I agree that bigger is always better ... but when I take my dog for a walk in my rural peaceful Texas neighborhood in shorts and a t shirt, I'm not strapping on my .45. I slip a Taurus PT25 in my front pocket, 10 rds of .25 HP ... it won't stop an army, but it will deter most local animals ... an annoying whitetail during mating season or a stray coyote ... I'm in far more jeopardy at the mall, and I carry accordingly ..
the gun you have vs the gun at home
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Deaf Smith
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Stopping power roughly follows bore size. Roughly being the operative word as power is a combination of bore size, bullet weight, velocity, bullet construction, and most important, where the shot lands!
As Davis Spauling has wrote, in actual videotaped shootings you can see a definate difference in reaction between lower powered weapons and higher powered ones. The reaction is not huge, but there is a difference.
He also wrote that shot placement is more important than the bore size of the weapon. And that all goes back to Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed). You balance all three.
As for the definition of mouse guns, well we all know farmers don't off mice with .45s or .357s. .22 short or such is used. And thus little guns in .22, .25, and to an extent .32s are 'mouseguns' as for the power they project.
The trouble with such small guns as .25s has to do with a) power, b) miniscule grips, c) lack of any realistic sighting system, d) poor triggers, and e) trigger guards (along with small grips) that make any speed presentation a real iffy thing. Their only advantage being you can hide it well, in fact very well, with little effort.
As Davis Spauling has wrote, in actual videotaped shootings you can see a definate difference in reaction between lower powered weapons and higher powered ones. The reaction is not huge, but there is a difference.
He also wrote that shot placement is more important than the bore size of the weapon. And that all goes back to Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, Speed). You balance all three.
As for the definition of mouse guns, well we all know farmers don't off mice with .45s or .357s. .22 short or such is used. And thus little guns in .22, .25, and to an extent .32s are 'mouseguns' as for the power they project.
The trouble with such small guns as .25s has to do with a) power, b) miniscule grips, c) lack of any realistic sighting system, d) poor triggers, and e) trigger guards (along with small grips) that make any speed presentation a real iffy thing. Their only advantage being you can hide it well, in fact very well, with little effort.
Double Naught Spy
New member
This is one of the justification statements for not adequately being prepared, right? If you thought enough to bring along a pistol, then why did you pick the .22 and not the 50AE...or more realistically, a .380, 9mm, .40, .45, etc.?
Again, there is no way that you can carry even a 9mm in PT shorts and a tank top (what I wear running in the summer here in Florida). That little .22 was even an inconvenience, anything with any weight will throw off your stride and make your shorts start to sag before you break a sweat. I liked the NAA because I could disassemble it after a run and wash the sweat off with HOT water and then reoil it.
I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.
I keep looking for another one, but they're like $250+ for one with a grip holster in .22 mag.
primlantah
New member
+1 ISC
The last thing i want when going for a jog or checking the mail in 90+% humidity and 120 degree heat is an 11+1 45. Thats 0.5-1 pound of ammo plus gun weight all strapped to your side...no good.
the aluminum j-frames are nice but at 15oz empty i still dont want that in my pocket when my clothes start getting heavy from sweat.
I guess internet commandos work out in BDUs. I wear shorts and will usually end up losing the shirt. a gun belt just doesnt work here.
The last thing i want when going for a jog or checking the mail in 90+% humidity and 120 degree heat is an 11+1 45. Thats 0.5-1 pound of ammo plus gun weight all strapped to your side...no good.
the aluminum j-frames are nice but at 15oz empty i still dont want that in my pocket when my clothes start getting heavy from sweat.
I guess internet commandos work out in BDUs. I wear shorts and will usually end up losing the shirt. a gun belt just doesnt work here.
ActivShootr
New member
If you are using the weapon solely for defense against dogs, a .22 is sufficent. A .22 lr hollow point to the head will dispatch just about any dog.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Just like I said--any proof that bigger guns and calibers are better for the typical self defense situation than the smaller guns. Given that mouse guns have been carried a lot over the years, and used a lot, if they were particualrly problematic we should have seen it. We haven't.
Perhaps. Bigger is not better, it is just bigger. A Toyota Corolla gets you to the grocery store jsut as good as a Toyota Camry. Both do the job. Defensive handguns are much the same. If the BG stops, having a bigger gun won't make the BG stop more.
David Armstrong
Moderator
That makes the assumption that the .22 is not adequate. As I so often like to point out, history gives us some pretty good examples to look at. The mousegun calibers have been fine for CCW-type self defense. It is always a compromise, and virtually any gun/caliber combo will be adequate for what we are discussing.
It all comes down to personal choice now doesn't it?
If I was running in the heat I'd keep my fanny pack on and run with my S&W 642 revolver. I'm not totally without hot weather experience. I lived in Texas for 3 years and southern Ohio for 3 years as well. The day I couldn't run with my 38 in a fanny pack is the day I'd give up running. Would I run with any sized gun in my pocket? No.
MY lower limit for personal defense is 38 sp or 9mm. A lot of people agree with me. So what. If you are happy with a smaller gun in a lower caliber than I then more power to you. Carry the 22. Just don't try to tell me carrying a slightly larger gun in hot, humid weather isn't doable or that it will break my stride.
If I was running in the heat I'd keep my fanny pack on and run with my S&W 642 revolver. I'm not totally without hot weather experience. I lived in Texas for 3 years and southern Ohio for 3 years as well. The day I couldn't run with my 38 in a fanny pack is the day I'd give up running. Would I run with any sized gun in my pocket? No.
MY lower limit for personal defense is 38 sp or 9mm. A lot of people agree with me. So what. If you are happy with a smaller gun in a lower caliber than I then more power to you. Carry the 22. Just don't try to tell me carrying a slightly larger gun in hot, humid weather isn't doable or that it will break my stride.
I'm a proponent of overkill in some areas and I like my all steel 5" 1911 or my polymer full size M&P9 pretty much everywhere. I'm not jogging at the moment and I, too, am concerned about dogs, first, and pesky humans, second. Needless to say, running with a 1911 or topped off M&P9 is considerably hefty. What's a sensible guy to do?
Short Background
I am a dog person. I had gamebred Pit Bulls growing up and they are phenomenally stable around people and unexcelled as athletes. American Bulldogs are similar but more protective - and a lot bigger. Since I'm keenly familiar with them I'm also concerned about these (and any Molossid/Mastiff/Bulldog/Bulldog-Terrier breed). Iff (if and only if) the Rottie been seroius about "his business" he'd have had you. I keep the "worst case scenario" spinning around my noggin and a .22LR would only get a good bulldog's attention; essentially letting him know your intentions aren't good and you'd then find out that they give as well as they take. Therefore, the full-size service pistol affection.
May I suggest pepper spray and a good fixed blade (preferable, if legal) or spring-assisted opening knife (if legal). Bear with me because I'm brainstorming this.
I no longer run on the street due to me not having my old high school companion jogging at my side to deal pain to the dog that chooses to engage me so I:
I choose this because I KNOW firsthand what a dog can do and while they usually sense & shirk real danger it's not always the case - and they will whip you if they are determined to get you (assuming it's about 2/3rds your mass and an appropriate breed - Pit Bulls/Am Staffs/American Bulldogs (and the like) and any of their crosses don't require any size guidelines as they seem to deliver punishment by the buckets full and absorb punishment like the proverbial sponge.
And even if you win you're horribly disfigured with possible nerve damage because they WILL get a hold of you. A Rottie will tackle you and then deliver even worse damage than a Pit Bull since he's twice their size. Where I live large breeds are not uncommon and Pit Bull/Pit Bull crosses aren't that rare, either. But keep in mind that it doesn't require a Molosser to inflict horrible damage or death. ANY well-motivated dog can do you in - especially if you panic.
Yes, a .22 LR is better than a popsickle stick, but if you can ride a bicycle (not "as good as" biking, perhaps) or running at a track (very boring if you're interested in mileage). Both are better than jogging through neighborhoods.
Where I am there are coyotes (Ann Arbor) and I'd HATE to be the first adult to be tackled by "Wiley & Co."
"It's just a mangy coyote!" Yeah, but I imagine that if they came for you it wouldn't be nice. So if I am running rural with a ruck I'd definitely have something (short cocabolo club) and a suitable blade and pepper spray. But my M&P with a spare magazine would be on my waist.
Comments?
Short Background
I am a dog person. I had gamebred Pit Bulls growing up and they are phenomenally stable around people and unexcelled as athletes. American Bulldogs are similar but more protective - and a lot bigger. Since I'm keenly familiar with them I'm also concerned about these (and any Molossid/Mastiff/Bulldog/Bulldog-Terrier breed). Iff (if and only if) the Rottie been seroius about "his business" he'd have had you. I keep the "worst case scenario" spinning around my noggin and a .22LR would only get a good bulldog's attention; essentially letting him know your intentions aren't good and you'd then find out that they give as well as they take. Therefore, the full-size service pistol affection.
May I suggest pepper spray and a good fixed blade (preferable, if legal) or spring-assisted opening knife (if legal). Bear with me because I'm brainstorming this.
I no longer run on the street due to me not having my old high school companion jogging at my side to deal pain to the dog that chooses to engage me so I:
- Ride my mountain bike with either my M&P9 or M&P45 in tow and pepper spray and fighting folder in my offside pocket; or
- Run at the local high school track.
I choose this because I KNOW firsthand what a dog can do and while they usually sense & shirk real danger it's not always the case - and they will whip you if they are determined to get you (assuming it's about 2/3rds your mass and an appropriate breed - Pit Bulls/Am Staffs/American Bulldogs (and the like) and any of their crosses don't require any size guidelines as they seem to deliver punishment by the buckets full and absorb punishment like the proverbial sponge.
And even if you win you're horribly disfigured with possible nerve damage because they WILL get a hold of you. A Rottie will tackle you and then deliver even worse damage than a Pit Bull since he's twice their size. Where I live large breeds are not uncommon and Pit Bull/Pit Bull crosses aren't that rare, either. But keep in mind that it doesn't require a Molosser to inflict horrible damage or death. ANY well-motivated dog can do you in - especially if you panic.
Yes, a .22 LR is better than a popsickle stick, but if you can ride a bicycle (not "as good as" biking, perhaps) or running at a track (very boring if you're interested in mileage). Both are better than jogging through neighborhoods.
Where I am there are coyotes (Ann Arbor) and I'd HATE to be the first adult to be tackled by "Wiley & Co."
"It's just a mangy coyote!" Yeah, but I imagine that if they came for you it wouldn't be nice. So if I am running rural with a ruck I'd definitely have something (short cocabolo club) and a suitable blade and pepper spray. But my M&P with a spare magazine would be on my waist.Comments?
Deaf Smith
New member
Tank-tops? Well if your fashon dictates your weapons, then self-defense must be a low priority to. Why not speedos to while you are at it?
Yea you can pack many a good size guns. It's call dropping weight. Dieting. Working out. Getting fit. Or as I've posted on Glocktalk, Gut .vs. Gun.
I used to be 185+ for 5' 8". I'm now 165 for the same height. I workout alot and I fell ten times better. And yes, the size 36 pants lets me carry any Glock made in the summer. And that's wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
I have to talke the APFT for the army twice a year. Back then I had to take it every month. One of the things on the test is a 2 mile run and the only thing that will really prepare you for a running test is running.
I'm not in the shape I used to be and It doesn't hurt my feelings (much) that my run times are up to 15 minutes. I'm 37, I deserve a little break.
I still have to run though in order to prepare for the APFT (promotion points) and when I lead PT sessions full of 19 year old soldiers. I live in a different neighborhood now, but I still worry about dogs more than the 2 legged predators around here. Its funny how much respect one gets in my neighborhood where everyone looks different than me because they see me working out in my driveway or running around the hood.
I haven't been carrying but had a bit of a start the other day when I was running and a BIG black pittbull mix ran straight at his fence when I ran by him and I didn't see him until he hit the fence and started raising Cain. It startled me and made me jump because I wasn't expecting it and could barely see him in the dusk.
That incident made me think about the rottweiler and getting another NAA or possibly a .38 derringer. The downside to the derringer is that the possibility of a warning shot to scare off a dog isn't really there. If it attacks after your warning shot (admittedly unlikely unless it's had specific training) you've got one shot to kill it and no recourse for a kill shot while he's knawing on your kneecap.
I'm not in the shape I used to be and It doesn't hurt my feelings (much) that my run times are up to 15 minutes. I'm 37, I deserve a little break.
I still have to run though in order to prepare for the APFT (promotion points) and when I lead PT sessions full of 19 year old soldiers. I live in a different neighborhood now, but I still worry about dogs more than the 2 legged predators around here. Its funny how much respect one gets in my neighborhood where everyone looks different than me because they see me working out in my driveway or running around the hood.
I haven't been carrying but had a bit of a start the other day when I was running and a BIG black pittbull mix ran straight at his fence when I ran by him and I didn't see him until he hit the fence and started raising Cain. It startled me and made me jump because I wasn't expecting it and could barely see him in the dusk.
That incident made me think about the rottweiler and getting another NAA or possibly a .38 derringer. The downside to the derringer is that the possibility of a warning shot to scare off a dog isn't really there. If it attacks after your warning shot (admittedly unlikely unless it's had specific training) you've got one shot to kill it and no recourse for a kill shot while he's knawing on your kneecap.
Deaf Smith
New member
ISC,
I'm only 53. Work out 5 days a week (and I'm not kidding.) Time to get back into shape before you can't do it.
I'm only 53. Work out 5 days a week (and I'm not kidding.) Time to get back into shape before you can't do it.
David, My success in a gunfight might fall to my cartridges ability of penetrate past bone and skull. That has nothing to do with my ability to put rounds on target or the tactics I use while doing so. For you to continually suggest that "mouseguns" can cause, in equal amounts as bigger bored guns, the blood loss necessary to incapacitate is nuts.
It seems with you that everything revolves around statistics. Still you carry a gun when statistics say you will probably never need one. My adversary may not have gotten your memo that they should give up at the mere sight of any firearm. They may force me to shoot them. They may not give up with the pain. I will agree that at this point I am in deep trouble however having a gun that is harder to shoot, penetrates much less, and who's bullets cause less blood loss is only going to worsen that trouble.
I know a lady who shot and killed a home invader after taking a hit to the arm from a 22lr. One can only speculate what the outcome would have been had the bad guy been armed with a larger caliber considering that the little 22 went through her arm and into the rib cage but failed to break her humerus or puncture her vitals.
David Armstrong
Moderator
And you success in a gun fight might fall to a large number of other issues also.
There is just one problem here, one that is so common with you that I put you on “ignore” for quite a while---I never said that or anything like that. Once again you show that rather than deal with what is said you choose to make something up and then try to blame it on somebody else. Let's try to be honest.
It seems strange to me that you think you can make generalized comments like that about my life based on a relatively few postings on the internet. However, most peoples lives revolve around statistics. I may be a bit more cognizant of that fact, or more willing to admit to it, but each of us every day makes dozens, maybe hundreds, of decisions based on what we think the likely outcome will be.
What has that got to do with anything? It is not a black-white yes-no issue, it is an issue with a lot of gray, cost/benefit analysis, etc. And again, your lack of understanding about statistics is showing. An overall lifetime chance of needing a gun is actually fairly good. The chances of needing to shoot someone with it are much smaller, and that the caliber will play a big part is even smaller.
In some situations it might. In most it won’t. And note that to get to that spot you have already had to deal with three very unlikely events. BTW, penetration is more a factor of bullet design than caliber, and mouseguns do not have to be much harder to shoot, if any.
I know a badguy who took 3 .45 ACP Gold Dots who wasn’t slowed down much, if any. As usual, individual anecdotes don’t mean much of anything. Maybe you should try understanding those statistics.
And this fact changes our disagreement how. These other factors might always be present but the problem of lack of penetration and larger wound channel won't be.
By supporting mouseguns and saying that they are "adequate" you are accepting the known limitations of those guns which are lack of penetration and small wound channel to name a couple. You never uttered the words but you are clearly a mousegun fan.
As you noticed I said "it seems". You have been posting for a couple of years now (that I have been reading)and this has been a common occurrence. Not that its bad mind you just that you seem to allow stats to dictate your actions an awful lot.
The majority of civilians don't carry. Of those who don't only a small percentage have a need for a gun. I agree that the likly hood is even smaller that caliber will play a big part. Since both are unlikely statistically I asked you why do you carry yet feel caliber is not relevant. I think thats a fair question.
Now given the obvious weakness of a serious caliber in stopping a determined attacker, you still feel comfortable with a mouse? Thats my point. You won't risk going unarmed but will risk needing more power at a dire time.
Keep in mind that a motivated dog can:
(A) Move a helluva lot quicker than any human
(B) Dish out tremendous punishment in short order
(C) Hard to hit when they are covering ground as quickly
(D) Absorb a lot of punishment - more, it seems at times than a human
Caliber WILL matter on a large, fast moving, highly motivated dog; just as much as will placement. I don't know how many here work with dogs but they are extremely quick. It boggles the mind to see something the size of a Rottweiler 'drop it in gear' and cover ground at what appears to be twice the rate of a highly trained athlete. IFF (if and only if) it has targeted you as "IT" you'll have only one shot (pun intended) and he's got a hold on you.
I cannot put a large enough exclamation on this: CARRY AN ADEQUATE PISTOL. TRAIN Proper "Point" Shooting as well as Surgical Speed Shooting because that's just what it's going to be (assuming you have a date with a highly motivated Rottie, American Bulldog or German Shepherd).
If you "cannot" deal with this advice then run at a local High School Track.
Pepper spray also works well (iff you are upwind of the beast) - I'd always carry this. It's on my bicycles and I carry it - especially when I choose to go walking. It gives me a less than lethal option.
An aside: Here in SE Michigan an elderly couple was mauled to death by a pack of American Bulldogs. I think it was primarily two but another was involved. Your Derringer/micropistol would not serve you well.
A fighting blade is comforting but you'll take a bite to use it. But you may take a bite anyway...
Good Luck
P.S.
Several support your claim that you cannot run with a pistol in FL in the summer. I disagree: J Frame and fanny pack. I know because I'm from South Louisiana. I ran track in HS and I still jog (though mostly I do track workouts on a track).
As for the "11 + 1 .45 ACP pistol"; well, that's ridiculous. No one advocated a full-sized service pistol...
".22LR in your breast pocket is better than the (I'll say 1911) in the car..." I will call BS on this one. You SHOULD have brought the (I'll say 1911 though it could be the M&P, Glock, Sig, XD...) the PROPER tool for the job and the job is engaging several highly motivated persons or a highly motivated Presa Canario or Fila Brasilero. To me that would be a full-sized pistol and a solid fighting blade on the weak side.
Look, I know everyone is unique and what is "adequate" for some is "too much" for some and "inferior" for others. Carry what you wish. If you're comfortable then go with it. However, expect "heated" discussions as to the logic by others who feel haat micro/mouse pistols have no place in their collections.
(A) Move a helluva lot quicker than any human
(B) Dish out tremendous punishment in short order
(C) Hard to hit when they are covering ground as quickly
(D) Absorb a lot of punishment - more, it seems at times than a human
Caliber WILL matter on a large, fast moving, highly motivated dog; just as much as will placement. I don't know how many here work with dogs but they are extremely quick. It boggles the mind to see something the size of a Rottweiler 'drop it in gear' and cover ground at what appears to be twice the rate of a highly trained athlete. IFF (if and only if) it has targeted you as "IT" you'll have only one shot (pun intended) and he's got a hold on you.
I cannot put a large enough exclamation on this: CARRY AN ADEQUATE PISTOL. TRAIN Proper "Point" Shooting as well as Surgical Speed Shooting because that's just what it's going to be (assuming you have a date with a highly motivated Rottie, American Bulldog or German Shepherd).
If you "cannot" deal with this advice then run at a local High School Track.
Pepper spray also works well (iff you are upwind of the beast) - I'd always carry this. It's on my bicycles and I carry it - especially when I choose to go walking. It gives me a less than lethal option.
An aside: Here in SE Michigan an elderly couple was mauled to death by a pack of American Bulldogs. I think it was primarily two but another was involved. Your Derringer/micropistol would not serve you well.
A fighting blade is comforting but you'll take a bite to use it. But you may take a bite anyway...
Good Luck
P.S.
Several support your claim that you cannot run with a pistol in FL in the summer. I disagree: J Frame and fanny pack. I know because I'm from South Louisiana. I ran track in HS and I still jog (though mostly I do track workouts on a track).
As for the "11 + 1 .45 ACP pistol"; well, that's ridiculous. No one advocated a full-sized service pistol...
".22LR in your breast pocket is better than the (I'll say 1911) in the car..." I will call BS on this one. You SHOULD have brought the (I'll say 1911 though it could be the M&P, Glock, Sig, XD...) the PROPER tool for the job and the job is engaging several highly motivated persons or a highly motivated Presa Canario or Fila Brasilero. To me that would be a full-sized pistol and a solid fighting blade on the weak side.
Look, I know everyone is unique and what is "adequate" for some is "too much" for some and "inferior" for others. Carry what you wish. If you're comfortable then go with it. However, expect "heated" discussions as to the logic by others who feel haat micro/mouse pistols have no place in their collections.
One other point about dogs; I understand that they don't sense pain the way humans do (especially when aroused), and they certainly don't know that they are supposed to flop over when shot. So if the dog is in "fight" mode, don't expect it to stop until it is DEAD, or so many bones have been broken it cannot move, though the fighting breeds are likely to keep trying, so stay out of biting range.
Also, as calibers are discussed, keep firmly in mind that handguns (even the big bores) are WEAK, in the absolute sense. The .45 has about the energy of a pitched baseball.
Also, as calibers are discussed, keep firmly in mind that handguns (even the big bores) are WEAK, in the absolute sense. The .45 has about the energy of a pitched baseball.
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