Aguila Blanca
Staff
Hmmm ...thallub said:
A. Dissolve the NRA
...
G. Make the named defendants (LaPierre, et. al.) pay restitution to the NRA [that we just dissolved] and pay damages to the NRA [that we just dissolved].
The New York AG Takes Action Against The NRA
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A. Dissolve the NRA
...
G. Make the named defendants (LaPierre, et. al.) pay restitution to the NRA [that we just dissolved] and pay damages to the NRA [that we just dissolved].
Hmmm ...
It could be added to the charitable donation of any money held by the NRA after dissolution. Obviously all this stuff will not happen.
BTW: The stuckee in this debacle is the NRA counsel, John Frazer. Frazer passed the bar exam in 2009, was hired by the NRA in about 2015 and has little experience practicing law. He could be disbarred.
ADDED:
IMO: In his Prayer For Relief in the NRA Foundation case the DC AG is more realistic:
https://oag.dc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/NRA-Foundation-Complaint-Redacted.pdf
It could be added to the charitable donation of any money held by the NRA after dissolution. Obviously all this stuff will not happen.
BTW: The stuckee in this debacle is the NRA counsel, John Frazer. Frazer passed the bar exam in 2009, was hired by the NRA in about 2015 and has little experience practicing law. He could be disbarred.
ADDED:
IMO: In his Prayer For Relief in the NRA Foundation case the DC AG is more realistic:
https://oag.dc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/NRA-Foundation-Complaint-Redacted.pdf
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Impose a constructive trust? Are they going to name Lanny Davis or Eric Holder as Trustee? Maybe both in the interests of fairness?
Methinks both AGs have got a tiger by the tail. Timing MAY have been for election damage, but they may have underestimated those in this country that support the 2A, and how their action may mobilize otherwise complacent gun owners to vote for gun rights, even if not members of the NRA.
Like many other organization, the NRA could use a lot of reform. Under WLP, they have become a political organization that basically just wants to sell moar guns to anyone by whatever means. I watched WLP and the NRA say things Obama never actually said to induce panic buying every time there was a mass shooting.... "aww shucks, Obama is coming for your guns now."
Obama never expressed the desire to come after anyone's guns. All he really said was he wanted was background checks to keep the guns out of the hands of the mental ill (Trump overturned that in 2017). I'm no Obama fan, but any organization that has to lie to win favor and gin up sales after a tragedy doesn't deserve my support. I consider myself pro gun, anti NRA.
Obama never expressed the desire to come after anyone's guns. All he really said was he wanted was background checks to keep the guns out of the hands of the mental ill (Trump overturned that in 2017). I'm no Obama fan, but any organization that has to lie to win favor and gin up sales after a tragedy doesn't deserve my support. I consider myself pro gun, anti NRA.
That is, essentially, the narrative given about that situation by the mainstream media, and does not accurately reflect the actual facts.
In 1968 the law set the legal due process requirements for adjudicating someone mentally ill and prohibiting them from possessing firearms.
Regardless of what he said, what the Obama administration did, resulted in an entire group of people being classified as prohibited persons without the due process required by the 1968 law.
What the Trump administration repealed was not any law about mentally ill possessing guns, what was repealed was the Obama administrations rules that deprived people of due process. It wasn't about what the press said it was about.
Since the current NY legal action is calling for dissolution of the NRA (rather than fixing the flaws) I think its not really about what the press says it is, either.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
In both cases, it wasn't one group of people -- it was two.44 AMP said:
The one that got most of the press was recipients of social security who designated someone else to mind their checkbook. The second group, that didn't get much press, was military veterans who (like social security recipients) designated someone to receive their pension checks. Like the Social Security Administration, the Department of Veterans Affairs automatically classified those people as mentally deficient and reported them as such to NICS. The VA's attitude was essentially, "We're the goverment. That's as judicial as you're going to get."
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
j3ffro said:
Get out of here with that revisionist BS. Obama had a long history of anti-gun policy even before he became President including leadership roles in the Joyce Foundation and voting to prosecute Illinois citizens for lawful self-defense.
He proposed not only background checks (which were written so vaguely as to create criminals for common behavior), he proposed bans on semi-automatic firearms, you know - the ones that have been the most popular selling firearms for going on three decades now? Additionally, Trump didn’t “overturn” any ban on the mentally ill being prohibited or not subject to background checks in 2017 or any other year.
As for the NRA or any other pro-RKBA organization, they’ll do just fine without your support.
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The Dep't of Veterans Affairs has long reported veterans having fiduciaries appointed for management of funds to NICS. Yep, when the VA appoints a fiduciary they are still authorized to report the veteran to NICS. That procedure remains in effect.
https://benefits.va.gov/fiduciary/beneficiary.asp
This stuff has been VA policy since the Clinton administration. There have been periods where the VA head refused to report them to NICS. Unsure if the procedure is being applied presently.
The very same US government that requires states to declare persons mentally incompetent by order of a court, board or commission makes different rules for itself and is authorized to trash veterans gun rights using an administrative procedure.
https://benefits.va.gov/fiduciary/beneficiary.asp
This stuff has been VA policy since the Clinton administration. There have been periods where the VA head refused to report them to NICS. Unsure if the procedure is being applied presently.
The very same US government that requires states to declare persons mentally incompetent by order of a court, board or commission makes different rules for itself and is authorized to trash veterans gun rights using an administrative procedure.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I receive a small monthly stipend from the VA for a 10% service-connected disability. In order to start that coming, I had to provide bank account information for them to deposit directly into my account. In practical terms, this seems to pretty effectively moot the problem, since if I were to appoint someone as a fiduciary tomorrow, the VA wouldn't know it. The bank account would still be there, and they could continue sending money to it.
That said, the fact that they still think they can (and should) report people in contravention of the clear language of the law is bothersome.
That said, the fact that they still think they can (and should) report people in contravention of the clear language of the law is bothersome.
In addition to the due process violations already listed, Obama said it was "crazy" that people on the terrorist watch list could buy a gun. The problem was that there is no due process whatsoever who was put on the terrorist watch list. So Obama wanted the government to be able to remove anyone's Second Amendment rights without any due process, or them even being aware that they had been removed.
we're getting a bit off topic here, but this is a point I feel must be clarified.
The govt agencies were not authorized to trash veterans rights (or anyone else's) using administrative procedure.
They DID it, but they weren't authorized to...
The problem was created by the requirement of different agencies to report "mentally ill" people to the NICS, WITHOUT taking into consideration the fact that different agencies use different standards to define "mentally ill" within their organizations. The standard used by the VA and the standard used by Social Security, and the standard used by NICS are all DIFFERENT, and only the NICS one comes from federal law.
Fed law requires INDIVIDUALS to go through hearings and get full due process. VA and SSI do not. Their own internal classification as mentallly ill was reported to the NICS, and NICS having only one "box" to put people in did so, classifying them as prohibited persons, taking other agencies classification at face value and plugging that into their system.
Also, the FBI (NICS) was under no obligation to verify that the VA or SSI or other agency's "mentally ill" classification met the due process requirement in Federal law.
it was a bureaucratic SNAFU that wasn't right, wasn't legal, and I'm sure caused no end of sleepless night s for the the people who put it in place
(sarcasm)The Trump administration stopped that abuse of the system. That's it.
How about you get out of here with your NRA boot licking BS. Of course, you are certainly free to pay for more vacations for more vacations for WLP if you like. It's quite obvious that they do well without my support.
The little bit of irrelevant material you linked to was all stuff from before Obama was elected that shows that he supported gun control. That's a far cry form the BS that was on the NRA site during those years that said "Obama is coming for your guns" after any of the several mass shootings that caused all the rushes on ARs and .22 ammo. Like I said, the only thing that caused panic buying in those cases was WLP and the NRA telling people that he was coming for everyone's guns and them being gullible enough to believe it.
For now. For many years i was a veterans advocate, advising and briefing veterans on the peculiarities and the procedures of the Veterans Administration.
Meanwhile the VA process for reporting Veterans with fiduciaries to NICS remains authorized. Former VA head General Shinseki stopped reporting veterans with fiduciaries to NICS. His replacement resumed. If the administration changes the VA will likely resume their reporting to NICS.
Congress could have outlawed the VA procedure when the Republicans ran everything: They choose not too. i attended a town hall meeting of former US senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma where he promised faithfully to sponsor legislation to outlaw the VA procedure of notifying NICS. Tom Coburn lied. In the end he kowtowed to senator Schumer who voted for something that Oklahoma business leaders wanted.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
j3ffro said:
Again, you are factually incorrect. The link to the ban is from 2013, after he was elected a second time, as is our discussion here of the many problems with the background checks supported by Obama and spearheaded by Biden.
Obama’s anti-gun record as a state politician is offered as evidence that he is in fact a dedicated anti-Second Amendment politician before he had to pretend not to be to get elected. His anti-gun record immediately after being re-elected in 2012 demonstrates that once freed from political constraints, he immediately tried to ban large categories of firearms and impose further restrictions on lawful gun owners.
I didn’t even mention the NRA in my response. I pointed out you were LYING about Obama’s gun control record.
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You should question any source that denies BHO's animus toward the right, even after his campaign "clinging to guns or religion" condescension.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/26/obama-gun-control-deal-aurora
BHO said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/26/obama-gun-control-deal-aurora
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Request granted. The discussion has devolved into name calling, so it's time to call it done.
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