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The aftermath - realistic assessments of the situation please
- Thread starter simonrichter
- Start date
Lets take it further.
Lets say that you are a veteran returning from Afghanistan and you have PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You've served several tours of duty and you are now home and you want to buy a gun.
PTSD is a mental illness and many shooters in the past who have committed murder have had PTSD while 99% have not committed murder (yet).
So, now we have someone who served his country with emphasis on using a firearm and now that he's home, what should his psychiatrist say based on the vets PTSD alone?
Edit: Should a Veteran have to make the choice between getting help for his PTSD and his right to own a firearm?
Lets say that you are a veteran returning from Afghanistan and you have PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You've served several tours of duty and you are now home and you want to buy a gun.
PTSD is a mental illness and many shooters in the past who have committed murder have had PTSD while 99% have not committed murder (yet).
So, now we have someone who served his country with emphasis on using a firearm and now that he's home, what should his psychiatrist say based on the vets PTSD alone?
Edit: Should a Veteran have to make the choice between getting help for his PTSD and his right to own a firearm?
BikeNGun1974
New member
The tragedy in Newtown was/is horrible and definitely a watershed moment that has caused this gun enthusiast to seriously reassess this long time gun enthusiasts beliefs.
If an event like this, which is only about a half a degree off from other mass murders that have happened in the past, caused anyone to rethink their beliefs, they haven't thought their beliefs through very well.
The tragedy in Newtown was/is horrible and definitely a watershed moment that has caused this gun enthusiast to seriously reassess this long time gun enthusiasts beliefs.
I said I was questioning my beliefs regarding firearms, I didn't say that I'd completely lost my mind.
I also admitted that nothing I said is etched in stone or that anything I'm suggesting is fully baked just yet and I said I needed time.
I know what I'm questioning myself about, doesn't mean I've changed my mind on it. I also know what I find completely out of the question.
I seem to recall that the impetus for the very stringent gun control laws throughout most of the UK was a highly publicized school shooting in Scotland, so the UK isn't immune to it either
There were two incidents that lead to strict gun controls in the UK. The first ban was on semi-auto rifles except .22.
Crimes That Shook Britain: The Hungerford Massacre
8 May 2012 13:50
One August afternoon in 1987, a heavily-armed Michael Robert Ryan shot and killed sixteen people - including his own mother - before turning a gun on himself. It remains one of the worst shooting atrocities in British history.
The seckond lead to the ban on handguns.
Shortly after 9 a.m. on March 13, 1996, Thomas Hamilton, a 43-year-old former Scout leader, burst into the gymnasium of a primary school in the tranquil Scottish town of Dunblane.
Within minutes 15 children aged five and six had died in a hail of bullets. One died later in hospital. Their teacher, Gwen Mayor, a 44-year-old mother of two, died in the attack, reportedly while trying to shield her pupils. Two other teachers were also seriously injured while heroically trying to protect children. Hamilton turned one of his four handguns on himself and was found dead at the scene.
It didn't stop other incidents.
Twelve people have been killed and 25 injured by a gunman who opened fire in west Cumbria.
A body thought to be that of the suspect - taxi driver Derrick Bird - has been found in the Boot area.
Lets take it further.
Lets say that you are a veteran returning from Afghanistan and you have PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You've served several tours of duty and you are now home and you want to buy a gun.
I don't have the answers. All cases would be accessed individually. The other option is that someone with a history of mental illness and violence can get firearms without any checks. Would you like them living next door to you or next door to the school your children go to. ?
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Manta, let me explain. I'm not jumping on you and I'm sorry if it appeared that way. My nerves are a little bit frayed.
I know about those two mass killings in the UK and there are terrible.
They were no less terrible than the shooting in Newtown and I'm struggling with processing this latest massacre.
The fact remains that the USA is not the same as the UK. The Constitution is like the bible here. That's not to say that there aren't safeguards to change the Constitution if the need arises but it is something that almost never happens. At least not in recent times.
Any regulations that are put in place in the United States require the steady hand of a very precise surgeon. It is more about tweaks and mild alterations to preserve, to the best of our ability, the rights of EVERY American.
These "Grand scheme tweaks" are going to seem like monumentus changes to millions of people and it is important to recognize that.
I said what I meant and I am questioning what it is I really believe but questioning oneself is a very positive thing to do always. It means that one still has an open mind.
I believe that some changes have to be made and I believe that SOME changes are coming whether we like it or not. My questioning myself leaves me open to the possibility of having a voice in the changes that will be made rather than sticking my fingers in my ears and yelling "I can't hear you."
I know about those two mass killings in the UK and there are terrible.
They were no less terrible than the shooting in Newtown and I'm struggling with processing this latest massacre.
The fact remains that the USA is not the same as the UK. The Constitution is like the bible here. That's not to say that there aren't safeguards to change the Constitution if the need arises but it is something that almost never happens. At least not in recent times.
Any regulations that are put in place in the United States require the steady hand of a very precise surgeon. It is more about tweaks and mild alterations to preserve, to the best of our ability, the rights of EVERY American.
These "Grand scheme tweaks" are going to seem like monumentus changes to millions of people and it is important to recognize that.
I said what I meant and I am questioning what it is I really believe but questioning oneself is a very positive thing to do always. It means that one still has an open mind.
I believe that some changes have to be made and I believe that SOME changes are coming whether we like it or not. My questioning myself leaves me open to the possibility of having a voice in the changes that will be made rather than sticking my fingers in my ears and yelling "I can't hear you."
As I said earlier:
Suggestion to Mental Health Issues:
Takes the responsibility away from health professionals who would lose the trust of those individuals needing counseling the most.
Suggestion to Mental Health Issues:
- Parents/Guardians/Relatives can register with FBI
- Unstable, violent, or mentally ill can be flagged for no firearm purchase
- Individual can only be removed from list by those listed above willing to accept legal prosecution for their actions.
Takes the responsibility away from health professionals who would lose the trust of those individuals needing counseling the most.
DanWesson357
New member
Mantra1
It didn't stop other incidents.
Wait, what? My understanding was that gun violence was VERY low in the UK?
It didn't stop other incidents.
Wait, what? My understanding was that gun violence was VERY low in the UK?
I don't have the answers. All cases would be accessed individually. The other option is that someone with a history of mental illness and violence can get firearms without any checks. Would you like them living next door to you or next door to the school your children go to. ?
I know you don't have the answers and neither do I. In theory what you are proposing is quite palatable, the problem is that theory and practice are often two very different things.
It also goes to show how many little details have to be addressed before any law or rule is imposed on anyone.
One "monumentus" change happened in the 20th century when Spirits were outlawed and the United States became a "Dry" country. That was a mistake of epic proportions because it wasn't well thought out and it wasn't addressing any of the very basic underlying issues. It sounded great in theory but in practice it lead to Al Capone and the rise of multitudes of bootleggers and street gangs along with some of our most violent history.
Any change that are made require a very well thought out and delicate touch or we'll make things even worse rather then better.
Manta, let me explain. I'm not jumping on you and I'm sorry if it appeared that way. My nerves are a little bit frayed.
No problem i don't think you are jumping on me.
I know about those two mass killings in the UK and there are terrible.
They were no less terrible than the shooting in Newtown and I'm struggling with processing this latest massacre
I don't think the gun controls in the UK made any difference. My point there are different thinks that can be done that might help without gun control.
Wait, what? My understanding was that gun violence was VERY low in the UK?
It is compared with other countries. If gun control has any thing to do with it i don't know. But i don't think so.
Quote.
The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 (over 40 times higher) and to Germany's 0.21 (3 times higher.
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DanWesson357
New member
I would honestly argue that it did. The difference is that in the UK, guns and gun culture were never nearly as prevalent. Thus, less guns overall on the streets and such. In order for a similar gun ban to work in the U.S., it would require some serious overhaul to our gun trafficking and such. And if we couldn't win the War on Drugs or the War on Alcohol, how do we win that? It would have to be very thoroughly planned and executed.
Some of the checks carried out in the UK.
Checks on previous convictions are carried out as are local police checks. Areas such as domestic violence are also taken into account. These checks are always made at the point of application for either a grant or renewal of certificate. Also checks are made on a daily basis of all those persons who are arrested to identify certificate holders whose continued suitability to hold a certificate may be called into question.
There are certain prohibitions from the possession of firearms (including shotguns and air weapons). This means that certain people are not only prohibited from possessing their own guns, but would also be prohibited, for example, to take part in clay pigeon shoots, or possessing guns on a shooting range.
In simple terms, the following applies:
•Any person sentenced to serve between three months and three years is prohibited from possessing any firearm for a period of five years, from the date on which they are released from prison.
•Any person sentenced to serve a prison sentence of three years or more is prohibited as above for life (unless the prohibition is lifted by the Crown Court
Checks on previous convictions are carried out as are local police checks. Areas such as domestic violence are also taken into account. These checks are always made at the point of application for either a grant or renewal of certificate. Also checks are made on a daily basis of all those persons who are arrested to identify certificate holders whose continued suitability to hold a certificate may be called into question.
There are certain prohibitions from the possession of firearms (including shotguns and air weapons). This means that certain people are not only prohibited from possessing their own guns, but would also be prohibited, for example, to take part in clay pigeon shoots, or possessing guns on a shooting range.
In simple terms, the following applies:
•Any person sentenced to serve between three months and three years is prohibited from possessing any firearm for a period of five years, from the date on which they are released from prison.
•Any person sentenced to serve a prison sentence of three years or more is prohibited as above for life (unless the prohibition is lifted by the Crown Court
DanWesson357
New member
If I want to own a firearm in the UK, I have to join a club, yes?
If I want to own a firearm in the UK, I have to join a club, yes?
No rifles shotguns etc can be got for hunting without being in a club. if you want a firearm for target shooting a (M/4 single shot only). for example you need to be in a club. If you want a handgun in N Ireland you need to be in a club unless you have one for personal protection.
There certainly does not seem to be enough historians in this group. To agree that something needs to be done about the current laws is to begin admitting that guns are the problem. Once we do this, if history is a measuring stick, we are within a decade of all firearms and firearm ownership being illegal.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
Its my understanding that the UK has always had significantly lower gun violence even when their gun laws mirrored america's. Since their effective ban on guns, I've read that their overall gun violence has in fact gone up.
You can't compare the US to the UK for a variety of reasons. You can only compare Pre-ban to Post-ban numbers. I mean the UK had very little to no resistance in the confiscation of their firearms and bans, but if the UK laws were implemented in America, a lot of law-abiding citizens would not act so kindly...
You can't compare the US to the UK for a variety of reasons. You can only compare Pre-ban to Post-ban numbers. I mean the UK had very little to no resistance in the confiscation of their firearms and bans, but if the UK laws were implemented in America, a lot of law-abiding citizens would not act so kindly...