I found this. It bears on the subject to some extent and it's a pretty good read too.
Do we have too much respect for the law?
Do we have too much respect for the law?
The Militarization of the Police
- Thread starter redhawk41
- Start date
So LEO's are warriors now, and we "sheep" should just bend over to let the "warriors" do the job. LEO's are not warriors, if you think you are a warrior, join the army, you wanted/hired to do a job, do it, but dont glorify it to yourself that you are some sort of warrior angel to protect society. I dont need you to protect me.
ETCss Phil McCrackin
New member
It is a tragedy of the highest order when an innocent is involved is anything, from a crap speeding ticket, to a felony warrant served to the wrong address. The cops rightfully recieve critisim whenever these happen, and some of the public wails and wrings their hands when they do happen. But how have the police come this far? Was it because the cops all "wannabe military", or was it because it became impossibe to serve a warrant without the suspect and his friends producing all sorts of hardware?
If you haven't seen Officer Friendly around, it's probably not because he got another job elsewhere, he was shot in the throat during a traffic stop and was left still alive in the ditch where he later died, unable to get help. Where was the public outcry then?
If you haven't seen Officer Friendly around, it's probably not because he got another job elsewhere, he was shot in the throat during a traffic stop and was left still alive in the ditch where he later died, unable to get help. Where was the public outcry then?
BreacherUp!
New member
TBO, excellent post.
The concept behind this thinking is that you DO NOT have to be in the military, LE to be a sheep dog. It is a state of mind to each person. If you CCW b/c you want to protect yourself or others, I beleive that equally qualifies you as one the the sheep dogs.
Even if you cannot CCW (b/c your state is run by sheep), you can still have the proper mindset of being a protector, one who will not stand idly by and watch harm done onto fellow people.
To me, that is what this great article is all about. Not what lifestyle/job you pursue.
The concept behind this thinking is that you DO NOT have to be in the military, LE to be a sheep dog. It is a state of mind to each person. If you CCW b/c you want to protect yourself or others, I beleive that equally qualifies you as one the the sheep dogs.
Even if you cannot CCW (b/c your state is run by sheep), you can still have the proper mindset of being a protector, one who will not stand idly by and watch harm done onto fellow people.
To me, that is what this great article is all about. Not what lifestyle/job you pursue.
OK I'm a cop and I'll wade in and toss a few of my thoughts out there.
Before I became a cop I spent 20 years "supporting and defending" the constitution and I believe in preserving our rights, all our rights and for people freely exercising them.
I believe in treating people with as much dignity and respect as they will allow me to. That goes for speeders, dopers and the executive who thinks it's all right to park in the handicap slot while his wife is in the store for just a few minutes. Just as in the use of force, the citizen gets to pick my demeanor.
I disapprove of the bloused trousers, the face masks and missing name tags. If your concerned about the bad guy seeing your face, get off the team.
As for weaponry and equipment, ask yourself what you want me to bring with me if your wife and children are in danger and you can't be there?
There are those who can do nothing but B***h about the JBT's. Please sir, tell me what kind of officer you would be. We'll never really know since you are either not qualified for the job or simply won't do it.
For those who express appreciation for our job (and there are many of you), thank you. We aren't perfect and never will be since a cop is a person who came from the ranks of our countrymen with what we hope is a mind set of service to the community. If he/she is out of line then seek redress through any number of means available, supervisors, elected officials or courts. I and other officers despise the badge heavy or corrupt ones more than you do.
Before I became a cop I spent 20 years "supporting and defending" the constitution and I believe in preserving our rights, all our rights and for people freely exercising them.
I believe in treating people with as much dignity and respect as they will allow me to. That goes for speeders, dopers and the executive who thinks it's all right to park in the handicap slot while his wife is in the store for just a few minutes. Just as in the use of force, the citizen gets to pick my demeanor.
I disapprove of the bloused trousers, the face masks and missing name tags. If your concerned about the bad guy seeing your face, get off the team.
As for weaponry and equipment, ask yourself what you want me to bring with me if your wife and children are in danger and you can't be there?
There are those who can do nothing but B***h about the JBT's. Please sir, tell me what kind of officer you would be. We'll never really know since you are either not qualified for the job or simply won't do it.
For those who express appreciation for our job (and there are many of you), thank you. We aren't perfect and never will be since a cop is a person who came from the ranks of our countrymen with what we hope is a mind set of service to the community. If he/she is out of line then seek redress through any number of means available, supervisors, elected officials or courts. I and other officers despise the badge heavy or corrupt ones more than you do.
Edward429451
Moderator
Whoa. Good post.^
With the exception of one or two specific nameless individuals...I see LEO posts getting more reasonable over time than before and its much encouraging, lemme tell you. My hats off to you guys. Thanks for thinking outside the box. You're a credit to your chosen profession.
With the exception of one or two specific nameless individuals...I see LEO posts getting more reasonable over time than before and its much encouraging, lemme tell you. My hats off to you guys. Thanks for thinking outside the box. You're a credit to your chosen profession.
Why are the police becoming more military? Because the enemy is. Simple. Does that have repercussions for John Q. the good guy? Unfortunately, yes. However, an overzealous INDIVIDUAL tackling a doper, or a group of 20 officers executing orders in an over the top manner by no means equates to "most police." I recently joined the force on a campus. I have never tackled anyone, hit anyone,even raised my voice to anyone. But, according to some, I am nothing more than a wannabe skull-thumper. Thanks, I really do appreciate that.
Now, as a professional, I am sickened when any of my professional collegues does something out of line. It angers me much more than some of the previous posts. Any screw up one officer makes just adds to the negative opinion of all of us. However, as of today, there have been 66 officers killed in the line of duty. (source: www.odmp.org) Slightly more than 1/3 (27) were killed by gunfire. So tell me, you who like to rant about Elian and the like, how many stories about these 66 officers do you know? How many do you care about?
COPS: Let me ask you a simple question. Would you watch a show where a police officer goes up to a window of a speeder, talks to them calmly, hands them a ticket and goes back to his cruiser and continues his patrol? "Duh...yes. COPS is what I base my view of Police Officers on..."
'
Hint: Jump in for a Ride-along program with a local cop. (and let me know if you choose to wear body armor or not)
Now, as a professional, I am sickened when any of my professional collegues does something out of line. It angers me much more than some of the previous posts. Any screw up one officer makes just adds to the negative opinion of all of us. However, as of today, there have been 66 officers killed in the line of duty. (source: www.odmp.org) Slightly more than 1/3 (27) were killed by gunfire. So tell me, you who like to rant about Elian and the like, how many stories about these 66 officers do you know? How many do you care about?
COPS: Let me ask you a simple question. Would you watch a show where a police officer goes up to a window of a speeder, talks to them calmly, hands them a ticket and goes back to his cruiser and continues his patrol? "Duh...yes. COPS is what I base my view of Police Officers on..."
'Hint: Jump in for a Ride-along program with a local cop. (and let me know if you choose to wear body armor or not)
I base my view of cops on the following:
The officer who sat in the car with me right when the ambulance came, drove me to the hospital with it, and sat in a room with me and the doctor while I got the bad news, until my uncle arrived.
My uncle who I knew all my life, who taught me some basic hand to hand defensive skills, and who drove from Knoxville to my town in record speed so that he could pick me up at the hospital after my father died and take me up north where the rest of the family was.
The fat rican state trooper who arrested me for 'menacing' aka defensive brandishing of a .410 shotgun on my own property when I was being threatened by trespassing neighbor boys with clearly visible guns on an ATV. (and there was only me to defend my side of the story)
The juvenile 'probation' officer with gang tattoos who kept telling me I would go to hell (for lying) if I didn't confess to the neighor boys side of the story, to the point where I took my pastor in with me for the last two of the four mandatory visits to keep the high pressure interrogation-confession demands at a minimum.
The polite, cute female investigator who came knocking one day to ask if I had any information on who might have been stealing alcohol from various nearby houses and appreciated my ready memory of the names of the two boys.
The friendly cops who came to check out the suspicious noise we heard when we got back to the house to make sure we didn't have an intruder upstairs.
The few times I've been in a vehicle where the driver got ticketed and the courtesy and professional demeanor exhibited by the troopers involved, no exceptions.
The police officers I see each day around town who return my waves.
Bad cops are bad, good cops are great, and the 'bad apples' encountered left no real emotional impression on me.
The good ones did.
The officer who sat in the car with me right when the ambulance came, drove me to the hospital with it, and sat in a room with me and the doctor while I got the bad news, until my uncle arrived.
My uncle who I knew all my life, who taught me some basic hand to hand defensive skills, and who drove from Knoxville to my town in record speed so that he could pick me up at the hospital after my father died and take me up north where the rest of the family was.
The fat rican state trooper who arrested me for 'menacing' aka defensive brandishing of a .410 shotgun on my own property when I was being threatened by trespassing neighbor boys with clearly visible guns on an ATV. (and there was only me to defend my side of the story)
The juvenile 'probation' officer with gang tattoos who kept telling me I would go to hell (for lying) if I didn't confess to the neighor boys side of the story, to the point where I took my pastor in with me for the last two of the four mandatory visits to keep the high pressure interrogation-confession demands at a minimum.
The polite, cute female investigator who came knocking one day to ask if I had any information on who might have been stealing alcohol from various nearby houses and appreciated my ready memory of the names of the two boys.
The friendly cops who came to check out the suspicious noise we heard when we got back to the house to make sure we didn't have an intruder upstairs.
The few times I've been in a vehicle where the driver got ticketed and the courtesy and professional demeanor exhibited by the troopers involved, no exceptions.
The police officers I see each day around town who return my waves.
Bad cops are bad, good cops are great, and the 'bad apples' encountered left no real emotional impression on me.
The good ones did.
Unfortunatly, this is part of human nature, to remember more of the bad then the good. I myself am guilty of this
.Just curious if anyone has read the decision from the SCOTUS on the RO and the sueing of the police? I just caught a fast news story on it but it seems that the SCOTUS has again stated that it is not the job of the police to enforce an RO. Yet, the states get away with disarming the People, stating that they should leave it up to the police!
Wayne
TheeBadOne
Moderator
The ruling just reinforces a already standing ruling. The Police have no individual duty to protect an individual.
This is in response to people trying to sue "the Police" for being robbed, hit by a drunk driver, assaulted, etc (IE: "where where the Police when this happened!!!).
In the most recent case you cite, a woman applied for a Restraining Order against her husband. The husband picked up their 3 daughters in his truck, killed them, then drove to the PD to get in a shoot out with the Police (all with in 3 hrs).
She sued saying that the restraining order was "property" and that "the Police" are to blame because she had a RO, thus "the Police" should have been able to protect her kids...
This is in response to people trying to sue "the Police" for being robbed, hit by a drunk driver, assaulted, etc (IE: "where where the Police when this happened!!!).
In the most recent case you cite, a woman applied for a Restraining Order against her husband. The husband picked up their 3 daughters in his truck, killed them, then drove to the PD to get in a shoot out with the Police (all with in 3 hrs).
She sued saying that the restraining order was "property" and that "the Police" are to blame because she had a RO, thus "the Police" should have been able to protect her kids...
I've made another interesting observation on this subject.
A good example is the Washougal PD. We do not have the type of Violent crime that you see in LA. Infact, last murder was several years ago, and it was big news around here.
Now, the average washougal cop visibly carries two full sized duty pistols, one on the strong side hip, and one on the weak side thigh. No, I am not kidding. Next, recently someone decided that they would go from shotguns to "patrol rifles", which are an AR variant of some sort.
Vancouver or Portland PD definatly aren't nearly as "tacticool", and yet each of those cities are much much larger than Washougals 10 thousand citizens
Maybe I missed the last full auto shootout here, but yeah.
A good example is the Washougal PD. We do not have the type of Violent crime that you see in LA. Infact, last murder was several years ago, and it was big news around here.
Now, the average washougal cop visibly carries two full sized duty pistols, one on the strong side hip, and one on the weak side thigh. No, I am not kidding. Next, recently someone decided that they would go from shotguns to "patrol rifles", which are an AR variant of some sort.
Vancouver or Portland PD definatly aren't nearly as "tacticool", and yet each of those cities are much much larger than Washougals 10 thousand citizens
Maybe I missed the last full auto shootout here, but yeah.
Face masks are not worn so you can't see the face. When we do drug raids I often take mine off in full view of the target(s) after they are secure. I could care less if they know who I am. We wear masks for two purposes, the most important being that they are made out of nomex and are fire resistant. The use of flashbangs, meth labs, booby traps and any number of things that can flash over make it just common sense to protect as much of your body as possible, including your face. Sorry to all who feel that I should risk having my face melted off so as to not offend anyone with my "black hood". The second reason for wearing a mask is just for the shock value of black clad heavily armored and armed men. Whether you like it or not, overwhelming force saves lives and if done properly the entry/clear/secure cycle on a high risk/no knock warrant is over in less than a minute. Ideally, Mr. Bad Guy doesn't even have a chance to think of going for a weapon. That sounds like a good thing to me.
Someone mentioned that police work is not as dangerous as some other jobs. That is correct. However, you will not be violently assaulted and injured/killed at anywhere near the rate police are. The militarized police/it's not so dangerous debate is nothing new. Is it possible that it's not so dangerous because we have some good gear and training? I guess enough of us will never be killed to make some people happy.
I know a lot of cops. Most of them are good people, some are a-holes. I also know a lot of factory workers. Most of them are good people, some are a-holes.
Steve
Someone mentioned that police work is not as dangerous as some other jobs. That is correct. However, you will not be violently assaulted and injured/killed at anywhere near the rate police are. The militarized police/it's not so dangerous debate is nothing new. Is it possible that it's not so dangerous because we have some good gear and training? I guess enough of us will never be killed to make some people happy.
I know a lot of cops. Most of them are good people, some are a-holes. I also know a lot of factory workers. Most of them are good people, some are a-holes.
Steve
FrankDrebin
Moderator
The black hood thing: For whatever reason some narc guys also do raids....Wheter it's because they don't have the manpower to have a separate entry team or what have you...And sometimes the police actually make buys instead of having an informant do it. Anyway, if you were a guy who made buy/busts in your geographic area, would you want the crackheads and dealers to know what you looked like when you kicked in their door so they could be ready for you next time you tried to buy rock...or a half kilo of dope??
Lion In Winter
New member
I've puzzled on the mask issue for a very long time and have longer behind a gun making entries(in plainclothes.) I see that both sides of this argument are "right".
Having said this, I hope the masked good guys never met an equally committed home defender. Both sides will also then be "dead' right.
Having said this, I hope the masked good guys never met an equally committed home defender. Both sides will also then be "dead' right.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Considering all the guys around here who say they would start shooting cops if they came into their house without a warrant, you'd think you'd see that happen every now and then....Certainly more often than you do in reality. Maybe the speed and intimidation factor really DOES save lives.
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
Steve154 I'd double that bet if I were you. Almost 100% of the time people asking that question have no idea it is a tazer, I can't blame them though because it is new to alot of people and it does have a magazine like apperance on the bottom of it.
Jonathan find out if it truely is another hand-gun if it is then that is ridiculous to have two pistols on their duty belt but most PD's that deploy tazers carry them on the weakside hip in a gun like holster.
Jonathan find out if it truely is another hand-gun if it is then that is ridiculous to have two pistols on their duty belt but most PD's that deploy tazers carry them on the weakside hip in a gun like holster.
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alexbird692001
New member
Wait a second!!!!
Lets not judge until you walk a beat or pullover a car at 3 am. Thanks Joe
Lets not judge until you walk a beat or pullover a car at 3 am. Thanks Joe
