The art of rifle defense for bear, up close and personal...

[RC20]

Read this

http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

In general its accurate though guides tend to carry 375 guns (usually H&H).
You are also not likely to get the time for good shot placement or the angle. You take what you can get and hope for the best.

What usually happens is that information is presented then ignored to fit the preconceived models that have been developed.

Me, I take data and deal with accordingly. I may not follow it, but I know I am not and why I am not.

 

[Alaska444]

Dear RC20,

I would not advise playing dead as the first line of defense for a grizzly bear attack. It is instead an option of last resort that will not work every single time. Playing dead is a good way to end up dead in too many cases.

What works?

More than 4 in a group and avoiding dense brush are the two best avoidance strategies according to a USGS study of Alaska bear attacks over a hundred years published a couple of years ago.

The dispute is over firearms vs bear pepper spray. You must be very careful how you interpret the bear spray vs firearms issue since the data is far from complete. I don't believe that we have enough evidence to definitely state which is better. Both are recommend in bear country and many carry both.

Depending on only one line of defense is not advisable.

Playing dead has worked, but if you read some of the books by James Gary Shelton, he chronicles many times when playing dead did not work as well as all of the times people suffered serious injuries. Playing dead is a strategy of last resort.

One note, an childhood friend of mine, Mike Moerlein fought off a grizzly with walking stick and a sling shot. Larry Kaniut wrote about his encounter and how he saved his friends life at the age of 14. Mike used what he had at his disposal and it worked.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HH...ALch7WRDQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

One last tactic is to simply stand your ground and don't run. If it is a bluff charge, that is the best tactic. I hope I never have to put that advice into practice. Playing dead has worked and can work, but many have died using this strategy as well.

When it comes to bears, there is not a single perfect tactic.

 

[Salmoneye]

Rem 7400 .30-06 Carbine with 220 grain round nose...

 

[dayman]

I have a buddy in the CG that was stationed up on or near Kodiak, and he said what worked for him was to carry around a bunch of M80s.
If a Bear came to investigate he would just walk away calmly, and throw one back over his shoulder every few seconds. The downside was he had to always be smoking, so he'd have something to light the fuse with.
Probably not going to work if it's already charging, but it might make you less fun to investigate.

 

[WildBill45]

Both are recommend in bear country and many carry both.

We carry both, as my son who has lived in Alaska so long he now has that Alaskan casual attitude about it, whilst I have that cop worst scenario attitude; so he carries the bear spray and leaves the heavy .458 Lott to me to carry!

 

[jmr40]

I only wached the first 2-3 minutes of the video, but the guy knows what he is talking about. A 30-06 loaded with heavy bullets has proven over and over again to be the best all around choice for defense from the big bears. At least 2 diffferent gunwriters have put them to the test as well as the Alaska game and Fish Dept. It outperforms 45-70, 12 ga slugs and even 338 win mag at close range. And does it with 1/2 the recoil, in a lighter more compact package that is by far more reliable, especially with CRF.

Lever actions are faster with light recoiling pistol calibers, but there is no difference in speed of fire when you get up to 45-70 recoil levels generating 45 ft. lbs or more of recoil compared to 20-22 ft. lbs in a 30-06. None of the autos, or even lever actions are reliable enough. A 7600 pump might be a good choice, but I'd still go with the better reliability of a bolt rifle. Especially in the harsh climate and hunting conditions of Alaska.

You have to go up to a 375 H&H magnum to find a round that has proven to be a better stopper, and it isn't that much better. When you consider that most folks shoot a 30-06 much better it just makes sense.

 

[WildBill45]

I only wached the first 2-3 minutes of the video, but the guy knows what he is talking about. A 30-06 loaded with heavy bullets has proven over and over again to be the best all around choice for defense from the big bears.

Sorry my friend, but you misinterpreted my video. I did not or ever would suggest a 30'06 as a first string bear protection caliber ... it is not big enough, heavy enough, and not a good selection for a defensive caliber. I am not talking about hunting an unsuspecting bear; I am talking about an angry or aggressive bear that has your address and is coming like a train. I was only using my ought-six because it is control round feed like my .458 Lott, which is my heavy carry, and will be my first choice when I get there! A 450 Marlin Lever gun is the light carry rifle...

American Native Alaskans kill bears all the time the ought-six, but during hunting time for village protection duties, and they usually know what they are doing. I like rifles and handguns that start with .45 for defensive purposes.

I am talking about the deadly art of self defense, not sport!!! You cannot have enough advantages in such situations.

 

[natman]

if im not mistaken, cant you load a .45-70 rifle with .454 casull as well if you wanted even more rounds in it?

You're mistaken. A 45-70 chamber is too big to properly support a 454 casull case, and you'd almost certainly have feeding problems on top of it.

Besides, you're not going to have time to get off a lot of shots, at least not a lot of hits. You want something that will get the job done right away.

 

[oldmanFCSA]

Big Bear Gun

In my opinion,

Use a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70 loaded HEAVY and HOT.

It will NOT be pleasant to shoot, but it may save your life !!!

Practice til it hurts then stop, even if just 1 or 2 shots.

Cycle all ammo thru gun action to verify reliable feeding.

Have a good gunsmith hone the hi-spots off action to enable smooth, fast, reliable feeding, the very lightly oil it, wait 1 hour and wipe off all oil, load with ammo, and carry extra ammo.

Use a carry method that allows fast acquiring and easy access, this may save your life.

My last bear was shot and killed at a distance of 3 feet - be sure you know what you are getting yourself into and practice your responses.

 

[jgcoastie]

A lot of bad info here today...

For the kind of encounter you are talking about, its a crap shoot.

Agreed.

1. Play dead: Works vast majority of the time with Grizzly (do not do this with a black bear)

Wrong. FIGHT. This is often the only way to survive a bear encounter.

2. Bear Spray (try number 1 first, then use 2 only if it keeps chewing on you.[\STRIKE]

I'll agree that bear spray can be an effective bear deterrent when used properly.

3. There is not gun that will stop an angry or aggressive grizzly. Guides use 375 H&H (or some of the newer variations) but that is a cold shot by a client with a large caliber and the guide shoots (slightly before!) the client.

Wrong on all counts. Guides use whatever big-bore they're comfortable with. Sometimes that's a .375H&H, sometimes it's not. The way you worded it, you'd have people believe it's Alaskan law for a guide to carry a .375H&H. I know many who carry .45/70, 12ga, .338 W/M, .416 Rigby, one guy I know carries a cut-down .460 Wby Mag.

And guides don't get paid to shoot the bear before the client and ruin their experience... Guides are armed as a backup for the client. To protect against charges. If the bear looks like it will go down and die without running off, the guide does not shoot. To do so is putting another hole in the priceless hide.

People have taken down grizzly with 9mm semi auto more often than you wold think (all I know of have been successful, tow or three as I recall).

Source? A 9mm is woefully underpowered.

I would go with the highest capacity 9mm you can find. This gives you plenty of shots to shoot yourself before the bear does you in!

Wrong. Capacity doesn't kill. In a real bear charge, you have time for 1, maybe 2 shots before its on top of you. Make those 1 or 2 shots count for more than a minor flesh wound for the bear...

Think I am crazy I know but at the speed a bear moves and the distance you are talking, you will only get a round or two out of anything other than a semi auto.

Even with a semi-auto, you'll have time for ony 1 or 2 shots.

Shotguns are popular, but items 1 and 2 while not noisy have proven to be more effective. Of course we tend not to go with statistics and go with our fears.

You can play dead, I'll take my rifles and spray.

I have yet to see an agreement on shotgun load. The one I liked the best was 4 rounds of )) Buck with a slug. The idea was that you would remove its sensing apparatus and then kill it with the slug. It was a good plan and I was trained in how to execute it (never had to use it but one of the biggest things is to have a plan and stick to it)

Plans rarely survive first contact. Make every shot a lethal one. There are advocates for buckshot, but they're few and far between. If you're carrying a shotgun, load it with the hardest slugs you can find.

I would look at slug results before I loaded up with all slugs. Not much velocity and penetration is the thing that would take a bear down (if lucky, we are talking about taking out a shoulder or hip).

So, instead of using a 1oz (437.5gr) hardcast slug, you recommend using 9 .32 caliber pellets that weigh around 54gr each? Please...

Good luck, still think the best advice is bear spray (that and using your head, backing away, leaving fish behind etc)

Agreed.

I endorse Bear Spray, its got a good reputation. Not perfect, but nothing short of a 120mm smooth bore round is going to offer that (well maybe 75mm on up but you get the point)

I do too. But bear charges have been reliably stopped with a multitude of big-bore rifles and smaller (.300) magnums. To say a field piece is the only sure-fire way is mildly humurous... But inaccurate. How would you carry a field piece through all those trees anyway?

My problem with slugs in a shotgun is that I have yet to read an account of them being used. The link provides a lot of PR yadi, but no hard data. Deer are a totally different story than a grizzly bear. Small animal massive trauma and still they note that they would get away. Hmmm.

Then you need to get out more.

Its worth noting that the Surveyor I worked for and his load had a logic to it. Tested no, but it did not require good aim or penetration. I have carried that combo in the field when I had people with me (in an auto loader). We did not have bear spray at the time.

Emphasis mine.

And yes, it should be an auto loader.

No, it should be the biggest rifle or shotgun that you are inherently familiar with and can shoot the best. You only have time for 1-2 shots, no sense in trying to do it with a gun you're not familiar with.

It also is situational specifie.

1. Fish on you and a bear comes after you, Not a time to play dead

2. Sudden encounter in the bush no fish, play dead, bear spray and then firearm.

DO NOT PLAY DEAD AS OPTION NUMBER ONE. FIGHT!!! When you are unable to continue the fight is when you play dead as a last resort. I mean LAST RESORT!!! I mean that you should break out your knife and start stabbing every piece of fur you can before you try to play dead and hope the bear loses interest.

I do have a theory on the 9mm (and I would go with hard cast bullets not the SD rounds). Basically if you shoot enough you begin to affect behavior. Call it a wall of sound. I could be nuts, but while the sampling is small, the two or three incidents with the 9mm point to something there.

Theories are fine and good on the internet, but real-world has shown us that 9mm (and just about all other handguns for that matter) are poor MAN-stoppers. What makes you think they'd be reliable BEAR-stoppers? And all the bears I've ever seen near populated areas are fairly acclimated to the sound of gunfire. They often get shot with rubber pellets by LE agencies trying to get them out of people's backyards...

Shotgun would also have that affect (and an auto loader better).

Speculation at best.

While I do not expect it, if I am in the woods in bear country (well that is all around Anchorage and I do carry at times) its the 9mm and bear spray.

Well, I wish you the best of luck, because if the bear doesn't run away after the spray, well... You're screwed.

 

[WildBill45]

jgcoastie has posted some very experienced and good pieces of advice here! Thank you for that.

The point of my video is no matter what rifle, or gun of any type that you use is ... YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE SKILLS TO PAY THE BILLS! ... and without that all these equipment, tactics, and theories are a moot point without solutions!

Hitting vital areas with a .243 is better than missing with a 600 Nitro! Instead of couch potato theories get out there and acquire the skill sets, which takes years of practice for rank beginners, and touchup work for good shooters. It takes more than a drive to your favorite gun emporium and flashing your Visa Gold; it takes sweat and good ole fashioned hard work.

Besides, it is a good excuse to get underfoot of the women, and spend a lot of time shooting! How can you go wrong???

 

[Cemo]

Just a thought (probably a stupid one) from the lower 48. Wouldn't a load of #8 birdshot from a 12 ga. in the face take out their eyes and stop their charge? Follow up with some slugs? In a life and death situtation, you don't have to play fair.

 

[Old Grump]

Just a thought (probably a stupid one) from the lower 48. Wouldn't a load of #8 birdshot from a 12 ga. in the face take out their eyes and stop their charge? Follow up with some slugs? In a life and death situtation, you don't have to play fair.

At close up and personal range there is no guarantee that you will hit the eyes and even if you do there is no guarantee that this will stop the bear from running you over and doing bad things to your tender soft body. Wasting time with birdshot is a shot with slugs you won't be able to take and with slugs you don't have to hit a tiny target like a pair of eyes on a head moving side to side and up and down as it runs and tries to keep you in focus.

 

[WildBill45]

Wouldn't a load of #8 birdshot from a 12 ga. in the face take out their eyes and stop their charge?

I agree with the old grump, but, and there always is a but in life, I am sure if the bear was standing there and not going 30 MPH, up real close, yes that may cause a lot of damage. Bears are not super bears, but it doesn't take much to take you or I out by one! They won't stop even if blinded going so fast at close range which is where the problems usually are. If you were up a tree, if you can find one, and have the time to get up before a ten foot brownie who can reach 14 feet up that tree, grabs you without even climbing, and crews you like Walt Garrison chews tobacco between his teeth and gum, then it might work!

OR, if you caught him sniffing your toes with his head through the tent door, that may work! DON'T SHOOT YOUR TOES OFF THOUGH, MAKES FOR A TOUGH HIKE BACK HOME!!!

 

[Mr_Raw]

"do not shoot 454 Casull in your 45-70"

Well my experience with bears has only been with black, and brown, but you only have time for 1 or 2 shots, if your lucky you may get 3 shots.
I know that a hit with a smaller round is better than missing with a bigger round, but a 9mm is just going to **** 'em off.
A friend of mine carries a 416 Wby Mag, and I know this works.
My father use to carry a winchester defender 12g, 1oz slugs, he knows they'll stop a bear.

But what ever you decide, make sure you know how to use it, and train with it.

 

[btmj]

In my view, hunting is hunting... and combat is combat.

Hunting is about making ONE good shot on an animal. It is like sniping... firing from concealment or from a long distance. If you are going to make ONE shot on a large game animal, you need that bullet to be big, heavy, and powerful. Thus, really big game is taken with 458, 416, 375, etc...

Defending yourself against a large charging animal is not hunting, it is combat. And all militaries all over the world went to autoloading weapons a long time ago. In my view, the best bear/lion/tiger/bison/rhino defense weapon would be an M-240 machine gun loaded with armor penetrating 7.62x51... The idea is to put as many shots onto the moving target as possible.

Since there are legal and practical limitations to lugging a 25+ lb machine gun through the bush, we can look to the second choices.

The second choice would be a good semi-automatic military pattern rifle in 7.62x51... M1A, AR-10 style, FN FAL, etc. Another grand choice mould be an M1 garand.

Another good choice MIGHT be an AR-10 style rifle re-chambered in 338 federal... 225 grain bullet with significantly more energy than a 220 grain 30-06.... as long as the recoil is not so excessive that followup shots are slow.

A Bennelli 12 gage auto loaded with slugs and/or 000 buckshot... that might be the best choice of all.

 

[Aaron1100us]

I imagine something in .700 Nitro Express would work.

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jgcoastie]

In my view, hunting is hunting... and combat is combat.

Hunting is about making ONE good shot on an animal. It is like sniping... firing from concealment or from a long distance. If you are going to make ONE shot on a large game animal, you need that bullet to be big, heavy, and powerful. Thus, really big game is taken with 458, 416, 375, etc...

I wouldn't really call it combat... I'd liken it more to self-defense. And the lawyers at ADF&G treat a DLP (defense of life and property) shoot of a bear more like a homicide investigation than most people would think. Using terms like 'combat' are ill-advised, even if there is a small ring of truth to it...

Defending yourself against a large charging animal is not hunting, it is combat. And all militaries all over the world went to autoloading weapons a long time ago. In my view, the best bear/lion/tiger/bison/rhino defense weapon would be an M-240 machine gun loaded with armor penetrating 7.62x51... The idea is to put as many shots onto the moving target as possible.

Since there are legal and practical limitations to lugging a 25+ lb machine gun through the bush, we can look to the second choices.

The second choice would be a good semi-automatic military pattern rifle in 7.62x51... M1A, AR-10 style, FN FAL, etc. Another grand choice mould be an M1 garand.

In your view, you may be right. But reality is often different than our own biased views of what an ideal gun/cartridge is for such a situation. A .308 Win/7.62 NATO is a reliable man-stopper, it has proven to be so in combat for decades. The problem your theory has, again, is reality. You're talking about stopping a charging bear that weighs 1200+ pounds, running at you at 30mph... Forgive me if I don't endorse a .308...

Your counter-argument will likely be that you have 20+ rounds of .308 available in such a weapon... Again, your theory doesn't take reality into account... You will have time for 1-2 shots from any weapon. This isn't an open-battlefield charge by an opposing army or militia. This is a 1200+ pound bear at 30mph, at 25-50yds. You won't see them before that, and if you do; leave the area. 1-2, maybe three shots. These should be well-aimed, because you can't miss fast enough to stop a bear.

Another good choice MIGHT be an AR-10 style rifle re-chambered in 338 federal... 225 grain bullet with significantly more energy than a 220 grain 30-06.... as long as the recoil is not so excessive that followup shots are slow.

Again, your theory contradicts reality.

There's only about a 200ft/lb difference in energy between 200gr projectiles from both calibers. I can't imagine that 5gr would increase that margin any significant amount.

You're talking about (.338 Federal) a cartridge with a .308 Win case, necked-up to accept a .338 bullet... The .30/06 case is much longer, and puts the bullet out of the muzzle 100-300fps faster than a .338 Federal...

All of that to say this; .338 Federal and .30/06 are basically equal in this whiz contest...

A Bennelli 12 gage auto loaded with slugs and/or 000 buckshot... that might be the best choice of all.

Slugs. Buckshot does not have sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs, much less cause the instant blood-loss shock needed to stop the bear. And if you think buckshot has a snoball's chance in hell of getting through the bear's thick skull, you have another thing coming, and it's a ticked off bear with buckshot imbedded in its fur...

 

[sc928porsche]

Since you mentioned that you would be fishing instead of hunting a sidearm would be best for that situation. You should have something chambered in 44mag or 454 casull, or even the new 500mag.

You will need to spend a lot of time on the range getting used to the way the firearm handles. Remember, your first shot is the most important and has to be delivered in a variety of positions. Practice, practice, practice and then practice some more.

Once you have become proficient, carrying it during fishing isn't a problem. I personally prefer a cross draw so that my rod can be used without the firearm interfering with its operation.

Although I live in Alabama, it was not always the case. Most of my time was spent in the Sierras and Rockys (Yes, they have dangerous critters in the Sierras too). Even down here that have a black bear or two and even some onery hogs.

 

[HALLAUSTIN]

I would opt for a jet pack