door, only that they were too whimpy to do so without tools.

They didn't break the door down because they had no cause to do so.

Yes, I read the posts saying the dispatcher probably lied rather than just say, "They can't legally do that, sir", but I'm not buying it.

It's pretty much guaranteed that had the dispatcher said what you suggest, the discussion would turn into the same sort of argument that we have here. Sorry, but police dispatchers have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in this.

Are dispatchers trained to just make stuff up rather than stating the simple truth?

The "Unofficial Mantra"of the Marine Corps is "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome." Sounds as if she "improvised." Uhoh! Is that more "militarization of the police?" lol

And while police don't generally break down the door of the wrong address, they do break down doors and perform raids on the basis of anonymous tips, so the idea that they couldn't break down the door on the say so of the victim's husband, is a little silly. [Emphasis added]

No they don't (at least not properly) "on the basis of ANONYMOUS tips." Since you disagree, please show us evidence to support this statement.

 

[Wagonman]

coppers to those of you stuck in the 19th century or somewhere else)

What does that comment mean?

Yes, I read the posts saying the dispatcher probably lied rather than just say, "They can't legally do that, sir", but I'm not buying it. Are dispatchers trained to just make stuff up rather than stating the simple truth?

Uh yeah, The Police are legally allowed to lie in the course of their duty-----kinda makes the playing field level since everyone lies to us.

And while police don't generally break down the door of the wrong address, they do break down doors and perform raids on the basis of anonymous
tips, so the idea that they couldn't break down the door on the say so of the victim's husband, is a little silly.

No they don't and if they do they will be punished.

For everyone who wanted the Police to kick in the door and save the day PM me your address and I will have the Police come to your home at 0 dark thirty, kick in your door and get you medical assistance.

Why couldn't the husband called a friend or family member to handle the situation? He could've broken every window or door LEGALLY.

 

[JustDreadful]

Why couldn't the husband called a friend or family member to handle the situation? He could've broken every window or door LEGALLY.

Now there's a sensible question