The First Crack in the Iceberg Of Global Warming...

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With the full understanding that an informed opinion on an issue as convoluted as global warming cannot be reduced to one sentence buzzwords, i'd like to know what statement (if any) best represents his beliefs. I'm interested to know how 'skeptical' global warming skeptics really are.

-An increase in CO2/Methane, and Ozone (not to mention dihydrogen oxide vapor ;)) will have no net effect on the climate

-An increase in CO2 et al will have a direct warming effect on the climate

-Increased CO2 et al is responsible in part for the warming we have seen in the last 50 years

-Increased CO2 et al is primarily responsible for the warming we have seen in the last 50 or so years

-If something is not done soon, we will die!

The evidence seems pretty compelling that anthropogenic contributions to the atmosphere are having a warming effect, and that it is significant enough to be noticeable.

but

The big questions with future implication are the surface/air interactions, and radiative effects of clouds, and I think WA's original article gets at that.
 
Wild, thanks for posting the excerpt.

I try to be topical :D

WE ARE WHO WE ARE, AND THERE IS NOT A DAMB THING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!

WE WILL LIVE OUR INSUGNIFICANT LIVES AND BECOME WORM FOOD. EARTH WILL LIVE ON IN ONE FASHION OR A OTHER!

Bingo, homefires wins.

WildmanyworldsAlaska TM
 
Let me see if I have this right, OUR Gooberment instituted catalytic converters in all new cars which converter the exhaust gases into Sulpher Dixoide. you know. that fart smell cars give off now I think the chemical equation is SO2 or SO3,, I don't remember, my college chemistry well enough, which when combined with rain water creates H2SO4.... Sulphuric acid, Acid Rain!!!. So now we have the Gooberment adding to the problem. Great people to trust to control pollution.
Somehow, I just don't see a Gun Forum solving the earths woes. We can argue about it , discuss it, cuss it, but the bottom line is.... Who is going to care? Certainly nobody in Gooberment. I hate to see us pollute our world and I have no problem with trying to mitigate our pollution. I just don't want the US to think we can solve the problem alone and create programs that stifle us while the rest of the world could give a damn. We as a Country cannot clean up the air in the whole world, much less stop the possibility of warming or cooling.
 
The evidence seems pretty compelling that anthropogenic contributions to the atmosphere are having a warming effect, and that it is significant enough to be noticeable.

The evidence seems pretty compelling that there have been past warming periods not influenced by human beings and they were significant enough to be detectable hundreds and thousands of years later.

But hey; don't say that! In fact we need to suppress the Medieval Warm Period, 'cause it throws a monkey wrench in our funding sources.... er, uh science.
 
If we as a society want to accept major lifestyle changes for the so-called benefit of the environment that's fine, but let's make those decisions based on logic and fact and not the MSM most recent end-of-life-as-we-know-it hypothetical disaster scenario and the spokemen they knight as unchallengable experts on the subject. Al Gore being the most notable example that comes to mind.

Having read the comments in this thread of many who have stated their skepticism regarding the human element in global warming (assuming it actually exists) I will sleep well tonight in the knowledge that others have their bad/junk science detectors on at full power.

I hope it's not too late to keep .gov from doing something silly and life- changing in reaction to this matter. They goober up enough stuff as is.

Here's to all my skeptical twins.

S-

BTW: In case you may think me an enemy of the environment, I recycle, feed the birds, conserve energy, spay and neuter my pets [and all the strays I can catch], garden organically and drive an old car because its fuel efficiency is such that a replacement is not justified environmentally or economically, etc, etc....
 
Now I am not a big time climatologist nor a former vice president who wrote a book using everyone else's data and got an award for it. However, I have yet to be shown the evidence that all these melting glaciers are raising the ocean in some sort of significant amount.

Wild, how many of y'all's seaports are flooding as a result of global warming?

The funny thing about global warming is that it should not be a problem as much as a self correcting problem, if it exists. Global warming starts up, CO2 jumps up and we create a greenhouse effect, putting more moisture into the air that then produces more rain. The combined rain and heat promote plant growth that then drives down the CO2 content and things return as to how we perceived them as being correct.

Will it change things? It could. It would not be near the problem we are making it out to be if we weren't so sold on borders. America's breadbasket maybe dries up, but the Sahara becomes a bonanza. Sure, the snow industry will fail, but the water ski and water sports industry will expand and Wild will be jetskiing every day after work there outside of Anchorage!

Oh wait, scientists don't know if the warmer climate will produce flooding or not. They don't know if it will just mean a much higher humidity in the air as warmer air holds more water.

Yes, some people will die. They always do - mostly because as a giant group, humans are no smarter than ants. We like to think we are far superior to the other animals because with "think," but truth be known, it is something of a joke. Remember as a kid how stupid you thought the ants were because you kicked over their sand mound several times and they just kept rebuilding in the same place? Humans keep building (and doing so knowingly) on faults, under volcanoes, in flood prone areas, and along coast lines where we get hammered by hurricanes and such, and then act all surprised and run around like excited ants after the disaster hits and try to rebuild in the same darned place as fast as possible. Oh sure, we are superior to the other animals.

If global warming does exist and does do us harm, it is only because we are nothing better off than the ants when it comes to controlling the environment, but like the ants, I am sure we will survive.
 
You are behind the times. It is no longer "global warming," it is "Climate Change."

If it is abnormally cold it is climate change.

If there is more rain than last year it is climate change.

If there is a forest fire it is climate change.

If it is 72 degrees and sunny in late May it is climate change.

WE MUST STOP CLIMATE CHANGE!!!
 
Medieval Warming Period

Little Ice Age

Both occurred when man was simply burning wood. Both had huge impacts around the globe.

Like Wall Street the biggest lie in climate science is "This time it is different."
 
This is a great Op-Ed from one of the leading climate scientists. So much for the so-called consensus.

Climate of Fear
Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists into silence.


by RICHARD LINDZEN
Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

There have been repeated claims that this past year's hurricane activity was another sign of human-induced climate change. Everything from the heat wave in Paris to heavy snows in Buffalo has been blamed on people burning gasoline to fuel their cars, and coal and natural gas to heat, cool and electrify their homes. Yet how can a barely discernible, one-degree increase in the recorded global mean temperature since the late 19th century possibly gain public acceptance as the source of recent weather catastrophes? And how can it translate into unlikely claims about future catastrophes?

The answer has much to do with misunderstanding the science of climate, plus a willingness to debase climate science into a triangle of alarmism. Ambiguous scientific statements about climate are hyped by those with a vested interest in alarm, thus raising the political stakes for policy makers who provide funds for more science research to feed more alarm to increase the political stakes. After all, who puts money into science--whether for AIDS, or space, or climate--where there is nothing really alarming? Indeed, the success of climate alarmism can be counted in the increased federal spending on climate research from a few hundred million dollars pre-1990 to $1.7 billion today. It can also be seen in heightened spending on solar, wind, hydrogen, ethanol and clean coal technologies, as well as on other energy-investment decisions.

But there is a more sinister side to this feeding frenzy. Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their grant funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves libeled as industry stooges, scientific hacks or worse. Consequently, lies about climate change gain credence even when they fly in the face of the science that supposedly is their basis.

To understand the misconceptions perpetuated about climate science and the climate of intimidation, one needs to grasp some of the complex underlying scientific issues. First, let's start where there is agreement. The public, press and policy makers have been repeatedly told that three claims have widespread scientific support: Global temperature has risen about a degree since the late 19th century; levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have increased by about 30% over the same period; and CO2 should contribute to future warming. These claims are true. However, what the public fails to grasp is that the claims neither constitute support for alarm nor establish man's responsibility for the small amount of warming that has occurred. In fact, those who make the most outlandish claims of alarm are actually demonstrating skepticism of the very science they say supports them. It isn't just that the alarmists are trumpeting model results that we know must be wrong. It is that they are trumpeting catastrophes that couldn't happen even if the models were right as justifying costly policies to try to prevent global warming.
If the models are correct, global warming reduces the temperature differences between the poles and the equator. When you have less difference in temperature, you have less excitation of extratropical storms, not more. And, in fact, model runs support this conclusion. Alarmists have drawn some support for increased claims of tropical storminess from a casual claim by Sir John Houghton of the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that a warmer world would have more evaporation, with latent heat providing more energy for disturbances. The problem with this is that the ability of evaporation to drive tropical storms relies not only on temperature but humidity as well, and calls for drier, less humid air. Claims for starkly higher temperatures are based upon there being more humidity, not less--hardly a case for more storminess with global warming.

So how is it that we don't have more scientists speaking up about this junk science? It's my belief that many scientists have been cowed not merely by money but by fear. An example: Earlier this year, Texas Rep. Joe Barton issued letters to paleoclimatologist Michael Mann and some of his co-authors seeking the details behind a taxpayer-funded analysis that claimed the 1990s were likely the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year in the last millennium. Mr. Barton's concern was based on the fact that the IPCC had singled out Mr. Mann's work as a means to encourage policy makers to take action. And they did so before his work could be replicated and tested--a task made difficult because Mr. Mann, a key IPCC author, had refused to release the details for analysis. The scientific community's defense of Mr. Mann was, nonetheless, immediate and harsh. The president of the National Academy of Sciences--as well as the American Meteorological Society and the American Geophysical Union--formally protested, saying that Rep. Barton's singling out of a scientist's work smacked of intimidation.

All of which starkly contrasts to the silence of the scientific community when anti-alarmists were in the crosshairs of then-Sen. Al Gore. In 1992, he ran two congressional hearings during which he tried to bully dissenting scientists, including myself, into changing our views and supporting his climate alarmism. Nor did the scientific community complain when Mr. Gore, as vice president, tried to enlist Ted Koppel in a witch hunt to discredit anti-alarmist scientists--a request that Mr. Koppel deemed publicly inappropriate. And they were mum when subsequent articles and books by Ross Gelbspan libelously labeled scientists who differed with Mr. Gore as stooges of the fossil-fuel industry.

Sadly, this is only the tip of a non-melting iceberg. In Europe, Henk Tennekes was dismissed as research director of the Royal Dutch Meteorological Society after questioning the scientific underpinnings of global warming. Aksel Winn-Nielsen, former director of the U.N.'s World Meteorological Organization, was tarred by Bert Bolin, first head of the IPCC, as a tool of the coal industry for questioning climate alarmism. Respected Italian professors Alfonso Sutera and Antonio Speranza disappeared from the debate in 1991, apparently losing climate-research funding for raising questions.

And then there are the peculiar standards in place in scientific journals for articles submitted by those who raise questions about accepted climate wisdom. At Science and Nature, such papers are commonly refused without review as being without interest. However, even when such papers are published, standards shift. When I, with some colleagues at NASA, attempted to determine how clouds behave under varying temperatures, we discovered what we called an "Iris Effect," wherein upper-level cirrus clouds contracted with increased temperature, providing a very strong negative climate feedback sufficient to greatly reduce the response to increasing CO2. Normally, criticism of papers appears in the form of letters to the journal to which the original authors can respond immediately. However, in this case (and others) a flurry of hastily prepared papers appeared, claiming errors in our study, with our responses delayed months and longer. The delay permitted our paper to be commonly referred to as "discredited." Indeed, there is a strange reluctance to actually find out how climate really behaves. In 2003, when the draft of the U.S. National Climate Plan urged a high priority for improving our knowledge of climate sensitivity, the National Research Council instead urged support to look at the impacts of the warming--not whether it would actually happen.

Alarm rather than genuine scientific curiosity, it appears, is essential to maintaining funding. And only the most senior scientists today can stand up against this alarmist gale, and defy the iron triangle of climate scientists, advocates and policymakers.

Mr. Lindzen is Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT.


http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220
 
Redworm give it up. There are way toooo many on this forum that simply think that scientists, aka PhD`s, aka professors, aka employees of so-called socialist, liberal, indoctrination facilities (ie: Yale, MIT, CalTech, Brown, Penn State, etc...) are all pawns in the conspiracy to eliminate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Such a sad state of affairs for the open-mind. It is such a shame to see the scientific method reduced to liberal/conservative rhetoric.

We can take this topic and make it gun related.

How many scientists (PhDs, MDs, etc) currently/recently involved in the gun debate have been caught "fudging" the numbers to support their side? How many have ignored facts that don't support their side? I've dealt with many a scientist who will lie through their teeth on a subject to get a paycheck. They say what plaintiffs want to hear, so they get hired to do the job.

They are all human, and thus motivated by many factors. Most just want to do their job, but some of the ones getting the most acclaim are the ones who are making public stands that the science (whatever the science or subject might be) doesn't support.

Unfortunately, there are politicians who will use these scientists to their advantage. Kyoto is one of the greatest wealth redistribution tools ever designed. It won't make a dent in global warming, as many nations (such as China and India) but it will get the industrialized nations to foot the bill for the "less-developed" world.
 
-If something is not done soon, we will die!

Yes, the sky is falling. Anybody else notice that as the cold war died down the global warming war heated up? I am sure it is just a coincidence. Funny thing, back in the late 70s and early 80s, scientists were saying that we were headed for an ice age.

The big questions with future implication are the surface/air interactions, and radiative effects of clouds, and I think WA's original article gets at that.

Right, climate scientists do a poor job of predicting next week's weather and you think they are going to be accurate in predicting the future years, decades, or longer down the road? They can't even tell you if it will rain more or less with global warming. Some think we will have more rain, but less water.
http://www.livescience.com/environment/051116_water_shortage.html
http://www.livescience.com/environment/070531_gw_rainfall.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/05/040521071805.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/16/highereducation.climatechange

I liked the quote from this last one...
Peter Cox, of the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology in Dorset, said: "This looks like an interesting study. However, the conclusion that Sahellian rainfall will increase under climate change must be considered as highly uncertain. Models differ in their predictions, with about as many showing decreases in rainfall as increases."

It is sort of hard to trust global warming scientists when they are making predictions that don't even agree with one another.
 
The winter we had here in Iowa pretty well blew Global warming out of the water for me. That is when they started calling it "climate change". Duh, the climate changes about every three months!
 
The winter we had here in Iowa pretty well blew Global warming out of the water for me. That is when they started calling it "climate change". Duh, the climate changes about every three months!

There's no doubt that non-seasonal climate change occurs. That's why the Vikings were able to grow crops in Greenland when they had colonies there. The climate allowed for it, and changed later.

Maybe the Viking longboats were actually powered by diesel and they polluted the air so they could grow crops. Who knows.
 
If is can't be measured, it does not exist.

Oh how I wish more people would subscribe to this philosophy.

Yea yea yea...we get it :D

There is no desire by scientists to profit from this. The scientific community as a whole does not just seek out problems in order to secure jobs. You don't get a PhD in any scientific field for the money. It's hard work, a hell of a lot of studying, ridiculously expensive with very little pay in the end. You'd be hard pressed to find any scientists that's going to waste his intellect and knowledge, waste all that time he spent becoming a scientist, just to make up data so he can have a paycheck every month.

The main motivation for any scientists is the science. The science is not biased or political, the science doesn't give a damn what people think of the issue back home.

Yea and I am an accountant and would not do what my client wants because my main motivation is accounting :rolleyes:
 
Trained with Confirmation Bias

It should come as no surprise that scientists might begin their careers with strong social confimation bias. They are the products of immersion in our bastions of liberal, progressive group-think:

from the University of Pennsylvania Law Review; David Mustard; Culture Affects Our Beliefs About Firearms, But Data are Also Important:

When I started my research on guns in 1995, I passionately disliked firearms
and fully accepted the conventional wisdom
that increasing the gunownership
rate would necessarily raise violent crime and accidental
deaths. My views on this subject were formed primarily by media accounts
of firearms, which unknowingly to me systematically emphasized
the costs of firearms while virtually ignoring their benefits. I
thought it obvious that passing laws that permitted law-abiding citizens
to carry concealed weapons would create many problems.


It is now over six years since I became convinced otherwise and concluded that
shall-issue laws—laws that require permits to be granted unless the
applicant has a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness—
reduce violent crime and have no impact on accidental deaths.

He further quotes a fellow researcher Gary Kleck:

....like most academics, I was a
believer in the “anti-gun” thesis,
i.e. the idea th[at] gun availability has a
net positive effect on the frequency and/or seriousness of violent acts. It
seemed then like self-evident common sense which hardly needed to be
empirically tested
.

Both of these researchers began with a confirmation bias; "passionately disliked", "obvious" and "believer" is NOT the language of the scientific method. To their credit, they began to control their bias...well almost. Kleck goes on to admit that only the "most able" could overcome their comfirmation bias, and even then not totally:

Gary Kleck

However, as a modest body of reliable evidence (and
an enormous body of not-so-reliable evidence) accumulated, many of
the most able specialists in this area shifted from the “anti-gun” position
to a more skeptical stance, in which it was negatively argued that the best
available evidence does not convincingly or consistently support the antigun
position. This is not the same as saying we know the anti-gun position
to be wrong

Even when faced with the evidence, and a scientist's understanding of methodology, they clung to their ingrained beliefs.

How many starry-eyed (or ozone-eyed) climate researchers are out there trying to prove "self-evident common sense which hardly needed to be
empirically tested
" ?
 
It's a busness just like any other. There is a huge market for anything "green" and that's what's driving all the hype over global warming. Hybrid cars, solar cells, recycled anything, energy efficent windows, you name it. There are lots of people who care about what impact they have on the planet and there are plenty of companies eager to cater to them. On the plus side it's a market that drives new technology and reduces consumtion so the debate over golbal warmings existance is moot. Would it be better to continue a wasteful and environmentally detrimental lifestyle until the impact is very apparent to even the most staunch naysayers and then start to develope soloutions? Frankly there are too many people that don't give a damn what effect they have on the environment and the rest of us are going to have to pick up the slack for them and maybe save some money on our energy bills in the process.
 
Climate Science is FAR from an absolute science and as such it is incredibly susceptible to skewing by the views of those practicing it. It is nothing like engineering where sound principals exist which can be tested and observed in controlled environments.

For that reason environmentalists are as likely to be tied to a position they believe as any theologian. If you can't prove it it becomes FAITH and you know what happens when we question faith...
 
Efficient and clean manufacturing practices are good manufacturing and good business in the long run. Al Gore buying bogus carbon credits from his own company to offset his private jet while advising other companies to buy carbon credits from him is absolutely bogus hucksterism in the spirit of P.T. Barnum.
 
Sure. And each solid idea holds up until the next one (I'm talking about the "new revelations" that make the news every now and then - I don't give a rats about dinosaurs). The rational scientist can recognise low samples space and massive uncertain. Or he can pass it off to get on TV (not picking on the dinosaur guys - they're not going for a political brass ring so I don't care).
You're confusing the news articles about scientific revelations with actual revelations. I don't see why the way the media reports on science has any bearing on the actual science being done.

There is no scientist working in any field by himself. None. It's a community; science inherently requires peer review.

I think you missed my points - you can take the best ice core samples known to man. The problem is the guy who goes off and calls the CO2 at the south pole dug out of the ice some sort of sample of something to do with the Earth.
There's a very good reason for that. The poles are decidedly reliable ways of examining the planet's atmosphere over long periods of time.

And again, there's no one guy that goes off and makes his assumption. It's an entire community of scientists working independently that examine the evidence over and over and over again, submit their findings for peer review and have to support their conclusions over and over and over again to the rest of the community before anyone can say that the CO2 in that sample is representative of anything at all.

Sure. Pumping gas.

Go sit in with some high-end physicists some time and see what people who take scientific method seriously have to say about the world.

Another factor in here, and it would start to offend people, is the liberal use of the word "Scientist". Not that there aren't very worthy people involved; but there is a distinction between information gathering and integration. Poor choices in the latter can produce very good efforts at being very wrong (my post about "the Jerk" may contain the best information point on this thread). In language we don't really delineate well between the two activities.
No, they would have jobs in their fields. There is plenty of work for climatologists, geologists and a wide variety of other researches without global warming. Y'all seem to think that they're all specifically working on the global warming issue; that's not how it works. These people are workin on examining the world around us in their respective field and then the data leads to the climate change conclusion. In recent years there has been a focus on it because it's such an important issue but that in no way means that these people are just making stuff up to keep their jobs.

Anyone that works within the spectrum of the scientific method is essentially a scientist. To be considered seriously among the community one generally has to be at the doctoral level but there are certainly exceptions.
 
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