The art of rifle defense for bear, up close and personal...

Status
Not open for further replies.
You should have something chambered in 44mag or 454 casull, or even the new 500mag.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips, but, and there always is a but life, the first handgun that i shot was at 14 years of age, and it was an S&W model 29, 4 screw. I own one of the first original model 500's; it is still Alaska. I use to shoot running jacks with my Colt .45 S.A.A in Avenal California while in the Navy. I have killed bear, deer--muleys and whitetail, elk, Mt. Lion, and various other species with various handguns.

I will carry the 500 for hiking maybe, but in sure Bear company I will use a rifle. Although I consider myself one hell of a shot with a handgun, I shoot a rifle better!!!:D

Besides, hitting fast moving, large animals in the thick stuff up there with a handgun with your life on the line is no easy task, although it may seem so in your mind. I don't know if you have ever seen some of that thick stuff, but an elephant could charge you from 10 yards, and you would know he was there before he engaged you ... SERIOUSLY.

Take if from me, Elephants in thick stuff are hard to see ... I have been there on foot when I noticed the shadows in betwix the trees were moving ... I went closer to investigate and a herd of ele's was moving by. You, who sit here now and read this may not believe this, but an elephant or a bear is quieter in the thick than a deer!!!

If you are in the open areas where an autoloader may play a factor, or a handgun, most likely you won't need it because when you see them at a distance, they smell or see you ... they leave because they do not feel threatened, you leave because you do!!!

PS: This is not combat ... you have no backup, no suits of armor and your rifle at the ready, predators telling where they are, radios, optics, etc, and you have expectation you are under threat!!!

We are talking about walking the river minding your own Da-- business, rod over your shoulder, warm sun hitting your face, and dreaming of smoked salmon, when you hear a single splash behind you. You turn to see a 1200 pound brownie 7 yards away, one paw in the water (remember what I told you about quiet they are when moving about?), and he looks upset that you are at HIS DINNER WITHOUT AN INVITATION! Unlike your combat with slow as sin humans, this beast can outrun a race horse in a short distance, and this is da-- short! You try to turn on your RED DOT Sight and all you see is brown hair and smell bad breath as the water hemorrages with your red blood like a sunrise over the Northern Transvaal, as he bites you by the neck, cuts your fancy camo sling in two, whilst your extra auto mags hit the water first, and the last thing you think is, "Where in the HILL did he come from" as your vision goes black!

This is not combat, this is survival in a world where you are ON the food chain!
 
Last edited:
I personally witnessed the charge (not a bluff) of a brown bear sow stopped by a 7.62x39 to the front leg. I have seen two other videos of bear charges where the bear changed direction upon getting shot or shot at, even though they could have physically made it to the shooter and caused damage .

These three instances show to me that sometimes, the blast and effects of getting hit, even a non lethal hit, MAY stop a bear attack. However, there are also accounts of a bear continuing the attack after receiving bullets.

Just like an attack by a human, you just never know how a bear will react to being shot, some will turn and cease hostilties, some will continue until physically unable to.
 
I used to work fishing lines in the Bristol Bay ---- where from time-to-time, you end up having philosophical differences with brown bears over the question of who has the right-of-way with the salmon (they do).

One of the bear's prey is moose ---- and if they can kill a moose, they sure as heck can kill you.

Our bears were not generally impressed by strobe lights or air horns --- which were a decent first line of defense. We also kept a shotgun with slugs handy - but didn't need it (more likely to use a rock salt load to drive the seals away).

Our season was in June/July --- when alternative food sources were readily available. At that point, the bear is a nuissance, but not a threat. In May, then later in the summer, the bear's instinct drives them to eat just about anything in sight --- especially fish --- which is when they are more agressive.
 
Our season was in June/July --- when alternative food sources were readily available. At that point, the bear is a nuissance, but not a threat. In May, then later in the summer, the bear's instinct drives them to eat just about anything in sight --- especially fish --- which is when they are more agressive.
Click to expand...


That a good thing to know!:D
 
I have given some thought to how I would respond in this thread. I knew my original post above would stir up some fecal matter, and it did. I don't want to insult or offend anyone here, and I readily admit that I have never fired a shot at a bear, nor have I ever lived in bear country.

Regarding the killing power of a 308 or 30-06 on large bear: I believe that FMJ (military ball) in either cartridge has enough penetration to reach the vital spots on a bear from any angle except possibly from straight behind. I base this belief on a couple of facts. (1) I have seen 7.62x51 military surplus ammo penetrate 14 inches of southern yellow pine, in the form of 10 layers of 2x10, glued and screwed together (2) I have a first hand account told to me by my uncle that an M60 machine gun (7.62x51) shot completely through a water buffalo lengthwise while he was serving in SE Asia in 1968. (3) Both the 7x57 and 6.5x55 were used "back in the day" in Africa to hunt large dangerous game. They loaded these cartridges with metal jacketed round nose solids, and easily achieved 36 inches of penetration into all manner of multi-ton mega-fauna. If a 7x57 will do it, a 30-06 or 308 will too.

My preference for a semi-automatic rifle has nothing to do with a 20 round magazine, but it has everything to do with faster follow-up shots and thus more shots on target. A semi-automatic rifle is faster not just because it self loads, but also because there is some recoil absorption due to the action.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that an M1A or AR10 in 7.62 will be faster shooting than a bolt action 458 Win Mag (or any of the other big magnums).

If I am faced with a charging bear at 40 yards, with the stress and adrenaline, and the fact that the bear is a moving target, I estimate my Probability of hitting a vital on the bear to be about 50% for each shot fired. So the more shots I can put on target, the better odds I have that one of them will hit something important.

If I can put 4 shots on target with a 50% probability of hit, the probability that at least 1 of those 4 shots will be a good hit is 94%. The probability that at least 2 will be good hits is 69%. The probability that at least 3 will be good hits is 31%. Now here is the important part... the probability that all 4 shots will miss is only 6%, and I find that very comforting.

Now lets say I am using a much more powerful rifle, and I can only get 2 shots on the charging bear.... my probability of hit is still 50% for each shot. The probability that at least 1 of the 2 shots will be good is 75%. The probability that both shots will be good is 25%... here is the scary part... the probability that both shots miss is 25%. That is not very comforting.

So for me, with my skill level when faced with a moving dangerous animal, I want to be able to put as many shots on target as possible, rather than relying on a single massive bullet which might completely miss.

So that was my thought process when I recommended a semi-automatic rifle in 30-06 or 308.
 
I had to laugh at the comment by " jgcoastie" in regards to playing dead

Vast majority of the attacks are hit and runs. I.e. sow protecting a cub (she only knows boars kill them) and or sudden encounters.

Playin dead means you get smacked around and then they leave. Vast majority of the people who get attacked live through it (some have no guns, some have guns and can't deploy them).

Latest stats say handguns are slightly more effective than rifles for bear attacks (stats not well done but it was interesting). Stats failed to sort out all the encounters and categories them clearly.

Shooting gthem means you get smacked around and have a wounded bear (at which point its back to a crap shoot, but its going to be one ****** off bear).

So, yes best startegy is to play dead. Worst is to shoot.

Of course its obvious that data means nothing to some people. It does to me, I go with the best odds.

And yes, guides shoot (right after the client, I was being a bit smart). The idea is to put the bear downa dn fast (guess who gets to go into the brush after the bear if it does nto go down? That right, not the client. I guess the guides I know lie to me. Terrible people to do that.

I got hauled kicking and screaming up here back in 1954. I have yet to see a sure fired solution. I have never read of a charging bear being taken down with shotgun slugs. Some shot from cover and died by LEO, but that is to do with them being in towns and a shotgun slug is better than a rifle bullet due to the travel.

I do know of at least 2 grizzly bears, maybe 3 now, that got taken down by 9mm. One claimed by a 45 (8 shot).

I don't claim to have the answers. I do know what I have done when I was out in the woods. Happily I never had to do anything.

I also traveled in Canada where bear spry or playing dead was your only option.

I am not sure what or how you come up with American Alaskan Natives. They are Alaskan Natives period (also know as First Peoples). I have yet to see UnAmerican Alaska Natives but I have not been to all corners of the state.

I do have some brothers who are Native Alaskan, but they are very American about it.

Very few people take down a charging bear with a rifle. Way to sudden and fast, cover tends to be close up here.

Again, good luck with the trip. Report back.
 
RC20 said:
I had to laugh at the comment by " jgcoastie" in regards to playing dead

Vast majority of the attacks are hit and runs. I.e. sow protecting a cub (she only knows boars kill them) and or sudden encounters.

Playin dead means you get smacked around and then they leave. Vast majority of the people who get attacked live through it (some have no guns, some have guns and can't deploy them).
Click to expand...
Laugh away... It's your life, play dead if you want to. Just don't say I didn't tell you.

When grizzly/brown bear sows feel their cubs have been threatened enough for them to attack, they attack to kill. Period.

I take more stock in myself than just curling into a ball and letting the bear have its way with me. I'd rather go out fighting than leave my fate up to an animal with a brain the size of a kiwi to decide for me. I don't trust people, what makes you think I'd just turn over control of my entire life over to an animal? I have a wife, 2 kids, and another on the way... I have too much to live for to just give my life away. I will sell my life dearly to any creature that wishes to take it from me.

Latest stats say handguns are slightly more effective than rifles for bear attacks (stats not well done but it was interesting). Stats failed to sort out all the encounters and categories them clearly.
Click to expand...
Without a source, all I'm going on is your word here and forgive me if I just generally don't trust people.

The last ADF&G study I saw was done over 15 years ago... Don't think they've done one since...

Shooting gthem means you get smacked around and have a wounded bear (at which point its back to a crap shoot, but its going to be one ****** off bear).

So, yes best startegy is to play dead. Worst is to shoot.
Click to expand...
Again, your opinion... I've been charged thrice, and I know what brown/grizzly bears are capable of... I'll shoot.

Of course its obvious that data means nothing to some people. It does to me, I go with the best odds.
Click to expand...
You do that... I'll shoot.

And yes, guides shoot (right after the client, I was being a bit smart). The idea is to put the bear downa dn fast (guess who gets to go into the brush after the bear if it does nto go down? That right, not the client. I guess the guides I know lie to me. Terrible people to do that.
Click to expand...
The only time a decent guide shoots is if the bear is charging or the bear has already been shot by the client and is headed into the brush. They don't get paid to steal the client's thunder. Big bad man coming to Alaska to prove he's hard wants to feel like a big shot when e dominates the massive bear... And he feels emasculated when the guide has to clean up his sloppy shot.

I got hauled kicking and screaming up here back in 1954. I have yet to see a sure fired solution. I have never read of a charging bear being taken down with shotgun slugs. Some shot from cover and died by LEO, but that is to do with them being in towns and a shotgun slug is better than a rifle bullet due to the travel.
Click to expand...
Most of the bears/shotgun interaction I have seen has come in the form of beanbags and rubber pellets shot by LEO's.

I do know of at least 2 grizzly bears, maybe 3 now, that got taken down by 9mm. One claimed by a 45 (8 shot).
Click to expand...
I heard about the guy with the .45... I think that was in Denali? Never heard of a 9mm taking down a bear and I sure as hell wouldn't want to find out if it could.



Difference of opinion is all....
 
Trivia: In Alaska - there are more moose related injuries than bear related. If you have someone selling you defensive equipment, consider the possibility that risks are being over-stated, primarily in order to extort funds from your pocket. Yes - you should be prepared ---- however, you don't necessarily need what the salesman says you need.

Free information:

Alaska department of fish and feathers recommends that you take measures to avoid a bear conflict:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.conflicts

Useful clue --- if there's seagulls, there will be bears. They use seagulls to locate food.

Here's some specifics for fishermen:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.fishingwithbears

As far as weapons are concerned - my uncle (a traditional Yupik speaking Native) used a JC Higgins bolt action shotgun, with slugs. Since it's set up for slugs, it even had a sling. These are usually available on gunbroker.com for about $100 (he's 87 years old, so I suppose it worked).

Slug technology has improved a lot. You can pick up a box of Hornady slugs that delivers over 2000 ft/lb at 50 yards. For hunting a bear - yes - you would normally go with a 30 cal or higher. But your purpose is defense --- which means you're dealing with a threat that is 50 yards or closer. I'd say a slug is a good choice.

As I mentioned, there are plenty of practical measures you can take to make yourself unattractive to a bear. We used the air horns (pressurized air in a can), as well as high intensity strobes --- both available at a marine supply store for less than a Benelli Black Eagle.

Good luck with your journey to my family's homeland.
 
Last edited:
Now lets say I am using a much more powerful rifle, and I can only get 2 shots on the charging bear
Click to expand...

This is all you are going to get with any gun in most situations.

You are not walking around with the rifle at the ready! Most bears charge BECAUSE YOU ARE CLOSE, and not way out at 40 yards, the number you choose to prove your point. Most folks never get their gun in service, regardless of type before being bulldozed the bear busting out of the bush at 10 yards or less. This is not Kansas!

Yes, a armor round out of an ought-six can penetrate, they are not superman, but they are small, pointed, and won't crush bone, and create a big enough hole. If hunting with them, as some locals do in the village to protect the citizens, they work fine. The bear probably doesn't know where you, and if wounded probably will run off. A bear already charging knows exactly where you are, thus the charge!

All the "WHAT IF'S" you have come from not knowing the terrain and experience shooting big and dangerous game. People have been defending themselves for centuries, and certain things work, and are proven.

Military guns go out in squads, thus the reliability factor of an AR does not come to mind for you AR guys, but, and there always is a but in life, ARs' are not as reliable as a CRF rifle ... this is beyond contestation!@

Besides, you AR guys scare all the hippies on the trail looking like Rambo going up Denali!!!;)
 
Last edited:
Enough. This is about the umpteenth iteration on this subject, and I imagine it will resurface before too long.

Go away and think about what's been said...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top