The First Crack in the Iceberg Of Global Warming...

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I will ask this question again and I hope to receive an sincere answer: WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY DO MOST ON THIS FORUM TREAT GW AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND NOT A SCIENTIFIC ISSUE?????????

Most of you have the preconceived notion that GW is a left wing conspiracy to inflict the gospel of environmentalism on the independent-minded. It is unfortunate that many scientists have taken political sides in support of their research. However, climate change and the degree that humans can influence it, has been an area of intense research for decades...long before mainstream media got it`s maggot-ridden meat hooks into it.

As for myself, I cannot and will not say with absolute certainty that human induced climate change is impossible. I have read numerous journal articles and textbooks on the issue for YEARS and throughout all my readings, the only conclusion I can draw is that MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE ON BOTH THE PRO AND CON SIDE. Many well respected scientists have presented HARD TO DISMISS research on both sides. How can we as objective individuals dismiss such research without repeated testing of the proposed hypothesis?

When I was in my 6th grade science class (deja vu :eek:), my teacher would always stress that the lifeforce of science is being open-minded to all possibilities until the rigors of the scientific method proved otherwise. Too many on this forum have chosen to close their mind to a tested scientific hypothesis by allowing their political bias to preclude rational thinking. Most of us have accepted the theory that climate change was a common occurence throughout the last 4.6 billion yrs. However, the mere mentioning of human induced or human influenced climate change and the country is ready to go to civil war.




Curiosity yields evolution...satiety yields extinction.
 
TheFacts, It's the way most human minds work. They decide what they believe first and then they accept or ignore information as necessary to support what they already believe. If you have a good argument against what somebody believes it makes them mad. The better your argument is the madder they get. In the end they usually never change their mind.This is true on most every topic. It's amazing we do as well as we do with this common flaw in the thought process.
 
The facts,

Lets just say I am head of the organization called the WN (World Nations) and that I have systematically sided with evil against good and tried to install myself as world ruler (WN-WR). Then lets say that I saw that I can control everything if I can make any activity harmful, thereby subject to regulation...especially producing anything to support yourself or others. So I as WR come up with a problem and also a cure. The cure is my control of everything, the problem is that anything anyone else does causes a problem that can't be proved, but can be shown on a video game I developed. Of course my cure is that I take your money and control the rest of your life.

And lets say that the cure was in place before I PAID for computer programs that would prove the problem.


Now the final question, do you want to buy into this or be a "flawed denier"?
 
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY DO MOST ON THIS FORUM TREAT GW AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND NOT A SCIENTIFIC ISSUE?????????

Because it is.

No one argues that the the climate is warming or cooling as the case may be. No one argues that humankind, as part of the ecosystem, has an effect, like every other part of the ecosystem.

What makes it political is the
WE...................................................... MUSTDOSOMETHINGNOWOMYGODBEFORETHESEARISESANDICEBERGSMELTFIREANDBRIMSTONEBUSHLIEDWEAREALLGOINGTODIE

screeching, with of course that "something" falling on the heads of certain groups of contributors as opposed to others....some of those "somethings" being of more detriment in the cost/benefit allowance of life than others...and with no proof that "something" will do anything....

And if anyone in this place is the biggest conspiracy skeptic of 'em all it's me

WildwhyisitstillsnowingAlaska TM
 
WildwhyisitstillsnowingAlaska TM
I feel your pain, We are expected to get 10 inches by Saturday morning. And 3 days ago we got 12inches. further North they got just shy of 3 feet. IN APRIL!!!!!!!!! So perhaps some expert can tell me when this GW is supposed to kick in. This has been the coldest winter in 10 years. This whole winter the average temp has been about 10-15 degrees below average. We even broke the record for cold in January. I believe the previuos record was set in the early 70's. IIRC the coldest temp so far this winter was -50* F windchill. It been a few years since we've had temps that low. Not a very time to be preaching about GW.:rolleyes:
 
Snowing here in North-Central Colorado tonight. Up to 12 inches by tomorrow. But climate changes happen over 100's and 1000's of years. Our current pattern matches the past record pretty well. The temperature is never constant and I don't see anything abnormal. But, I am not looking to rule over the means of production.
 
I will ask this question again and I hope to receive an sincere answer: WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY DO MOST ON THIS FORUM TREAT GW AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND NOT A SCIENTIFIC ISSUE?????????
Because it is. Those forwarding the "Man is destroying the world" line seem to always have a solution which includes some sort of wealth redistribution, some scam to generate cash like carbon credits, a vested reputation on the line, and/or research dollars at risk.

These scientists are no different than the Aids scientists looking for funding and vastly overstating the spread of Aids (which came out a couple months ago). From the Al Gore playbook, exaggerate to achieve your goals.
 
There is certainly a scientific underpinning of the global warming theories. However, Al Gore's movie, his push for carbon trading which would accrue to his personal benefit, the push for international treaties that would amount to massive wealth-transfer from modern nations to the backward ones, and the overall tone of cataclysmic alarmism carried by the most vocal advocates of anthropogenic global warming theory, is not about science, it's about politics.

Opposition to or questioning of the discredited Lysenko's pseudo-scientific (at best) notions about inheritance of acquired traits was once a capital crime in the Soviet Union.
 
And wealth transfer is would have happened under Kyoto. Having the US pay other 3rd world countries for the right to use energy that the 3rd world countries would not use anyway does not reduce CO2, but transfers wealth. Eventually we would be forced to reduce energy use because all of our wealth would have been transferred to entities that actually did nothing to earn it. I expect the wealth would be collected by 3rd world tyrants and UN officials. Everyone else would be poor.
 
I will ask this question again and I hope to receive an sincere answer: WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY DO MOST ON THIS FORUM TREAT GW AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND NOT A SCIENTIFIC ISSUE?????????
I remember back in the 70's, (Don't laugh), the news was all about the coming ice age. I don't see a lot of evidence where I live about global warming. Lost a lot of plants this winter. Having less and less storms. Given that plus the gent that started the weather channel wants to sue Al Gore for proof on global warming, kinda makes me wonder.
 
Of course it is entirely possible that if global warming is occurring the cause could be the cleaner burning fuels that the greenies have been demanding for the last three decades. I find it entirely plausible that we could actually be causing global warming by our emphasis on clean burning fuels which reduce the amount of aerosolized particles in the atmosphere, thus diminishing cloud formation...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410140531.htm
 
Do you listen to Rush Limbaugh or NPR? Rush has a thousand sarcastic and condesending ways to trash the whole global warming idea. NPR keeps on churning out the stories of climates in peril and what you can do to stop it. I listen to both and trust neither. As far as I'm concerned anyone who seats themself firmly on the far right or left is a brainwashed idiot. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It's not as bad as the leftist regulation junkies would have you believe but the fat arsed right with their SUV's and ideas that Jesus will come back and fix everything aren't helping either. I choose to er on the side of what's best for the environment but I don't get all worked up over spotted owls or maximum mpg's. There is a lot of truth in the science but some of it has certianly been corrupted for the interests of certian groups. The naysayers have their own motives as well and it ain't what's best for the earth. What moutianclimber said is the most truth I have seen in all 15 pages so far. With hysteria comes regulation. With regulation comes power. With power comes politics. With politics comes regulation. With election comes rinse and repeat.
 
You think there's a vast majority of scientists that have empirical evidence of abrupt climate change causing GW

I think there are several scientists that debunk the theory of GW and whatever climate change there is, it's natural. Humans are only a very small part of the actual change.
We may have different definitions of the word "several" but when the majority say one thing and a small minority say another I'm more apt to use the phrase "a few".

It has nothing to do with scientific opinion. At that day and age, people weren't nearly as far along in the amount of intelligence in science. The best information they could go on was people sailed away and never came back, etc. in a sense. So, you have to place yourself in that frame of mind. They weren't investigating correctly to find the right answer.
Right, and that's not science. Hence, there was no scientific opinion that the world was flat.
Fast forward to 400 years from now. Those that are on this earth is going to be laughing at the so called "evidence" and scientific findings we generated. They will most likely see that some scientists had it all/mostly wrong due to some key factors that have been overlooked. So, you can say all you want that there's all this evidence pointing to GW and you believe the consensus. Just because there may be smoke doesn't mean there's fire.
Little bit more than 400 years. :p They knew the world was round long before Columbus made his historic voyage.

Just because it may be disproven in the future with new evidence doesn't mean we should simply sit on our laurels and wait for that future society to come up with better tools. Guess what: finding that conflicting evidence would require a continuation of research. No one is suggesting the book be closed, that research should be stopped and all future decisions based on current data.

If there's a particular type of smoke coming from a heavily wooded and extremely dry area known for wildfires and with a penchant for attracting pyromaniac teenagers then chances are it's a fire. Maybe not but all the evidence is pointing toward fire.
Touche. I'm leaning towards the "drops" while your leaning towards the "ocean".
Well...yeah. :confused: That's how it should be. Keep researching those drops and see if they either fall in line with the ocean or start to amass into a larger body of water but you don't simply ignore the ocean for the drops.
Last time I checked, odds are just that...odds. You're relying on sheer number of scientists' similar opinions and you automatically scoff at others that don't just because it doesn't fit into the empirical evidence category. Not one item of stats that members brought up to you was credited for any valid points whatsoever. So, my thinking is that you automatically discredit any finding those scientists without reasonable thought. Doesn't agree with IPCC's report? Isn't any good...
If it doesn't fit into the empirical evidence category, it's not science and thus doesn't matter.

Why should I credit anyone's information? I'm not a climatologist, I don't have the authority to speak on this subject and neither does anyone else in the thread. The climatologists and geologists and meteorologists and biophysicists and other people that are actually working on these issues are the ones to listen to. They're the ones that are responsible for debunking or supporting the stuff that's been posted.

What do you expect me to do?
Yep. Kinda figured it doesn't matter what you say, Ken. It's only anecdotal evidence anyway. One another note, we in the midwest have had quite the long, cold snowy winter here. Even colder than Alaska (Anchorage, anyway). But, what am I to say. We haven't had record breaking cold nor hot days in some time in my own little world of the Quad Cities...
I live north of Chicago so I know what the weather's been like. Yet our weather doesn't mean jack squat when compared to the climate as a whole. You're right, it doesn't matter what he says. Anecdotal evidence is not science.
No need to tell me that it doesn't parallel to science.
Well good, because if you actually think it does parallel to science then I've failed in explaining what science is. :o
And neither does ocean salinity, sea level changes, etc. It all goes back to the point of no one knows what state the earth is supposed to be. People die. Species become extinct. How rapid or slow it happens isn't our say. That's the bottom line. Changing our pollution rate isn't going to do a dang thing. It would be just like the commercial where the dam inspector puts his chewing gum on the leaking crack.
Yes, we have a damn good idea what the state of the earth is supposed to be. That you don't agree with it doesn't mean no one knows. Changing our pollution rate will most certainly do a damn thing.
Yes, Redworm, it is that simple. I've NEVER argued on how it works, only proving THAT IT'S THERE AND WILL BE THERE.
And that's not the theory of gravity. You're not proving that it will always be there because you're not offering any information on how it works. Do you know how gravity works at the event horizon of a singularity? Do you know how gravity works at the quantum level? Do you know how gravity will be affected if the universe continues to expand, do you know it will be affected if the universe stops expanding and returns to a single point?

You didn't prove gravity will always be here. You gave an example of how it works on Earth. That's it. What you did isn't science and thus my point stands that in science nothing can ever be truly "proven".
So, forensic science doesn't go hand in hand with scientific studies and methods...hmmm...and laws of motion and all that jazz isn't used for evidence either? Hmmmm....
Perhaps you misread me. Of course forensic science is used as evidence but that doesn't mean the standards in law are used in science.
Hey, all I'm pointing out is the obvious. And, how nice of you to all of a sudden able to post a subject matter pertaining to your Kimber. Last I checked, I also suggested posting in another forum. What you did was hijacking a thread. You know, for one to imply that I know so little on scientific methods one sure doesn't know about this board. Makes me really wonder why a board with forums dedicated to firearms so much has some that are only making themselves so available to GW?
I'm pretty sure you can find me posting about a wide variety of other political topics, not just global warming. :confused:

But again, I don't really care what you think about my lack of posting about firearms. If it makes you happy to point out the obvious, be my guest. :cool: I hope it satisfied you in some fashion.
No, you don't. Helpful, sometimes. Needed? No.
Yes, you do because if you're not using facts to support your argument then you're arguing purely on emotion and conjecture.
Learned that I'm still an ignorant knuckle-dragging hillbilly that's too stupid to read on GW evidence and should eat...no, not eat....no, eat eggs. Now, where's my new issue of Time?
You'll notice that I've not called you that but if you insist on doing so yourself I'm not gonna stop you. The world does need fewer knuckle-dragging hillbillies but I think even the most back-asswards of rednecks can be taught the basics of the scientific method. :cool:
 
So they have a degree! What does that mean? There family had money to send them to a academia institution?
It means they put years of work and study into learning about their selected field.
I know people that can out wit, out test, out smart most college grades that did not complete high school.
That would depend on the subject at hand. Some people don't care about aerospace engineering yet those that do would probably fail a test about agricultural science.
If I remember right, Einstein did not complete school.
He had a doctoral degree in physics. He left high school early to enroll in college.
 
Some of the really extreme enviro groups have calculated the optimum population of earth is 300 million. No word yet on what they want to do with the remaining 5 billion 700 million useless eaters.

Why not just shoot a live virus in their arm and tell 'em it's for their own benefit. Oh, wait, we already do that.
 
A letter to IPCC. Since this does not agree with socialist politics, don't expect to see it on the nightly news.

14 April 2008


Dear Dr. Pachauri and others associated with IPCC:


We are writing to you and others associated with the IPCC position – that man’s CO2 is a driver of global warming and climate change – to ask that you now in view of the evidence retract support from the current IPCC position [as in footnote 1] and admit that there is no observational evidence in measured data going back 22,000 years or even millions of years that CO2 levels (whether from man or nature) have driven or are driving world temperatures or climate change. If you believe there is evidence of the CO2 driver theory in the available data please present a graph of it.


We draw your attention to three observational refutations of the IPCC position (and note there are more). Ice-core data from the ACIA (Arctic Climate Impact Assessment) shows that temperatures have fallen since around 4,000 years ago (the Bronze Age Climate Optimum) while CO2 levels have risen, yet this graphical data was not included in the IPCC Summary for Policymakers (Fig. SPM1 Feb07) which graphed the CO2 rise.

More recent data shows that in the opposite sense to IPCC predictions world temperatures have not risen and indeed have fallen over the past 10 years while CO2 levels have risen dramatically.


The up-dated temperature measurements have been released by the NASA’s Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) [1] as well as by the UK’s Hadley Climate Research Unit (Temperature v. 3, variance adjusted - Hadley CRUT3v) [2]. In parallel, readings of atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have been released by the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii [3]. They have been combined in graphical form by Joe D’Aleo [4], and are shown below.

See source article for Graph.

These latest temperature readings represent averages of records obtained from standardized meteorological stations from around the planet, located in both urban as well as rural settings. They are augmented by satellite data, now generally accepted as ultimately authoritative, since they have a global footprint and are not easily vulnerable to manipulation nor observer error. What is also clear from the graphs is that average global temperatures have been in stasis for almost a decade, and may now even be falling.


A third important observation is that contrary to the CO2 driver theory, temperatures in the upper troposphere (where most jets fly) have fallen over the past two decades. [Footnote 2]


IPCC policy is already leading to economic and unintended environmental damage. Specifically the policy of burning food - maize as biofuel - has contributed to sharp rises in food prices which are causing great hardship in many countries and is also now leading to increased deforestation in Brazil, Malaysia, Indonesia, Togo, Cambodia, Nigeria, Burundi, Sri Lanka, Benin and Uganda for cultivation of crops [5].


Given the economic devastation that is already happening and which is now widely recognised will continue to flow from this policy, what possible justification can there be for its retention?


We ask you and all those whose names are associated with IPCC policy to accept the scientific observations and renounce current IPCC policy.


Yours sincerely,

Hans Schreuder, Analytical Chemist, mMensa, hans@tech-know.eu
Piers Corbyn, Astrophysicist UK, Dir. WeatherAction.com, piers@weatheraction.com Dr Don Parkes, Prof. Em. Human Ecology, Australia, dnp@networksmm.com.au Svend Hendriksen, Nobel Peace Prize 1988 (shared), Greenland, hendriksen@greennet.gl
Cc: IPCC's yu.izrael@g23.relcom.ru christy@nsstc.uah.edu spencer@nsstc.uah.edu dy.pitman@gmail.com
Tim Yeo MP (Chairman Environmental Audit Committee) Lord Martin Rees (President Royal Society)
Gordon Brown MP David Cameron MP Nick Glegg MP


Footnote 1: Two heavily publicised quotations which emerged from your organisation, respectively in February and December last year, are:


Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations. It is likely that there has been significant anthropogenic warming over the past 50 years averaged over each continent (except Antarctica) (Figure SPM.4).{2.4} [6] and

The 2007 IPCC report, compiled by several hundred climate scientists, has unequivocally concluded that our climate is warming rapidly, and that we are now at least 90% certain that this is mostly due to human activities. The amount of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere now far exceeds the natural range of the past 650,000 years, and it is rising very quickly due to human activity. If this trend is not halted soon, many millions of people will be at risk from extreme events such as heat waves, drought, floods and storms, our coasts and cities will be threatened by rising sea levels, and many ecosystems, plants and animal species will be in serious danger of extinction. (Summary statement, Bali Conference.) [7].


Footnote 2: "Data over the past two decades indicates that temperatures have actually declined in the upper troposphere, even though there has been some minor upward trends in temperature at sea level and lower altitudes. This completely contradicts conventional global warming models. Before we radically rearrange the political economy of the world because some scientists claim anthropogenic CO2 is the cause of climate change, it might be worthwhile for anyone taking a position on the topic to consider whether or not this is indeed "well settled science." Dr. Richard Lindzen, MIT, March 2008.


References:

1. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/msu.html
2. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature
3. http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/
4. http://icecap.us/index.php/go/experts Joseph D’Aleo, Certified Consultant Meteorologist,
Fellow of the American Meteorological Society (AMS), Executive Director Icecap.us
5. http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0801.htm
6. http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr_spm.pdf
7. http://www.climate.unsw.edu.au/bali/
For those interested, Hendriksen was once part of the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces, which collectively received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988.
 
Yes, we have a damn good idea what the state of the earth is supposed to be. That you don't agree with it doesn't mean no one knows. Changing our pollution rate will most certainly do a damn thing.

I have to disagree with you on this point. The "state of the Earth" concept is based on what is considered to be a "normal" state (ie: 25 deg Celcius @ 1000 millibars). In terms of our 4.6 billion year history, STP (standard temp and pressure) has fluctuated. Now, if you are referring to the "state of the Earth" as being conducive to human habitation, then an ideal state (STP) would be the point of reference.

Normalization of climate conditions is only based on satisfactory conditions for human life and is not indicative of our planet`s history.



Curiosity yields evolution...satiety yields extinction.
 
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