The magic one shot stop

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Super-Dave

New member
Okay please lets not get this thread locked.

I am wanting a serious discussion on this issue.


Now most of us on this site do not put much faith in handgun rounds and the magic "one shot stop". Most of us agree that a bullet must penetrate deep enought to hit something important to do significant damage. Now most of us all agree that there are only 2 reliable ways to quickly incapacitate.

1) The targets bleeds too much and passes out/dies.

2) The target sustains a central nervous system shot and can no longer function.

Now if your target is dangerous and is capable of inflicting serious damage on you, option number one might take too long. could take seconds, miniutes or hours for the target to be incapacitated. This time could result in your death.

Now option number 2 is indeed the most reliable and quickest method for incapacitating the target. Now I know there are stories out there of humans and animals being shot through the brain and are still alive. This can happen but the likely hood is really really low. I figure if a target is shot in the brain and does not die, God dont want them dead yet and no mater what you do wont matter.

Now the real question is this. Since option 2 is the most reliable method of incapacitating the target why isnt the central nervous system and brain the primary target if you have a round capable of penetrating the skull at the intended distance.


It is always taught to make a thorax/center of chest shot. This seems logical if you are using rifle rounds. However with pistol rounds fired from a pistol would not a brain shot be more logical?

If you look at the size of the heart and spinal cord. It seems you have a much bigger target by going for the head.


I know what you are thinking. "Most shots fired in self defens scenarios miss so you are better off aiming for the bigger target the chest"

This is true, but say you do fire 8 shots from your 1911. and 25% of the rounds hits the target in the chest. Thats 2 rounds. So the target is hit with 2 rounds in the chest. Even if you are lucky enough to get a heart shot it could be several miniutes till the target is incapacitated. In that time the target could easily cause serious damage to you.

Now for the above scenario if you aimed at the head and only got one bullet in the head I believe this would increase your chances of stopping the threat.


So in summary if you really want that "magic one shot stop", I belive you should forget thorax shots and go for the head.
 
Last edited:
In much the same way that an aircraft carrier flight deck appears to shrink to the size of a postage stamp when you're actually trying to land on it, the human head (especially on a moving target) gets really small at much beyond handshaking distance.

And even if the target isn't moving, if they instinctively jerk their head to one side when they see the gun coming up, your target gets even smaller. They can't "jerk" their chest out of the way nearly as quickly. Moving your center of mass from a stop with any speed requires the involvement of the legs.

There's nothing wrong with head shots - hence the adage "two in the chest, one in the head", but the chest shots come first.
 
Agreed , but the way I see it is that even if you get the chest shots, It probably want stop them "quick enough".

Where as if you got off 3 shots to the head and one makes it, It might stop them "quick enough"
 
  • Heads are small.
  • Heads move around a lot.
  • Heads are armored and have a rounded surface which helps deflect rounds, even rifle rounds.

An interesting example of the sturdiness of the human skull is Baron Von Richthofen (The Red Baron) who was once hit in the head with a machine gun round during a air-to-air battle. The round was fired from around 300 meters away and was deflected by his skull.

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation history/airplane at war/Red Baron.htm

"The initial diagnosis on reaching hospital was "machinegun (projectile) ricocheting from head". The stay in hospital was uneventful after surgery to ascertain that the bullet had not entered the brain."

He was temporarily paralyzed and blinded but recovered both movement and sight in time to safely land his plane.
 
Now most of us all agree that there are only 2 reliable ways to quickly incapacitate.

1) The targets bleeds too much and passes out/dies.

2) The target sustains a central nervous system shot and can no longer function.
Click to expand...


Well, right from the start, I think that your criteria for incapacitation are a little bit pessimistic. You said that other than a CNS hit, you won't get incapacitation until the target is unconscious or dead. I think that a hit or two center-mass can easily take someone out of the fight even before unconsciousness or death.
 
Like I said before.

If you shoot a target in the head and lives.
God don't want them dead yet so no matter what you do won't matter
 
God don't want them dead yet so no matter what you do won't matter
Click to expand...

God's opinion of my target's worth notwithstanding, if my first shot happens to be a grazing/non-fatal head wound, I'm sure as hell not going to stop shooting.
 
You mentioned that the head presents just a large of a target as the spinal cord and heart, however I feel you failed to mention another important factor. The lungs cover all but the very center of the chest and it's hard to fight someone when you can't breath.
 
Part of the problem here is that there's a paradox at work.

The paradox is that while psychological stops are unreliable they are also the most common method for achieving stops. According to the FBI most stops are psychological, they're not due to actually incapacitating the attacker with gunfire.

Therefore by totally dismissing the unreliable methods for stopping a person the OP also dismissed the method for stopping that is most likely to succeed.

The bottom line is that experts agree that your best chance for stopping an attacker with a handgun is to aim for the middle of the biggest part of the attacker that you can see and shoot until the attack stops.
 
Head shots work great on a square range. Unfortunately, gunfights rarely take place on a square range, and guys don't fight coming head on at you standing straight up like a gingerbread man. The reality is that in a gunfight, you take what you can get, and your best odds are shooting at center mass.
 
Scott said; "In much the same way that an aircraft carrier flight deck appears to shrink to the size of a postage stamp when you're actually trying to land on it."

In a minor thread drift, I disagree. An aircraft carrier deck used to look just lovely to me. Hey, in all that ocean I had found my home away from home! And I snagged it with my hook every time-- except once.

Cordially, Jack
 
It is true that the head is difficult to hit, although it may be the most visible part of the target, and the skull is difficult to pierce due to the projectile glancing off, but there's more. Those things notwithstanding, a blow to the head, either with a bullet or a heavy object, will most often put down the individual almost instantly. It doesn't follow that it will be lethal or have an effect that even lasts a minute but it happens. It can happen with blows to other parts of the body, too, but here we're talking about the head.

Think about it. Many people have literally been knocked down with a blow to the head, myself included. It happens in boxing, hopefully to the other guy, and hunters can sometimes relate similiar happenings with animals they have hit. The animal goes down, then gets up and runs away.

But personally, for defense purposes, this is largely useless information.
 
And I snagged it with my hook every time-- except once.
Click to expand...

And of course it was a hook-skip bolter - low dashpot pressure, right? ;)

"You have to land here, son - this is where the food is!"
-Unknown LSO, after a pilot's sixth bolter.
 
It seems to me most SD scenarios probably happen in less than 5 yards.

If you cant hit a 7" target either moving or stationary at 5 yards or less; then you do not need to be using a pistol.

Or

your pistol really really sucks.

 
It seems to me most SD scenarios probably happen in less than 5 yards.

If you cant hit an 7" target either moving or stationary at 5 yards or less then you do not need to be using a pistol. Or your pistol really really sucks.
Click to expand...

That's your opinion, and that's fine, but I suggest you look up real-world statistics for the frequency of adrenaline-soaked misses at distances significantly less than 15 feet, even among experienced, trained shooters.

If you can find a range that allows it, try running sideways relative to a 7" paper plate on a target and get back to us with your successful hit rate.
 
I am not trying to be sarcastic or arrogant. I just know hitting a 7" target at less than 5 yards is very easy to do.


I have never been in a pistol fight and probably never will, however if the situation ever occcurs and it was less than 5 yards. I am going for a head shot. I will keep firing all 18 rounds until the gun is empty and will not be running in any direction.
 
Well, if you're confident that you're not going to be moving and neither will your target, and you don't think that you'll be adversely affected by the adrenaline rush of being attacked and being forced to try to kill someone, then you've essentially reduced the problem to the equivalent of calm shooting at a paper target. In that case, "spray and pray" to your heart's content.

I hope that your possible shooting scenarios work out that way, but real-life experiences would beg to differ.
 
Real life also shows, not everyone is stoped by being shot in the chest.

In fact many times the attacker once shot goes on to kill the defender.
 
I'd prefer a hit to the chest compared to a missed shot at the head any day of the week.

But if you're going to "move the goalposts" and presume that you'll always be successful in getting at least one non-glancing head shot, then I'll concede that it would probably provide the quickest incapacitation. I just don't accept your premises.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top