The BGs got what they deserve! (Video)

[Tanzer]

Ethnic remarks do nothing to enhance the reputation of gun owners and cast all of us in a bad light.

Sorry if it put a bee in your bonnet. In fact, the comments were a bit off point. Everyone is someone's son or daughter, and perhaps under the circumstances, such jides are out of place. Understood.
That being said, I don't think it was so reprehesable that it puts all gun owners in a bad light. Honestly, do you never make comments about things that seem ridiculous to you? Are you offended if you're in a car with someone who makes a comment about a kid (any kid) who's got a mohawk and is wearing his pants around his knees? If I comment that someone should buy him a belt for Christmas, am I going too far?
You seem to have overlooked such comments as:

I can agree they got what they deserved, but why doesn't the shop owner just wear the gun on his waist?

love watching those videos. good post!

now thats the way to do it!

IMO shame the other BG did not get a slug in his a*# also.

Turn-about is fair play.

Do you think these scum would have shown the Marine/owner one ounce of sympathy had he turned his back during the exchange?

Heck, I was disappointed he missed the first crook.

I would have liked it if the Marine had put the bullet a little higher in perp #2's spine, quadraplegic would be a better punishment than paraplegic, and of course same for perp #1.

Disturbing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They got what they deserved.

We aren't being serious about gun violence. Here is one of those that abused that right and society should have come down on him like a ton of bricks. No sympathy for Mr Wheelchair either.

How is that disturbing? I love to watch bad people get shot

Not to offend these posters, but put against these comments, you seem to take special issue whith some admittedly out of place, yet rather docile comments. I do not think these comments were nearly as potent of a catylist for Sarah Brady as those I quoted.

You yourself stated;

Can't feel sympathy for either of them. They brought it, they bought it.

How would that comment fit in with?
Your comment;

At least you don't have to contribute to the Sarah Brady project now. You have already done quite enough to help the anti's today.

Yes, this is a place for etiquette, but it is a community, and sometimes we feel comfortable with lightening a situation. A simple; "Hey, not funny, guys" would have sufficed. Click on my thread history and you'll find me quite sympathetic to the thought of others. Once again, I'm sorry if it disturbed you.

 

[The Tourist]

If you have ever held a dying bullet ridden child in your arms

I'm certain such a memory has been burned into your psyche' for all time.

But consider this, I'm someone's child.

I walk the same streets, subject myself to the same vermin, somehow defend myself, and then wait for the tirade of lefty critics who get to second guess my actions at their leisure.

My job is primarily a cash business, and it is by the stupid luck of the draw that these two felons didn't come to see me.

Now, I might be an angry, grizzled old putz that most of polite society might want to jail on numerous facets of Emily Post.

But I am still Mrs. Stelzner's fair haired, little blue-eyed boy.

I work, I breathe, I toil to feed and protect my family and I see absolutely no justification for attacking that store owner.

They marched onto another man's property, carrying a firearm, and both of them were unmasked. What do you think two scungili plan to do with a witness who has too much information.

Like many here, I surround myself with protection devices. Alarms, yard lights, modern locks and secure windows. But I have also purchased the best functioning firearms, and you won't catch me on my knees begging.

The owner shot back. His mother is glad he is still alive and unhurt.

 

[Doggieman]

not to change the subject..

but what's interesting to me is how immediately and finally the perp who was shot in the back was immobilized. Sever the spinal cord with one shot = immediate de-escalation. Really quite stunning to watch. I must admit I had mixed emotions about it. On one hand I'm thrilled he's not going to be doing any more robberies, on the other hand that must be horrible to undergo.

 

[Hallucinator]

Notice the sideways firearm presentation from the gunman. He's been watching too much TV.

 

[Perldog007]

Not personally offended. Just think it ain't too bright to be joking about rims and spinners on a wheel chair for a wounded attacker who just so happens to be black.

Of course I understand "blue humor". Unfortunately I have had to tend to more than one corpse or soon to be corpse. But that is between folks on the scene to keep their sanity. Not something you post on a billboard or a forum where it can be read by people working hard to curtail our rights.

These forums are watched and read by antis all the time. Not to mentioned they can be evidence against some poor citizen who had to defend themselves.

And I agree Tourist, you are somebody's son. I believe the actors ggave up their rights when they threatened the shopkeep. If I did not believe in self determination and the right to keep and bear I would not be on here.

I am not saying that these guys deserve any special compassion.

I do not feel sympathy for the effects the actors suffered from their misdeeds. Point guns at people and you can and may be shot. I am glad that the victim prevailed.

My point is that the hyper macho movie tough guy talk degrades the image of gun owners. The racial references more so. There was an article in the New Yorker where the "journalist" took one comment out of a very long thread to make his anti-gun point.

Hope that guy doesn't find this thread with a google. We have managed to hand him the stick to beat us with. Express your witty Arnold like one liners and sterotypical jokes in private and hope the listener is never put on the stand against you.

The fact that folk are dim-witted enough to put it on line and come to a forum ostensibly for responsible gun owners is what puts bees in my bonnet.

If they come rob another honest citizen they may well meet the same result. That is the choice they made.

I am saying that we as a community of gun owners can choose to think before we type things that hurt our cause.

Unless you want to give the anti-gunners a boost. If that's your goal it's your right. I think it's bad speech and the remedy for bad speech is more speech. That's what I bring to the party

P.S. Tanzer, I did read the thread but did not want to be up all night as a point by point would probably exceed the 10,000 char limit. I chose to cite what appeared to me an obvious example of a post that does not promote law abiding gun owners in a good way.

 

[Perldog007]

NOticed that myself

Notice the sideways firearm presentation from the gunman. He's been watching too much TV.

I saw that too and my thought was that it may have saved the shopkeeper's life.

Hollywood representation of firearms may not be all bad all the time. I still think the blind leading the really blind ain't good, but in this case it seems to have worked out.

 

[Perldog007]

Seriously, there are better forums and sites to post ethnic remarks.

Some of the best housing officers I ever worked with were black, saving up to buy rims, and Ice Cube fans.

Anybody who has been there, known anybody who has, or read Massad Ayoob knows that the real battle is the one that occurs after you survive the gun battle.

Since this is the tactical forum - sound tactics include staying out of jail and civil court. You won't be able to defend yourself with that USP in most jails and the memory of it won't keep you safe after it is sold at auction to satisfy a civil judgment.

That means that what you do and say before and after a Deadly Force Defense event might end up being as significant, or more significant than the event itself.

 

[Tanzer]

Prldog007,
Please check the archives (general discussion) for my thread entitled; "Some Discretion Please". I think you'll see that I'm quite aware of how the internet is documented.
We have been over this ad nausium. A specific comment about something such as hubcaps does not instantly equal anything racial. The 20ish girl who delivers the sunday paper to my house has "spinners". She is a chubby white girl with an earring in her nose, connected by a chain to the one in her ear. To me, It had nothing to do with race, it hasto do with a punky lifestyle. That alone is what was be referred to (at least by me). It was you who made a racial connection.

You started by preaching from a pulpit, and ended with the same type of talk that I pointed out as being more damaging. your response to my reply is integrated with my reference points yet skirts any meaningful rebuttal. Instead, you bring in perjorative colloquialism. You did not acknowledge the fact that I apologized if it offended you, but rather went on to attempt discreditation by referring to me as dim-witted. You, sir, are not representing gun owners as anything different from the fist-shaking antis who twist small things for everything they can get, while dancing around their own erroneous remarks.

 

[The Tourist]

Unless you want to give the anti-gunners a boost.

No matter what the scenario might be, the lefties will always paint an armed law abiding citizen as a cowboy. "Why didn't he just give them the money and call 911?"

Fighting back is so last year. Hillary is coming.

As for the race card, the video trumps it. The robbers were black, the shop owner was white and the black guys started it. I cannot change that to sound politically correct, nor should it be a debating point.

The real problem here is "the spin." The guys at TFL will see an innocent man protecting his life and property. It is also my belief that he might have also been eliminated as a potential witness.

Leftists will always see this as further gun violence and a depiction of how the strife of "urban centers of limited resources and poverty" play out in a never-ending drama of human pain.

Hey, I got urban pain. My back hurts from lifting and my wife didn'tleave me any lunch money.

So I guess I can shoot somebody.

 

[JohnKSa]

This thread is supposed to be about tactics and training and there is a LOT to be learned, in terms of tactics, from watching the video.

The race of the shopkeeper and his assailants is not relevant to that discussion. Ridiculing or denigrating the people in the video also isn't relevant to the topic of this forum.

 

[The Tourist]

Ridiculing or denigrating the people

I politely disagree.

This whole "gansta gun sideways" thingie comes from romancing the acts seen on music videos.

The gansta lifestyle is depicted as women, cars, money and living outside of society's boundaries and mores.

At some level, the two knucleheads in the video felt that their transitory desire for instant wealth trumped the owner's business, security and safety, even his life.

The gansta lifestyle is not only ridiculous, but dangerous as much of it is misunderstood. For example, the action of "brandishing" clearly has two meanings.

For example, in both of the movies/videos of "What's Love Got to do With It," and R Kelly's famous "closet" opus, a character draws a nickel plated automatic pistol. You'll notice that in both cases, there is no serious motion to actually fire the weapon.

The weapon simply becomes a prop, showing that the user is very serious about stating his opinion.

How long would these guys last in real life? Yikes, in my neighborhood our CSI would have to work long into the evening just to count the bullet holes.

And yet, to the young viewers of these films, the guy brandishing the weapon is "a real man."

I believe there is a mandate to denigrate this lifestyle.

 

[JohnKSa]

I believe there is a mandate to denigrate this lifestyle.

Perhaps...

But NOT here.

This forum is about guns, this subforum is about tactics and training. The advisability of holding a gun in the manner shown would be a topic for discussion.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with TFL, however relevant it may be to our society and the problems with it.

 

[The Tourist]

Thank you. I did make an effort to be polite, and I appreciate your response.

 

[JohnKSa]

I didn't take your post to be impolite, and I didn't intend my response to be impolite either, just emphatic.

There are many topics that are relevant to our society that shouldn't be discussed here. I'm not saying that what you said was wrong, only that it's not firearms related.

 

[Perldog007]

For stepping over the line, I apologize.

To the people I insulted, the fact that I perceived them to be insulting to people I had worked with and for is no excuse. My wrong did not make it right.

Let's just say that tactically and as a matter of training, this forum member believes that what is said (or posted) before or after a use of force in self defense event, can be critical to surviving the aftermath.

Since I feel passionate about this I will leave you in peace. Stay safe,

Doug

 

[Tanzer]

I too became a bit apiplectic on this matter. My apologies as it altered the course of the thread and added no relative discourse. I will do my best in the future not to go off topic.

 

[Tanzer]

Alright, let's try to keep it going. About two pages ago, someone stated that it was amazing to see how it really goes down. You train, you practice drawing from a holster, and all the time what you see in the proverbial mirror is you drawing and taking a strong stance. When it comes down to brass tacks, the real event is clumsy and non-choriographed. It's really something to look at.
I have once, as a civilian, brandished my weapon in self defense. I am repeatedly thankful that it did not come to pulling the trigger, or getting the business end of his weapon (for anyone who remembers the old thread, I still have not learned what it was - because I haven't pressed the issue - really don't care and just glad all went well). The thing I remember most is trying to get into my high SUV while juggling a 1911, safety off, loaded chamber, playing "hot potato" with it, and the sheer joy of finally getting control of it. With everything else that happened, that's my most vivid memory.
The point I'm making is that it's never what you think it will be. Kinda' like meeting your mother-in-law for the first time.

 

[JohnKSa]

Some thoughts...

Pretty clear that the shop owner should have been carrying. For whatever reason the BG didn't shoot while the owner ran for his gun, but he had time an opportunity. Having a gun is better than not having one. Having one on you is better than having one in the store room, in the car, at home, across the room.

The BG should not have pursued the shop owner. It nearly led to his death. Once he lost control of the situation, he should have immediately fled.

In an SD encounter, I would see this as analagous to a law abiding defender holding an attacker at gunpoint after thwarting an attack, having the attacker run and then trying to catch him. Once the control of the attacker is lost, the focus should immediately turn towards securing against the return of the attacker rather than trying to re-apprehend him. He could be running toward a weapon (like the shopkeeper) or toward an accomplice.

Pulling a gun on someone if you don't have the will or ability to use it is very dangerous. The BG was apparently reticent or unable to fire. Therefore his gun did him no good--it in fact was harmful to him as it gave him unwarranted confidence.

 

[grey sky]

Good tactic by shop owner ie doing the unexpected.
akin to tossing a walet insted of handing it over

I may be wrong but doing the unexpected seems to be a good tactic
hands up this is a hold up translates to RUN AWAY RUN AWAY. or other
unexpected behavior.

 

[tepin]

Happy ending.