The First Crack in the Iceberg Of Global Warming...

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The guy wants your top-notch study on an aerodynamics of a pig because he says they fly out of his a**, who are you to argue when he lists you as a source.
A scientist. Because any aerospace engineer that would lend his name as a source to claim that pigs can fly out of his hindquarters would know full well that there would be a hundred other aerospace engineers - as well as a few proctologists - that could quickly debunk that idea.

That scientists would never be taken seriously again because he grossly violated the ethical principles of the field.

And unlike telling him your technology can be used to fly at 50x the speed of sound (not dwelling on the point that other factors will stop you actually reaching the speed of sound in reality), in this case kicking up a stink will get you fired or get nasty letters from the faithful. No thanks!
Fortunately nasty letters from people that don't really know the subject matter don't tend to mean much to scientists. As for getting fired I'll point out that no one - and I mean no one - gets their PhD for the money. It takes way too many years and way too much money with too few ever making it unto the upper-middle class bracket. You don't get into science for the money. Only a fool would do so and those types of scientists don't last very long because this is the type of work where you have to love the field, you have to love the subject matter so much that you feel a deep need to do it.

It's rarely ever about the money. For those that do strike it rich it's often through some spectacular discovery or even blind luck.
You can see better examples of this with the latest "animal X evolved from the dinosaurs" (note - don't you dare call me a creationist this is an example), or a history channel based on some dude finding a clay fragment of a chamber pot and inferring a whole civilization around it.
"Animal X evolved from the dinosaurs" is one of those things that are supported with mountains of evidence. Just because you only get a few paragraphs in an article doesn't mean that paleontologists just came up with the idea over a weekend.

As for your second point, don't use the history channel as an example. There is no inferring entire civilizations from single clay fragments. Archeology takes years, often a decade or more, to come to conclusions and they do it based on their own mountains of evidence. Just because you're seeing some clever editing of a documentary processed down to 40 minutes for easy consumption doesn't mean you've seen any actual science presented.

You can do the science perfectly on this and hand it off to someone who doesn't know correlation != causality. Then HE can bicker about which one changes direction before the other, and someone else can make a shoddy movie attacking this on an equal premise. Meanwhile, there's a different kind of person, a little more predisposed toward logic and honest representation of scale, who may question what everyone's doing with this crappy sample.
Only it doesn't work that way. One scientists isn't examining these ice cores. Not even one team of scientists nor even one organization. Not even one nation! Various groups of scientists are examining evidence independently, submitting conclusions, taking each others conclusions and testing them, applying their own knowledge and skill sets to uncovering the truth behind the data. This process gets repeated time and time and time and time and time and time and time again until one scientist has looked at dozens, if not hundreds, of core samples and each of those core samples have been examined by dozens, if not hundreds, of scientists.

Then begins the quality control. Then articles are submitted for review and are picked apart by even more scientists not only from within the same field but from other related fields. Then they're picked apart by researchers at other universities, even picked apart by graduate students. The submitted reports are scrutinized and poked and prodded with every conceivable method of testing possible with current technology.

And then, after all that, if the reports haven't been completely debunked by other conflicting reports...then it can be shown to the laymen that don't know correlation != causation yet understand that the scientists presenting them the data do know, and those presenters take that into account when analyzing their data in order to figure out that causation.
And that's how we get into these messes. But in gaining education from it, we can defer the next big hoax/misunderstanding/whatever one would call it.
We get into these messes when the scientific method is thrown out the window. We get into these messes when people come up with conspiracy theories that scientists are just in it for themselves, just trying to suck money out of the research kitty.

Let me make something clear. If global warming was not a problem, every single scientist working on it would still have a job. We would still have people examining the climate. We'd have a lot less of them as there have been a lot of people getting into the relative fields in recent years because it's such a hot topic (no pun intended :p).

But if it weren't a problem those geologists, climatologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, meteorologists and -ologists from every other field would still have other subjects to work on so there is not desire among scientists to exaggerate the problem in order to keep the research money going. It simply doesn't work that way. If a scientist is claiming that the problem is a hell of a lot worse than everyone else thinks it is the most likely reason is that the data he's seen has actually brought him to that conclusion. It's silly to think that he's just making sure he's got job security and absolutely ridiculous to claim that two thousand scientists, most of them completely independent from one another, are all in cahoots to do the same thing.
 
"Animal X evolved from the dinosaurs" is one of those things that are supported with mountains of evidence. Just because you only get a few paragraphs in an article doesn't mean that paleontologists just came up with the idea over a weekend.

Sure. And each solid idea holds up until the next one (I'm talking about the "new revelations" that make the news every now and then - I don't give a rats about dinosaurs). The rational scientist can recognise low samples space and massive uncertain. Or he can pass it off to get on TV (not picking on the dinosaur guys - they're not going for a political brass ring so I don't care).


Only it doesn't work that way. One scientists isn't examining these ice cores. Not even one team of scientists nor even one organization. Not even one nation! Various groups of scientists are examining evidence independently, submitting conclusions, taking each others conclusions and testing them, applying their own knowledge and skill sets to uncovering the truth behind the data. This process gets repeated time and time and time and time and time and time and time again until one scientist has looked at dozens if not hundreds of core samples and each of those core samples have been examined by dozens of not hundreds of scientists.


I think you missed my points - you can take the best ice core samples known to man. The problem is the guy who goes off and calls the CO2 at the south pole dug out of the ice some sort of sample of something to do with the Earth.


But if it weren't a problem those geologists, climatologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, meteorologists and -ologists from every other field would still have other subjects to work.

Sure. Pumping gas.

Go sit in with some high-end physicists some time and see what people who take scientific method seriously have to say about the world.

Another factor in here, and it would start to offend people, is the liberal use of the word "Scientist". Not that there aren't very worthy people involved; but there is a distinction between information gathering and integration. Poor choices in the latter can produce very good efforts at being very wrong (my post about "the Jerk" may contain the best information point on this thread). In language we don't really delineate well between the two activities.
 
Even if man is responsible for global warming, and even if global warming leads to the downfall of the current global ecosystem, I do not believe it should be stopped. It is simply part of the natural order of things. Man has evolved, adapted, and thrive. Our ability to adapt has allowed us to dominate the world. The consequences of this may or may not lead ultimately to the extinction of our species, but it is all part of natural selection.

By this same token, I believe it is wrong, and decided unscientific, for us to attempt to save an endangered species from extinction. If a species cannot successfully compete, then it is, by definition, not as fit as other species and should go extinct. It is silly for us to try to fight evolution.
 
The same people told us years ago that the world has changed magnetic poles every 50 million years or so! Like a spinning top, it flipped north to south as it slowed down. We are supposed to be over due for the event by 30 million years. :eek:

Were all going to DIE, DIE I say!:

Since I will have died in my sleep some 20,000 years before the event, I sleep good tonight!:rolleyes

:http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/04/07/poles.reverse/index.html


Mother Earth will clean her self of the wast! We may be part of it ! If thats the way it is, IT IS! You can't stop the little silver mino from dieing out if it's time comes, You can't stop the Three Toed Sloth from dieing out if it's time comes. It may just be our time!

Why to people think they are so damb special?????????

You can KICK, FUSS, SCREAM, YELL ALL YOU WANT AND IT WILL BE THE WAY IT IS GOING TO BE!

Just chill out and injoy what you have and be happy!

Your all going to die soon enough anyways!

Make the best of what you have and Smile!
 
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Redworm said:
You'd be hard pressed to find any scientists that's going to waste his intellect and knowledge, waste all that time he spent becoming a scientist, just to make up data so he can have a paycheck every month.

...and I give you.....The Tobacco Institute.
 
Sounds like some here subscribe to the "with ALL the hydrocarbons we're pumping into the atmosphere, it just HAS to be causing global warming" theory.

Fact is, no science has proven anything of the sort, but the evidence against man-made warming is mounting steadily.

Figuring out who's right is easy... follow the dollars!

I know quite a number of world-class scientists and most scoff at the idea, but they're afraid to say as much. Call them what you will, but they have families to feed also.
 
You'd be hard pressed to find any scientists that's going to waste his intellect and knowledge, waste all that time he spent becoming a scientist, just to make up data so he can have a paycheck every month.

I've seen them do it for money and glory.
 
Several items of thought that IMO cast serious doubt in global warming. Take them as you will. Of all the "scientific" mumbo jumbo that's splattered all over the internet, magazines, talk shows, etc. I still have unanswered questions.

1. Who's to say what climate is normal?
2. Who's to say that slow, steady climate change if acceptable compared to quick change is better? Maybe mother nature intends to have abrupt changes to cycle out certain species or perform its own "population control".
3. How is it that we own some best cars that are the least offensive on pollution, yet we as America haven't "done our part"? Don't say that we're amongst the highest contributers and care the least. Last time I checked, Honda produces about the cleanest cars around and we soak them up like a sponge. Other countries are doing jack squat compared to us.
4. Why are scientists clamouring over ethanol is the best alternative fuel to use until we come up with a better alternative when using ethanol ultimately is far worse than regular unleaded?
5. First, it was eggs are bad for you. Now, they're the bomb. There's more corruption in science than the mob in the '60's.

Don't ask for links. These questions and assertions are based on independent thought after being shoveled garbage over 30 years. These are my opinions and not one scientist can accurately give a FACTUAL answer. Scientific theories aren't FACTS, they're theories. And that's all they can come up with.

And my real opinion if there's global warming? Well, in the past few years I've seen climates change for the warmer recently, but a few years of "abrupt" change doesn't mean squat to me compared to the entire temperature cycles that the earth has gone through since day one...
 
Redworm give it up. There are way toooo many on this forum that simply think that scientists, aka PhD`s, aka professors, aka employees of so-called socialist, liberal, indoctrination facilities (ie: Yale, MIT, CalTech, Brown, Penn State, etc...) are all pawns in the conspiracy to eliminate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Such a sad state of affairs for the open-mind. It is such a shame to see the scientific method reduced to liberal/conservative rhetoric.



Curiosity yields evolution...satiety yields extinction.
 
If those darn Triceratops and Tyrannosaurs hadn't been driving SUVs, we wouldn't have suffered the first four apocalyptic climate changes.
 
Anyone who doesn't believe that scientists toe an enforced line in regard to the hegemonic paradigm, regardless of the evidence, should read Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Global warming theory is facing a paradigm shift.
 
I still maintain that one large volcano say Manitoba could produce more Co2 then man ever has in on major Fart!:D:D


Co2, H2sO4, Radon and a multitude of other nasty things!

Oil was made by the Earth.

Oil is used by the Earth.

Lead is made by the Earth.

Uranium was made by the Earth.

It's all been here ,will be here and we are just here for the ride.

People need to get over it and just injoy what they have!
 
I’ll believe in global warming when science can explain the fundamental forces of the universe. How ‘bout gravity? Still don’t know what the hell it is. Big bang theory prevailed for a long time; now it’s dark energy/matter and an ever-expanding universe. Go figure.

Climate change on planet Earth has been going on un-interrupted for 4.5 billion (Sagan inflection here) years. The puny attempts of man to influence that in the past 200 years or .0000044% of the time earth has existed seems highly unlikely to me.

BTW: I’m not on a diet. I prefer to call it a quest to limit the extent to which I distort the space-time continuum.
 
Another simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority - the overwhelming majority - of the scientific community (especially in the specific fields devoted to studying this very issue) have a consensus that humanity has a significant impact on the global climate. That is not under debate.

Absolutely false.

There is no consensus amongst "the vast majority" of climatologists regarding global warming.

That statement is just parroting the propaganda that has been trotted out by supporters of the UN Climate Panels garbage study on anthropogenic global warming. It's an attempt by supporters of this report to isolate skeptics in the scientific community and shut off debate.

Many top scientists in the field, such as for example Prof. Lindzen at M.I.T., roundly dispute that there is a significant warming trend underway or that there is a significant anthropogenic component to it. Literally hundreds of climate scientists dissented from the UN's politicized report. Dozens sued to have their names removed from it.
 
Redworm give it up. There are way toooo many on this forum that simply think that scientists, aka PhD`s, aka professors, aka employees of so-called socialist, liberal, indoctrination facilities (ie: Yale, MIT, CalTech, Brown, Penn State, etc...) are all pawns in the conspiracy to eliminate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

See my comments above about Prof. Lindzen at M.I.T.; one of the leading skeptics regarding anthropogenic global warming. He has strongly condemned the orthodoxy that now holds sway over the scientific community regarding global warming and the attempts to silence skeptics.

Frankly, most of the paranoid ranting about conspiracies affecting climate science has come from the supporters of the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis. Virtually any time a climate scientist expresses a skeptical view he or she is immediately accused of being influenced by oil company money.

Such a sad state of affairs for the open-mind. It is such a shame to see the scientific method reduced to liberal/conservative rhetoric.

Sure is. It’s a damn shame that the hard-left socialist political hacks like Al Gore have managed to squelch debate on anthropogenic global warming to the extent that they have.
 
It's called insicurity! They are just plain afraid.


It’s a damn shame that the hard-left socialist political hacks like Al Gore have managed to squelch debate on anthropogenic global warming to the extent that they have.


WE ARE WHO WE ARE, AND THERE IS NOT A DAMB THING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!

WE WILL LIVE OUR INSUGNIFICANT LIVES AND BECOME WORM FOOD. EARTH WILL LIVE ON IN ONE FASHION OR A OTHER!

AT LEAST I WILL DIE WITH MY 10-22 BY MY SIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND MY DOG! IF HE OUT LIVES ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The Facts said:
Redworm give it up. There are way toooo many on this forum that simply think that scientists, aka PhD`s, aka professors, aka employees of so-called socialist, liberal, indoctrination facilities (ie: Yale, MIT, CalTech, Brown, Penn State, etc...) are all pawns in the conspiracy to eliminate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Such a sad state of affairs for the open-mind. It is such a shame to see the scientific method reduced to liberal/conservative rhetoric.

Scientists are not beings of pure light.

They have houses, wives who like new dresses, kids in college. They know who's paying the bills, and they are not in charge.

Some, like journalists, pursue their path because they want to "make a difference". They are drawn to endeavors they tend to believe in. It's human nature, and sometimes it tweaks the scientific method....just a little....just till I need glasses Ma.

The scientists on the Manhattan Project and those who worked for Hitler, had grievous concerns about the end results, but they were the brightest guys of their day and hey.....where the h#ll else could you mess with quantum mechanics? With unlimited funds? And a historical challenge?

Progressives tend to mock belief in the unproven......until it becomes a pet cause.
 
Wild, thanks for posting the excerpt.

However it seems odd that the writers accepted the usual "given" that land temperature measurements are rising. I would think someone in the press would finally consider the fact that most of the land weather stations started out on small grassy airfields surrounded by cows and 'way outside of town. Now these same stations are surrounded by acres of foot thick reinforced concrete runways, tarmac parking lots, interstate highways and heat-island cities.

My own viewpoint it that climatic warming caused civilization not vice versa. With this in mind I felt it was in the best interest of public education to post a link to Wikipedia's Holocene climatic optimum article and a link to this nifty graph: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature.png
 
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