The Ferguson, MO Police Shooting

[Fishing_Cabin]

Tazing maybe, gassing not so much. If you don't want to get tear-gassed don't march next to the guy throwing rocks. If the guy next to you wasn't throwing rocks, and bends down to pick one up, it's time to go elsewhere.

Still, under the circumstances in question, it would be wise and prudent to leave rather than escalate and/or risk arrest.

In fact, under these circumstances, I think wisdom and prudence dictates day-time only protests.

I agree with both thoughts. I seem to remember some talks about the McDuffie riots years ago, and (going from memory) it seems that they were criticized for being to soft early on, but yet there were still deaths/injuries during that incident as well as a fair amount of property damage. Looking at this incident in Ferguson, and the complaints about being too strict early on, I wonder if there is any middle ground really.

I support peaceful protest on issues. I draw the line at people looting, robbing, burning others property, and harming others. I actually think well of the few protesters who tried to protect some businesses at times during the protest. I dislike those who stand with the ones looting, throwing rocks or Molotov cocktails.

I feel that when this is over, no issues will be resolved, and the area may come out more economically depressed then before.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Personally, I think protests should be protests against some sort of injustice. Here, NOBODY (except maybe the police officer, his partner, and Brown's accomplice) knows whether or not there has been an injustice. Until the process has played out and the officer either convicted or cleared, the process has not played out.

Ergo, the protesters are not engaging in a legitimate protest. Brown's parents know how big he was. If he had criminal tendencies and/or gang affiliations, they must have known or at least suspected. If he had anger management issues, the parents knew about them. So he went out and got himself shot by a cop ... and the parents (as always in these cases) are trying to portray him as a harmless victim of police aggression. And they've sold that story to a big chunk of people.

What if the officer's story is true?

 

[Mainah]

As far as the shooting goes it seems like this is going to play out very much like the Martin case. One side will claim that he was an innocent kid on his way home from Sunday school and the other will claim that he was a thug hell-bent on destruction. As in the Martin case I suspect that the truth will fall somewhere in the middle.

And sure, it makes sense to run the other way when the tear gas gets lobbed. And that seems like the best course of action in Ferguson tonight. But that doesn't mean that it will always be the best plan. There have been times in our history when harsh measures have been used to deny basic Constitutional rights. My dad marched at Selma, he told me about it.

In the end I don't know if Hamas-like tactics (using peaceful civilians as cover) come in response to excessive force. Or if that force is needed to combat those tactics. Either way it still makes sense to me to debate all of this now, because this sure strikes me as a glimpse at the future. And I still believe that the issues at play could have an impact on the national gun control debate

 

[Ruger480]

What if the officer's story is true?

I wonder about that myself. It certainly wouldn't look good for people voicing equality concerns in regards to law enforcement.

I also worry about what will happen when/if he is found innocent. Look at the number of times a minority has been shot and killed by an LEO and it was found justified. People are going to be upset.

 

[L2R]

I want to watch this thread

so I have to post so I can keep up.

I will just say that whatever happened, the truth has been trampled to the point that we may never know what truly happened.

My guess is everyone was wrong. Some more than others.

Has anyone pinned down the police chief why he never installed video cameras in the field? This alone speaks volumes to me.

As they cannot defend themselves with video, that coupled with the way they mishandled the immediate aftermath of this event is enough to say they need to overhaul those in charge regardless of what went down earlier between Wilson and Brown.

 

[jrinne0430]

Even if they had cameras, they could deny the release (as some depts do) to the public or claim it malfunctioned...happens more than we like to admit..

 

[rope2feet]

Duty Weapon?

Anyone know the make and model of the weapon used by Wilson to stop Brown? Caliber? Bullet type?

 

[WyMark]

That's wise and prudent, but it misses the initial point: throwing the canister at a crowd of folks who are doing nothing but holding up signs and yelling. It's the indiscriminate usage of such means that bothers me. Might there be someone who was looting last night in the crowd? Perhaps, but that doesn't justify using force on everyone.

That's true, and I think it speaks to a much larger issue.

Still, under the circumstances in question, it would be wise and prudent to leave rather than escalate and/or risk arrest.

In fact, under these circumstances, I think wisdom and prudence dictates day-time only protests.

Brian, I agree completely. With Tom.

What you're stating is the police mind set for show of overwhelming force and pain infliction. If you keep hitting the dog on the nose with a rolled up paper, then prudence dictates that he not crap on the rug. Is the role of law enforcement, in the face of mostly peaceful protest, to "serve and protect" or "subdue and control"? I'd argue that the show of force in this case has done much more to incite the violence than to avert it. Maybe that's the intent.

Here's a picture of the Ukrainian Army facing off with pro-Russian militants:

Oh wait, that's the 95% white Ferguson/St Louis County police getting set up to "serve and protect" the 85% black local community. I find these images very disturbing, and a compelling reminder of why we fight so hard to protect the RKBA.

 

[zxcvbob]

I zoomed way in on that picture. I didn't see any nametags, and only one maybe-badge.

 

[jrinne0430]

Very valid points WyMark. The police response, in particular to the pre-rioting, did nothing but create the spark. As for the keeping arms, it would have little affect on the armored RVs in the pic.

 

[Tom Servo]

What if the officer's story is true?

An acquittal will probably set off accusations of corruption and bias. It may cause more rioting.

In no possible future will he truly be exonerated. The news coverage and politics have already convicted him.

Oh wait, that's the 95% white Ferguson/St Louis County police getting set up to "serve and protect" the 85% black local community.

Absolutely nothing about that picture suggests that those guys are part of the community. Their very appearance and presentation implies that they expect violence and are ready to dish it out.

Pair that perception with a bunch of people feeling anger and desperation, and you've got a powder keg. The very authority the locals have been led to resent and distrust just pulled out its biggest guns, and it's there to keep the status quo with force.

 

[Mainah]

Yes, if they had body or dash cameras they could manipulate that footage. But from what we know now they didn't have either. They did have and release a security video from a local store that apparently shows the victim committing a strong arm robbery. Although we don't know if that video has been edited yet, and the local police later admitted that the officer who fired the fatal shots was not aware of that crime when he encountered and then engaged the victim.

So like the Martin case we have the selective use of surveillance cameras being used as a means of defining a shooting that was not captured with the same technology. And in both cases the images that were captured could have demonstrated a better picture of the victim that the one that was portrayed in the media. However in neither case do we actually see what led to a fatal shooting. or the shooting itself.

 

[motorhead0922]

Yes, if they had body or dash cameras they could manipulate that footage.

That would be tampering with evidence.

It is interesting though, that in this day of 24/7 surveillance, no video of the actual event is available.

 

[Mainah]

I find it interesting to see what is available, so far. So far it's either been still pictures of the victim looking like a cherub or a video of him looking like a complete criminal.

 

[WyMark]

As for the keeping arms, it would have little affect on the armored RVs in the pic.

Probably not. But think of a gun registry, and seeing that "RV" pulling up in front of your house to collect the firearms on the list.

Overall, I think that the extreme militarization of law enforcement is a very bad thing. When the "authoritah" have ever bigger and badder hammers, you start to look more and more like a nail.

 

[jrinne0430]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrinne0430
As for the keeping arms, it would have little affect on the armored RVs in the pic.

Probably not. But think of a gun registry, and seeing that "RV" pulling up in front of your house to collect the firearms on the list.

Overall, I think that the extreme militarization of law enforcement is a very bad thing. When the "authoritah" have ever bigger and badder hammers, you start to look more and more like a nail

.

Agree

 

[Technosavant]

It is interesting though, that in this day of 24/7 surveillance, no video of the actual event is available.

Apparently the Ferguson PD has some cameras (dunno if they were for the cars or body packs) but hadn't started using them yet. I bet they wish they had gotten on the stick now.

That particular neighborhood is extremely economically depressed so you wouldn't have other surveillance cameras that would have caught the incident.


As for the police response:
Things have been improving. While the cops have taken a less adversarial stance over the last several days, it hasn't fully stopped the problem of looting/rioting. Early in the evening it's a peaceful protest. Later in the night the criminal element comes out and gets going... the problem is about 9-10pm, when the criminals start mixing with the peaceful folks. There's even well documented instances of out of towners (not just people from other neighborhoods, but I'm talking people from other states) who come in for the express purpose of antagonizing the police with an eye toward forcing a response. When bricks, molotov cocktails, and rocks are being thrown and gunshots being fired, the police HAVE to come in heavy. Last night there were shots fired at police but the police held back... I notice the national media intent on the "overbearing police that murders minorities" narrative haven't mentioned that.

Thing is, there's times when the police DO need the riot gear. There's also times when it's counterproductive.

They've started getting closer to striking the right balance, the problem now is isolating the troublemakers from the protestors. Today the protesting groups were telling people to go home when the sun goes down... that will clear the field to allow the police to handle the troublemakers and maybe start to cool this thing down. The groups are realizing that they're being used as cover... and they're not real happy about it.

Edit to add:
Looks like the protestors are out in force again tonight, but no miscreants just yet.

 

[johnelmore]

One thing to note about all of these Police deadly force scenarios is the perpetrator always seems to resist the police from the start. If everyone would simply stand still and not say anything this would not have happened. This particular situation started with a mild assault and resistance against the officer. While we dont have all the facts yet to judge the officer's actions, I believe I can state with confidence that this incident was provoked by the actions of Michael Brown.

Ask yourself what would you do if Michael Brown, a very large man, disobeyed your commands and assaulted you even grabbing at your pistol to the point where it goes off. Its easy to state matter of factly what you would do in a message forum, but while its happening is a different matter.

Darren Wilson did not go out on patrol that day expecting or wishing for this to happen. However, Michael Brown had other intentions. He shoplifted from a store and than assaulted the shopkeeper. His next action was then to resist, disobey and assault a police officer.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

It has now apparently been confirmed that the officer involved suffered a fractured "orbital socket" (that's the bones around the eyeball) in the incident. It's difficult to conceive of any way that could have occurred if the alleged "victim" was standing 20 or 30 feet away with his hands up.

On the other hand, I have now read that Brown was 6'-4" tall and weighed 292 pounds. If someone that big punches you in the face, it's not unlikely to expect a broken bone or three at a minimum. It seems to me that the factual pendulum is swinging in support of the officer's version of the story, but that's obviously not going to affect the behavior of those whose agenda isn't really interested in the truth of the matter but just to create mayhem and racial unrest.

 

[btmj]

As I said earlier, I have close family who live in Ferguson. I have to suspect that the Ferguson PD has a bad habit of harassing black people, particularly young black men. The pent-up rage that black Ferguson residents have toward the police is astonishing. Just 5 miles away is the City of St Louis... North St Louis to be exact. North St Louis has a higher crime rate, a higher unemployment rate, and a lower household income than Ferguson. It is what you call "a bad area"... Ferguson is not exactly middle class, but it is certainly not a ghetto... I go to Ferguson all the time... I avoid North St Louis. In any given year there are numerous instances where police officers shoot young black men in North St Louis... But there are no riots, looting, week long protests... Why? I suspect that the St Louis Police are more even handed and fair in their dealings with city residents. St Louis city black residents are not seething with resentment against the police. Whereas in Ferguson, they are. There has to be a reason.