the gun you have vs the gun at home

[Chui]

Valid points about dogs, shep.

The energy isn't what does the damage, per se. It's the ability to penetrate skin, muscle, bone and organs. Sectional density and adequate impact velocity to get the projectile through the above mentioned is what does the damage. Yes, ultimately (from a Quantum Physics perspective) it's energy, but the comparison with the baseball isn't a good comparsion since the baseball (which would put you down temporarily) will not penetrate your skin: too much surface area.

 

[shep854]

Chui, you're right. A bullet concentrates the energy onto a much smaller area; hence it penetrates and does its damage. I used the analogy to hopefully help people understand that handguns are not all we want to think they are. And they are very useful, as long as we remain aware of their limitations.

 

[dawg23]

Decide which gun you need. This should be the one you shoot well, that holds a reasonable amount of ammo (you decide what's reasonable) and has a reasonable chance of firing bullets that will penetrate adequately and expand reliably (you define reasonable, adequately and reliably).

Then carry the dang gun. Get a good belt. Get a good holster.

Dress around the gun. Quit wearing the tight tank tops - get a looser fitting patterned shirt.

Quit looking for the "magic solution." You know .......the tiny piece of crap that drops in your shirt pocket. The one that you rationalize carrying by saying you can't conceal a Glock 19 in hot weather. The one you carry 'cause you've been told it will take care oof 90% of the potential threats you my face.

Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.

If I can wear a G19 OWB in south Louisiana, year round, all day, every day.......you can too.

 

[shep854]

Hear, hear, sirrah, hear, hear!! Well said, Dawg23!

"Carry the gun you're gonna wish you had"

That 120mm tank gun loaded with beehive will be kinda hard to cover with my shirt, so I'll continue to be happy with the PF-9 in my pant pocket. Ain't choice grand?

 

[threegun]

Shep, Can't hide a 120MM on my body. Can't even hide my AR which is the gun I wish I had in an armed confrontation. Of the guns I can conceal on my person I carry the one I would be wishing for in a confrontation.

Dawg23 sums up my position in a much more articulate way than I could have ever done. If you disagree thats fine carry your mousegun. However to poke fun at his position, especially with that silly comment is crazy.

 

[shep854]

Threegun, I too am in full agreement with Dawg23's statement, and fully respect each person's choice (even to NOT carry, if they choose). I also believe, though, that we can take issues too seriously, and loose needed perspective. I was poking just as much fun at myself as at anyone else. Like I said, "Ain't choice grand?"

My choice was based on my evaluation of my own situation. Your choice is your own, and is just as good as mine. I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.

 

[threegun]

Shep, Agreed.

I most sincerely hope none of us EVER have to put our individual choice to the test of actual combat.

My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.

 

[primlantah]

My litmus tests for what carry gun is right for me is potentially having to actually fight with the gun. Thats why I won't carry a mouse unless bigger is not possible.

exactly... unless a bigger one is not possible. Some of you prefer uneven jogging with hip or nerve problems from a big gun. some of us prefer a comfortable and relaxing jog without the weight of a heavy chunk of steel itching to rust from sweat. thats the beauty of a small low cost gun... its light, takes less volume, and is cheap/mostly plastic.

A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.

To me a mouse or snub is for 2 legged targets at close distance and not much good elsewhere. Yes, a service will do the job.... but a 380 wont break skin and bone at <21 feet? I mean, arent most gang/mafia shootings done with mouse guns or 22s? I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.

 

[The Tourist]

I have known some unsavory types and the only guns they have ever fired were .32 or less.

At the end of the day, don't you guys really feel that there are "horses for courses"?

"Unsavory types." If I was shooting for money, I'd take my Ruger 22/45 anytime. I've probably fired that pistol more than any other gun I have ever used. I don't think I could miss.

If I was in an IPSC style match utilizing scoring by maximum or minimum calibers, I'd use a Tussey pistol. Those are built to that kind of spec.

Varmint shooting? I have a flat-top with a Shilen barrel.

And truth be told, sometimes if I hear a bump in the night, I take a knife--and I leave the lights off.

But I feel I have to address the OP in somewhat of a traditional manner for the purposes of the thread. To that end, I'd carry a CZ 83. I could sweat on it, drop it, fend off dogs, take on multiple aggressors and not feel a pang when the arresting officer took it as evidence.

I even have a nice comfortable Bianchi holster for it that dates from the late 1970's.

 

[ISC]

I would rather not carry at all than carry a pistol that weighed more than a few ounces. I tried running with my keltec 9mm and it's too uncomfortable. On top of that, I don't see how you can conceal a pistol much bigger than a subcompact in comfortable running clothes when it's in the 90's.

It's not a matter of gut vs gun or not being able to handle the extra load. I ruck with a 60 pound pack about once a week. Running is different though. I have to take a PT test twice a year that counts towards promotion points and plays significantly in the selection for which soldiers get selected for schools. I want to be light and unencombered, and I would love to see how you do that with a .45, spare mag, back up pistol, cell phone, and collapsable baton. Lets be realistic, I've run thousands of miles over the years and the incident I related is the only time I was actually concerned I'd get bitten. A little .22 is plenty for a low scale threat like an over protective and excited dog and many would say even that is overkill.

I'm not saying that I doubt any of the members here that claim to work out while carrying large pistols, I just have never met anyone else in real life during my years as a soldier, collector, or cop that did.

I really think that a blank firing gun would scare off most dogs that are just satisfying their chase instinct and at worst would take a nip at your ankle. I choose not to get nipped and a little .22 served my purpose just fine.

 

[threegun]

ISC, Ditch the spare mag, back up, and baton. Anyway I live in one of the most humid and hot state in the union.....Florida. I can and have jogged while armed with a mid and full sized combat pistols. It isn't hard although carrying a NAA mini revolver is easier. Your choice is to carry small and thats cool. You will only regret that decision if your NAA fails to protect you. Those odds are slim. I just prefer to remove as much regret as possible before an incident.

 

[David Armstrong]

And this fact changes our disagreement how.

It should hopefully clarify it. There are many factors that go into success in a gunfight. Evidence indicates that of those factors caliber is probably the least important. For you to suggest otherwise is a distortion.

You never uttered the words....

So, just like I said, you made something up and then tried to accuse me of saying it. That is, at the least, dishonest. Furthermore it indicates (to me at least) that you cannot reasonably counter what was actually said, otherwise there would be no need to make the stuff up.

...but you are clearly a mousegun fan.

Certainly. Just like I'm a big-bore fan, a full-size fighting gun fan, a medium-caliber fan, a carbine fan, and so on. I am a fan of whatever works. In most DGU situations a mousegun will do that. In other situations a loaded AR-15 with a Remington 870 in support might not be enough. Every carry decision is a compromise, even if it is choosing between a Glock 17 and a Glock 19.

Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.

They don't dictate near as much as they guide. And as I mentioned, we all do that. Some of us have more realistic understanding of the stats and what they mean, some have more information to more accurately do the analysis, and so on. I always find it interesting when people apparently advocate a course of action based on “let’s ignore the facts” and/or “the less I know the better.”

Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.

The lack of relevance is to your (apparent) failure to understand how one processes information. The statistical likelihood of an event occurring is not the sole (or even sometimes the primary) factor in the decision-making process.

Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point.

Now, given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a bigger caliber? That’s my point. Caliber just doesn’t make that much difference; everybody picks a point at which they compromise based on what they perceive as their risk is and how much it costs to relieve that risk to a certain level. If you want to carry a big gun and a major caliber go right ahead, but don’t think that somebody choosing a different point of compromise is going to be impaired in any significant way for the typical DGU.

 

[David Armstrong]

Carry the gun that you're gonna wish you had.

That's a very nice platitude, but one that simply does not work. You compromise on what you carry. As mentioned, I might wish I had an AR, or a shotgun, or a 6" .44 Magnum, depending on the fight. Wishes are nice, but they sometimes run head-on into the wall of reality. You choose to carry a Glock 19. I might argue that is a compromise over the Glock 17, or the Glock 21. I'll assume there is some reason you have made the choice to go with fewer rounds or smaller caliber. Fortunately our choices (compromises) rarely matter in DGU situations.

 

[Chui]

JEESH, RUN AT A HIGH SCHOOL TRACKS AND LEAVE YOUR PISTOLS IN YOUR SAFES. KAPEESH???

I mean, if you weren't accosted yesterday or the day before or the year before that or the decade prior then it CAN'T happen tomorrow, right???

I will go to my grave believing that one should take the pistol that one shoots best (and, NO, I'm not speaking about a Ruger Mk II). If it's a 1911 or a M&P9 or a Glock 19 then for God's sake carry it. If you can't take a defensive pistol class and put 500 rounds through that one day course and you can't shoot 200 rounds at a sitting with it then... why have it? It's not likely that you/me/we will RISE to the occasion. I don't accept that. Not at all. No practice, no results. Little practice, poor results.

A dog doesnt have to be shot and killed if it chases you. A water bottle with ammonia will likely deter a dog.

LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you. And we're not talking about "chasing" you. We should be looking at worst case scenarios. How about being ATTACKED by a dog nearly your own size? An example: When I was a kid I bought myself what we called "a genuine article": a gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier. He weighed about 70 lbs grown but I usually kept him at about 62 lbs by running him on a treadmill and on the road since I ran track and enjoyed running and let's face it: who will try you?? Well our postman (a close friend of the family) was ill and the replacement worker was deathly afraid of dogs. My dog would always bark at the postman even though there was no ill intent. We had the postman give him a vanilla wafer that we kept on the window ledge. But if you don't know dogs and are afraid of them, well, it's all "aggression", right? Well, Nimrod the replacement postal worker pepper sprayed because he was barking at him at the fence. It's a damned good thing I was home because by the time I got outside he had broken through the wires of the chainlink fence large enough to get almost all of his shoulders through and he was trying mightily - to good effect - to get at the terrified postal employee. By the time I grabbed him by essentially "the waist" his shoulders were through... and there would have been HELL to pay had I not gotten there in time. There's no doubt in my mind what would have happened if 62 pounds of lean, motivated Pit Bull got his highly pissed off jaws on that guy. He wet himself. I wanted to beat the Hell out of him but instead called the police.

It may seem "extreme" but feces happens, fellas. You've no idea what's just around the corner and neither do I. But rest assured just as there are predatory humans in this world there are predatory dogs, too. And just because you've not been bitten (yet) does not mean that you'll finish your life without one.

Good "luck" (i.e., Luck = preparation meeting opportunity)

 

[David Armstrong]

LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you.

But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.

 

[primlantah]

We should be looking at worst case scenarios.

Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario.

+1 David Armstrong

 

[The Tourist]

What exactly classifies as a "worst case" scenario.

For example, about one month ago on cable they showed some security camera footage of the Angels and Mongols duking it out in a public gambling casino. One of them pulled a gun, one person was shot to death.

Well, my wife and my SIL like to go to an Indian gaming casino nearby for the afternoons until their roll of pennies is gone. They also have a time-share in Vegas from a deceased uncle.

So, the worst case scenario for my wife is being caught in the crossfire of a national biker gang war.

My wife is a suburban teacher who's never even gotten a parking ticket. She's so squeaky clean I cannot figure out how we got together in the first place.

So let's go to the other extreme. The worst I've seen is pool cues and knives. Got my nose broken twice watching drunken bubbas spit up all over themselves.

By the parameters of the debate, my wife has a greater scenario risk. I'm not sure they sell GE mini-guns to teachers.

 

[Chui]

"LIKELY is the operative word. I wouldn't bet my well being on "likely" and neither should you."

But you do, whether one likes to admit it or not. Most of the time one is betting their well being on "likely". We drive to work because it is "likely" we won't get in a wreck. We go places on vacation because it is "likely" we will have a good time instead of getting mauled by a bear or drown in the lake or whatever. We carry a particular gun/caliber combination because we think it is "likely" to handle our needs.

No, I choose to carry a full sized pistol with at least one magazine... No "mouse guns" here. Yes, it's easier in Michigan - it was probably 45 degrees last night, but I travel home (South Louisiana) during the summer and I work with my father's construction crew while I'm there - with either a full-sized, all steel Gov't Model with two extra magazines or my Smith & Wesson M&P with one extra.

When I'm out in the field I have a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun for curiously aggressive Black Bears.

It's all called COMMON SENSE where I'm from. Your perceptions are obviously different.

Thats the word people! Get your Abrams tanks in case shtf. If your running in the park you might be approached by a band of mercenaries in the worst case scenario.

Yep, it's attitudes like this that catch people wholly unaware and unprepared. "I didn't think it could happen..." Go sing it to a frog.

So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect???

 

[primlantah]

So, why WOULD you even POSSESS a firearm - much less CARRY one if it's not for the scenario that you'd have to use it to full effect??

because the firearms i choose are not for the worst case scenario. I accept there is some possibility... but i wont go for a jog with an ak-74 over my shoulder.

As stated earlier, no one here is saying a mouse gun is better... were saying a mouse gun is a tool for a job that the bigger weapons dont fit in.

you can go secure yourself an attack helicopter incase the neighbor wants your wallet... but my neighbor wouldnt be getting that easy smash and grab with a mouse lodging a little pea in his guts. the pistol is to give an edge when someone doesnt get the idea your dont want to be messed with... not gurantee you can kill 10 armored guys with black rifles.

if you want to talk about preparing for a revolution, your words have merit. Were talking about getting to the mail box.

 

[Mannlicher]

David

Agreed. Mouse guns and minor calibers don't get much respect, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably take care of 95%+ of everything the CCW holder will get involved with.

.....or at least we hope they will.

However, with a lack of dependable data to prove that point, and while the choice of a mouse works for you, it does not work for me.

That said, I don't feel the need to carry a Lupara on a daily basis, but I do draw the line with a J Frame Smith or a compact 9MM semi auto.