The Ferguson, MO Police Shooting

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I really don't want to breathe that stuff in, and I haven't done anything...nuts to that--I'm throwing it back.
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You just did something. Not wanting to breathe it doesn't mean you have to, or even GET to throw it back. All those people hit by ricochets and shrapnel in that New York shooting didn't get to start blasting away at police because they were hit while not doing anything.

I suspect that the truth will fall somewhere in the middle.
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This sounds pretty much like the definition of the Gray Fallacy
 
Tom Servo said:
Yes they are, but the police are responding to the looters by punishing peaceful protesters and journalists. That's the first problem.

The second is the way they're responding. I have yet to see the faces of any of the responding officers. Everybody's in facemasks and ninja gear, waving around military equipment. That has an effect on perception, and it can be perceived as a threat.

I wonder if a few local cops known to the community might have been more reassuring, and if that wouldn't have been a much better course.
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The first problem is only partly true. There have been incidents where protesters and journalists have been subject to unnecessary or unreasonable force. At the same time, if you are in the immediate vicinity of rioters, it's unreasonable to expect the police to walk out, determine all the people in the crowd who are legitimate protesters or journalists, and then gas everybody BUT them.

And that also tells you something about the second point. For one, I've seen plenty of pictures of police in Ferguson with their faces plainly showing, so just on its face, that's wrong. But when riot police use tear gas, there is an obvious reason why they may have masks covering their faces.

As to the last point, the antagonistic relationship between the community and the local PD is a major factor in the whole situation, so I am not seeing how the local community seeing the local cops they already hate would calm anyone down.

Tom Servo said:
It depends on how we define rowdy.

An agitated and angry crowd is a fickle thing, and it's easily provoked. A visible show of force (potential or real) is going to do just that. A line of guys dressed like soldiers and pointing rifles at folks is going to be perceived as a challenge. Members of the crowd are going to perceive their presence as an escalation.

The police responded to a few bad actors with indiscriminate force against everybody. That doesn't make things calmer.
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So how do you think police should respond to being pelted by rocks, bottles, Molotov cocktails, and gunfire by people in an angry mob? I think they've wavered between an initial overreaction, then to under-reacting, and back and forth without every quite coming up with the right response to the situation at the present time.

Tom Servo said:
BarryLee said:
The few nights they didn’t respond innocent people had their businesses looted and burned. When they do respond some innocent people get tear gassed.
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But I won't take that trade. Under no circumstances can we justify gassing or tazing people who aren't breaking the law.
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I actually do respect that opinion, but at the same time I am reasonably sure the people who had their livelihoods feloniously burned to the ground while the police stood by because they didn't want to CS the crowd probably feel otherwise.
 
Mainah said:
Although we don't know if that video has been edited yet, and the local police later admitted that the officer who fired the fatal shots was not aware of that crime when he encountered and then engaged the victim.
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Although we know, days after the fact, that the officer did not know when he encountered Brown that Brown was suspected of robbing a nearby store, we can easily and probably fairly accurately surmise that Brown didn't know the officer didn't know. That makes this a case in which two negatives DO add up to a positive -- Brown reacted incredibly excessively if the whole incident revolved around the officer telling him not to walk in the middle of the street. However, if he had just robbed a store, his reaction when approached by a police officer would naturally have been to assume that he had been "made." He responded accordingly.
 
I had a thought last night while watching the MO Governor demand a prosecution, then news clips of the protesters demanding it also.

What would happen if Officer Wilson appeared at the protests, walked into the street and with a blow horn turned himself in?

Would the mob overtake him and kill him?
Would the mob be so stunned they did nothing?

It seems dangerous, but it also seems that Officer Wilson, a single man, could end the rioting.

I don't know, just a thought.

Carry on.
 
Not all rioting stems from frustration. Joyous celebration can also lead to rioting. The officer turning himself in to the mob, would not have a good outcome either way. In my opinion anyways.
 
What would happen if Officer Wilson appeared at the protests, walked into the street and with a blow horn turned himself in?
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Turned himself in for what? As far as I know there's no warrant, no summons, no indictment yet. I would assume he's got a security detail of some kind at the point who could easily arrest him the moment there were. He may not be in jail, but if what I imagine what is his current situation is correct, I'd be hard pressed to differentiate it from in custody.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Although we know, days after the fact, that the officer did not know when he encountered Brown that Brown was suspected of robbing a nearby store, we can easily and probably fairly accurately surmise that Brown didn't know the officer didn't know. That makes this a case in which two negatives DO add up to a positive -- Brown reacted incredibly excessively if the whole incident revolved around the officer telling him not to walk in the middle of the street. However, if he had just robbed a store, his reaction when approached by a police officer would naturally have been to assume that he had been "made." He responded accordingly.
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Actually, the last I heard was that the officer did not INITIALLY know about the robbery when he told them to get out of the street but he was still in his car at that point. The call then (very shortly after he initiated contact) came over the radio about the robbery, at which point the officer attempted to exit his vehicle and was attacked by Brown.

As everything else about this case, I don't know how we'd know if that's correct or not at this point.
 
It has now apparently been confirmed that the officer involved suffered a fractured "orbital socket" (that's the bones around the eyeball) in the incident.
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That indicates a fairly severe head injury. Severe concussions can cause paranoia and significant sensory impairment among many other things. If I was on a jury that would limit the "reasonable person" standard I applied to the officers actions after the injury if conduct preceding the injury was reasonable.
 
Maybe "turned himself in" was the wrong term.

More like "presented himself to the protesters".

Would they lynch him? Would it stop the riots if Officer Wilson showed up and said "Here I am, I stand by the fact that I was defending myself. Now what?"

Would they lynch him, or would it diffuse the situation?

Thinking through my keyboard. If that action diffused the situation, wouldn't Officer Wilson be the hero!

Hmm.
 
Who in their right mind would show up at a protest where they were shouting "What do we want?" "Officer Wilson dead!" "When do we want it?" "Now!"
 
I hate to sound like I’m racially stereotyping or something, but CNN showed several arrestees being loaded into transport vans. The vast majority were actually white and as I said earlier had the look of the professional anarchist WTO rioter type – whatever that is.
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Let's introduce our selves to one of those white arrestees.

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/meet-holocaust-survivor-arrested-brown
http://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-s...uson-protest-says-racism-alive-america-265703

assetContent.act

Hedy Epstein turned 90 on August 15, and she spent much of last week celebrating. Friends and family traveled to her home in St. Louis, Missouri,
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A human rights activist and Holocaust survivor, Epstein had been following the unrest in nearby Ferguson, where an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, was shot and killed by police on August 9.
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“I really didn’t think about being arrested or doing anything like that,” Epstein told Newsweek. “I was just going to be somebody in the crowd. I guess maybe I was impulsive: Someone said, ‘Who is willing to be arrested if that happens?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’m willing.’”

A police officer informed the crowd that Nixon and his staff were not in the building, Epstein says, and urged them to leave. When she and eight other protesters refused, they were arrested for failure to disperse. Police handcuffed Epstein behind her back and took her to a nearby police substation. She was booked, given a court date of October 21, and then told she could leave.

“I’m deeply, deeply troubled by what’s going on in Ferguson,” says Epstein. “It’s a matter of racism and injustice, and it’s not only in Ferguson…. Racism is alive and well in the United States. The power structure looks at anyone who’s different as the other, as less worthy, and so you treat the other as someone who is less human and who needs to be controlled and who is not trusted.”
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I'd like to suggest that some white people might just feel solidarity with the residents of Ferguson.

There is a tendency to paint all protesters as rioters and every protester as a looter. Do we really need to start calling white protesters anarchists?
 
Do we really need to start calling white protesters anarchists?
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No, I never suggested that all white protesters were anarchist, but to suggest they weren’t there when reporters on the ground said they were ignores reality. My primary reason for mentioning their presence was to illustrate that the majority of the protesters were peaceful and it was only a small minority, many outsiders, causing trouble. This seems to be supported by the media and various leaders on the ground.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/ferguson-protests_n_5689963.html
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
Actually, the last I heard was that the officer did not INITIALLY know about the robbery when he told them to get out of the street but he was still in his car at that point. The call then (very shortly after he initiated contact) came over the radio about the robbery, at which point the officer attempted to exit his vehicle and was attacked by Brown.
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The Ferguson PD incident report on the robbery also contained action logs.
Officer Wilson was cleared from his prior call at 12:00:00 (page 11).
The robbery call descriptions were noted between 11:52:53 and 11:58:04 (page 12).
The unit assigned to the robbery call was cleared at 12:00:51 (page 13).
The shooting was apparently reported at 12:01:50 (page 14).
 
This is not about white or black. Its about a person aggressively and physically challenging an officer. If an officer is going to arrest you, you have no right to resist. This looks like it went beyond simple resistance with the officer being assaulted. If it was a good shoot we will know when the investigation is complete. The media, as usual, plays up such incidents without regard for the facts and consistent with their own agenda.
 
“I’m deeply, deeply troubled by what’s going on in Ferguson,” says Epstein. “It’s a matter of racism and injustice, and it’s not only in Ferguson…. Racism is alive and well in the United States.
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People keep saying 'racism is alive and well' in this country, as if its news, or that people keep insisting that racism has died off.

I think that people forget that the majority of 'racism' in this country amounts to mere personal opinions. Is it wrong, illegal, or immoral to have your own opinion?
The point where it becomes wrong is when that opinion leads to persecution.
So far, I have yet to be convinced that this particular shooting was motivated by actual racism.
 
I think that racism will always be alive, I believe that it's part of human nature. IMO the question is if it's still institutionalized in places like Ferguson. I don't know. However I have yet to see any evidence that racism was a primary factor in this shooting, while the evidence supporting a justified shooting seems to grow every day.

I'm still not convinced that the Ferguson PD's response to the events following the shooting can be justified.
 
Mainah said:
I'm still not convinced that the Ferguson PD's response to the events following the shooting can be justified.
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But you seem to be convinced that the rioters' actions were justified ... despite the fact they weren't at the scene and didn't have any idea what really happened (and still don't). So they aren't protesting an unjust shooting, they're just protesting the fact that a black teenager (who happened to also be a robber and a thug) committed suicide by cop.

Do you think they'd protesting the same if the officer had been black? If not, then it's obvious they are not protesting the cop's actions but simply the fact that "Whitey" killed another black kid.
 
The problem here is that many of you have already passed judgement based on media and internet posts and you cant be convinced out of that decision. You dont make a decision without hearing all the facts to include the officers and witness version. Im sure the officer will have his day in court. The problem is by the time it reaches the court many of you will have already come to a verdict. Once the verdict is read, whatever it might be, the officer will have to live in hiding and will not work again as an officer.
 
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