The Militarization of the Police

I didn't start to get mad at the local LEO until they embarked on a campaign to help lobby against my right to carry a concealed weapon. All sorts of LEO from around the area were involved.

I stopped my donations, wrote a few letters and pissed off a few people.

I've had nothing but good experiences with LEO. When I do encounter them, it's because I'd done something wrong. I haven't been a "victim" of a police attack for no reason.

So, far I have not been disrespected by an LEO at all, other than one time while driving down the highway after work a LEO pulled up along side of me and yelled at me until he was red in the face to turn down my "God damn stereo". I have no idea what his problem was because I was driving a 1986 Ford Mustang GT which had an old factory stereo in it that hardly tuned in a station, let alone played it loud enough for him to hear me. I chalked it up to him just getting into an argument with is wife or his boss?

Do I think all cops are good people, hell no.

Do I think most cops are good people, yes. They're people too, with spouses, children, parents.....etc. I know, my father is a retired LEO. So maybe I'm biased.

Having said all of this, I do think their use of force does get out of hand at times. But as someone pointed out to me in another thread about a woman being tasered, I am not qualified to determine what use of force is necessary in any situation. :rolleyes:
 
Most of the nice cops I've met were over 40. A lot of the not so nice ones .were the younger ones. Not sure if thats significant or not, as a rule.
 
ok, i feel it is time to throw this in:

who will be among the next generation of leo, 5-10 years from now?

let me give you a hint: they are currently training in intelligence gathering, urban combat, door-to-door searches, weapons confiscation, and fighting an insurgency.

will these skills be useful in their new line of work after discharge?
 
ok, i feel it is time to throw this in:

who will be among the next generation of leo, 5-10 years from now?

let me give you a hint: they are currently training in intelligence gathering, urban combat, door-to-door searches, weapons confiscation, and fighting an insurgency.

will these skills be useful in their new line of work after discharge?
Click to expand...

Wow
 
ok, i feel it is time to throw this in:

who will be among the next generation of leo, 5-10 years from now?

let me give you a hint: they are currently training in intelligence gathering, urban combat, door-to-door searches, weapons confiscation, and fighting an insurgency.

will these skills be useful in their new line of work after discharge?
__________________
Click to expand...
So, are you saying in the last 100 years we've had no large population of discharged veterans with these same skills and training?
confused.gif
 
TheeBadOne wrote:
So, are you saying in the last 100 years we've had no large population of discharged veterans with these same skills and training?
Click to expand...
Since it's only been the last 20 years that MOUT training has been introduced, yes. That's what he's saying.

In case you weren't aware, it's only been the last 5 years that MOUT training was given to all the grunts. Before this, only the special teams, like rapid deployment, were given that kind of training. If you think otherwise, you've watched Rambo one too many times.
 
1. The Following information is provided for this Program of Instruction.

a. BACKGROUND: This is the third edition of the SPMAGTF(X) MOUT Training POI. This edition incorporates lessons learned, doctrine, and tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs) from various sources applied to close terrain and the urban environment. This manual is an ongoing effort developed to support the Urban Warrior experimentation with input from the Fleet Marine Force (FMF), Special Operations Training Group (SOTG), British Army, and U.S. Army units. It is written with an eye toward providing Marine Corps units with a user friendly, easy reference document for use in a unit training program.

The first two editions of this document were written by SPMAGTF(X) MOUT Instructors to facilitate their ability to teach FMF units in MOUT TTPs and establish a baseline for experimentation. However, once word of this document reached the FMF, many units requested copies to assist in the conduct of their own unit training. Accordingly, this document is greatly expanded and provides lesson plans as well as other administrative and logistics considerations for the implementation of the proposed fourteen training day schedule.

Primarily, this MOUT Training POI, like any good training program, works on several levels – or tiers. The first tier focuses on the squad leader and below. Working and fighting in the urban environment is mentally, morally, and physically demanding. The squad leader, and even team leaders and individual Marines, may find themselves operating as an independent unit, oftentimes cut off in time or space from adjacent and higher level units. As a result, the squad leader is the focus of the majority of this POI and suggested training schedule.

The second tier focuses on the leadership levels of the platoon and higher. For the purpose of the POI, the Leadership Tier includes the platoon sergeant through the company commander. This tier focuses less on individual or unit skills and more on planning and execution considerations which platoon and company leadership must master in order to ensure success in this highly demanding environment. For an initial training block, this information may overwhelm the individual rifleman whose individual team, team, and squad skills are vital to the success of the rifle company. A unit may choose to disseminate this information to lower levels at a later time, as training availability and proper mission analysis may dictate.

The third tier focuses on specialized skills within an infantry battalion. For example, this manual includes a full POI for 0331, 0341, 0351/2, and 8541 MOSs. MOS specific schools or courses can in all likelihood provide these classes, with greater MOS specific credibility than this manual. For example, SOTG may offer an urban sniper course, and the School of Infantry (SOI) may offer urban machine gun leader and urban mortar leader courses.

It is the responsibility of individual units to plan and execute their training. This manual merely offers a starting point, some expertise, and a solid pre-existing plan on which to base a program. Hopefully this manual will spark ideas and assist unit leaders in their ability to execute safe, realistic, life saving training for their units.

b. ORGANIZATION: This manual is divided into eight sections.

(1) Section I contains administrative and logistics notes to assist the individual unit in the planning and execution of their specific training schedules.

(2) Section II contains the classes for tier one instruction, focused at the squad leader and below.

(3) Section III contains classes for tier two - the leadership tier – and focuses on the platoon sergeant through the company commander.

(4) Section IV contains more administrative notes in the form of example tactical decision games (TDGs), and situation and field training exercises.

(5) Section V contains the urban sniper training package.

(6) Section VI contains example mission essential tasks lists for the major subordinate elements of a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) sized MAGTF as well as the mission performance and individual training standards currently in the Marine Corps Orders system that may apply to operation in the urban environment.

(7) Section VII is a glossary of acronyms and terms used throughout this manual.

(8) Section VIII contains a suggested reading list.
Click to expand...
Well, as far as "MOUT" training, you are correct. It is merely an acronym added to a new training program. This program incorporates existing training, and prior training. Yes, I think it is "better" than training in the past, but it's nothing "new" or "radical". Rather, it incorporates several into one program. Talk to some current Service members, they'll tell you the same thing.
 
Trip,

Most of the cops spouting off about gun ownership are in high level administrative roles...they are politicians, not cops and thus follow the party line, or they are gone. They couldn't be farther removed from reality and actual police work. You will hear very few street cops embarking on an anti-weapon crusade. The only people I don't want to have guns are criminals. I actually wish more honest, responsible citizens were armed and carried on a daily basis. A few bad guy bodies as the result of the next car jacking, burglary or rape attempt would go a long way.
 
So, are you saying in the last 100 years we've had no large population of discharged veterans with these same skills and training?
Click to expand...
"In World War II, only one in five soldiers fired their rifles." "By the time of Vietnam, this percentage had been raised to the point where only five percent didn't fire their weapons."

how was this accomplished? simple, training.

up until ww2, target practice consisted of just that, a target. a circle on a piece of paper. in order to create more 'efficient' soldiers, targets were upgraded to human silhouettes. today training consists of reaction type drills where targets pop up interactively. the new training methods work.

check out Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's website: http://www.killology.com/
 
check out Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's website: http://www.killology.com/
Click to expand...

With all due respect to Grossman, bullpucky.

There is nothing in a video game that can prepare someone for a fight or teach them how to use a weapon. You might pick up some principles of tactical movement if you were heavily into online squadbased games, and maybe some flying skills if you were really into simulators.

Otherwise, we'd see the prizewinning counterstrike teams cleaning up at paintball, airsoft, and FoF simunitions, instead of being drubbed soundly each and every time.
 
TBO, my son is a career US Marine. Currently he is TAD to March AFB and is part of a group teaching interservice advanced MOUT classes. I'm well aware of what MOUT is, now, and where and how it started.

Quote all the manuals you want. It won't get you any closer to the facts or the real thing. There's a lot of crap that isn't in the manuals... Well not the ones for public consumption. They do real world training, in real US cities. Not just "pop-ups."
 
If you haven't seen Officer Friendly around, it's probably not because he got another job elsewhere, he was shot in the throat during a traffic stop and was left still alive in the ditch where he later died, unable to get help. Where was the public outcry then?
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Now, the average washougal cop visibly carries two full sized duty pistols, one on the strong side hip, and one on the weak side thigh. No, I am not kidding. Next, recently someone decided that they would go from shotguns to "patrol rifles", which are an AR variant of some sort.
Click to expand...

First of all, the second "pistol" you see is more than likely an M26 Taser.

Second, the transition to the .223 firearm is ongoing in most agencies for a few reasons:

1. More controllable by more officers.
2. Capable of precise, aimed fire because of controllability, thus less likelihood of hitting something you don't want to hit.
3. With the duty ammunition issued, the possibility of overpenetration is reduced.
4. With the increased likelihood of encountering a BG with body armor, more ability to defeat said body armor.
5. More ammunition carried--at least 90 rounds (one mag, and two reloads) as opposed to 13 (full shotgun, cruiser ready, and 6 spare).
6. Much cheaper to train with. $4.00 buys 5 rounds of slugs or 00 buck, or 20 rounds of 5.56 ball, suitable to train with.
7. Easier to maintain.
8. In some configurations, lighter to carry.
9. Easily adaptable to optics that enhance the first round hit.
10. With minimal training, an officer can engage center-mass to 200 yards, and make precise iron-sight shots to 100.

Now, with all that said, there's still a definite place for the shotgun:

1. Adaptable to a wide range of munitions, from bean bag/rubber ball to flares and conventional rounds.

2. For departments with wooded area, (especially here in WA) a good large critter/bear stomper. Our department has a large area of forested land (hunting land) and black bear is very common. When I venture into those areas, the 00 buck comes out, and the 3" magnum slugs goes in.

3. When you absolutely, positively have to stop a motor vehicle. Accept no substitutes! ;)
 
Many officers consider police work "just a job" and nothing more. Not a calling, not a noble pursuit, not an honorable career. The idea of being a part of the community and helping set the standards of the community are gone. For too many it's a numbers game -- how many arrests (good or bad) they've made. How many cars they've searched. How many raids they've been on. Their authority is final and you'll hear them claim they will rationalize their actions after-the-fact to justify a stop, search or other action. These are the ones who advocate getting IDs from victims or reporting parties and running them for wants/warrants.
Click to expand...

I observed exactly this phenomenon 2 years ago, when I attended the police academy in CA. Since moving to Oregon, I've observed a striking difference in the attitudes of LEOs here, as opposed to CA. It mirrors the attitude difference of the populace.
Overall, what I have learned is that blame lies mainly at the feet of our legislators. When picking up your child from school while wearing a multi-tool can make you a felon,(CA law) there's a problem. Bad laws make for bad relations between police and the rest of us. Bad cops excerbate the problem.
When I was a younger, if a kid was caught with a little weed, it got flushed. Now, kids get arrested every week for weed, even in my little podunk town. The war on drugs is destroying our nation. Behind gangs and urban blight, behind scores of poorly thought out laws and ruined lives, behind the corpses of hard-working cops and children, lies the war on drugs. If we can't keep drugs out of prison, how do we propose to keep it off of the streets?
To all those who officers who have responded to this thread, I salute you. Thank you for making an attempt to bridge this ever widening gap between LEO and the rest of the populace. Thank you for your service. It is no less important than that of a soldier.
Nice to see this haasn't degenerated into either a cop-bashing thread, or a citizen-bashing thread.
 
All this for 10 bucks worth of weed.
Click to expand...

If you think of how many people have 10 bucks of weed, it soon turns out to be a huge deal. Part of the problem with the war on drugs is people in this country actually buy and use drugs. It sickens me that we spend millions of dollars investigating and fighting ruthless drug cartels around the world but some people are willing to let people who are associated with the drug trade off scotch-free just because its not a large amount of drugs. Drugs are drugs no matter how much.
 
When I was a younger, if a kid was caught with a little weed, it got flushed. Now, kids get arrested every week for weed, even in my little podunk town.
Click to expand...

In Detroit, the cops will do the same when they catch your kid with a little crack cocaine. Wanna send your kid to the Detroit Public School system?
 
cje1980, you seem concerned about the 'drug problem.' While it is a problem, some of us believe it's been caused by the very organization that we now expect to solve it.
In the early part of the 20th century, despite scenes from western movies that depicted men demanding "whiskey" at bars, hard liquor was less popular than ordinary beer. Beer could be made relatively inexpensively when compared to distilling whiskey, thus it didn't need to be transported long distances.
Then came the 18th Amendment, prohibition and Federal Revenue Officers. All of a sudden, the penalty for making beer was just as severe as for corn liquor and the sheer volume of beer required to get the same effect as a couple of shots of whiskey made hard liquor more economocal to produce and distribute.
When the 21st Amendment was ratified all those "Revenuers" were looking at unemployment until someone came up with the National firearms Act of 1934 which made $50 Thompson submachine guns require a $200 tax stamp for any transfer of ownership. Those "Revenuers" became the BATF and they've done such an exempary job of controlling illegal weapons that later legislators decided to exercise similar control over drugs. Just as the revenue Officers were unable to stamp out alcohol and the BATF has been unable to eliminate unlicensed machine guns, the Drug Enforcement Administration has done nothing more than drive up the price of drugs on the street. As the price has gone up to meet the demand, the supply has also increased and Big Government is to blame.
Unfortunately, if the government were to suddenly drop completely out of all those areas, alcohol, guns and drugs, the swing of the pendulum would be devastating. We have truly 'painted ourselves into a corner.' Only now we find that the corner is already owned by a skunk.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top