The 9mm vs 45 ACP Debate: A Visual Aid...

I have no reason for my choice of the 45ACP other than I like it
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I'll go one further with this; I have no reason for 45 acp other than I like it OUT OF A FULLSIZE 1911.

As a kid, we shot revolvers and 22's.

My first 9mm was a Chinese Tokarev in 9mm. Now, don't laugh or criticize, it's a thin steel frame pistol with a 4.5 inch barrel, and operates almost the same as a 1911. The grip angle is a little more vertical than most semi's, but again, coming from a revolver, was a non-issue. That gun shot well, and it felt "about right".

My friend brought a Thompson Contender, and we shot 45 ACP out of it. I felt like that was a little harsh... I didn't think about the physics at the time, so I steered away from 45 awhile. After later shooting a 1911 GI, it seemed to me that the recoil was pretty similar to the Tok in 9mm.

As for the caliber debate, I think modern smokeless ammo (the stuff that the semiautos were designed for) eliminate most of the shortcomings of the old "38 isn't enough" arguments. 9 x 19 is plenty effective for it's purposes, just as .45 acp is. Neither are particularly great options as an offensive round.
 
Has the 10mm proven itself better against human targets?

Is there substantial evidence or just small amounts of antidotal evidence?
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I have witnessed the 10mm round act as a man stopper... The price of the ammo has stopped me from buying it many times! :p
 
10mm, not only will it poke big holes in a bad guy,
the 3' flame going out the end of the barrel & big boom
will make all his homies run like heck.

The same can definitely be said for .50AE out of a Desert Eagle...
But that thing is ruddy expensive to shoot...
Used it vs some brick throwing hooligans by firing into an old oak tree,
never saw anyone run that fast before, literally none even slowed down until
after they made the next street & ran down it ;)

Upside, full-size pistols make for increased accuracy and best bullet performance.

Downside, neither is very conducive to concealed carry...
even the G29 is a fat little rascal...

So...I carry most often, .45acp's...with extra mags...
secondary carry (light clothing days) are 9mm's & 7.65-Browning pistols...
Main thing is carrying those which you shoot WELL.
 
I carry a 30SF or 29SF in summer, not hard to conceal appendix IWB.
My 5 shot averages.
Glock 30SF
Federal Hydra-Shok 230 gr. @ 811 fps / 336# KE / PF 187
Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 903 fps /417# KE / PF 208
Federal Hydra-Shok 185 +P @ 1,005 fps / 415# KE / PF 186
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,008 fps / 418# KE / PF 186

Glock 29 SF
Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,231 fps / 505# KE / PF 185
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,256 fps / 543# KE / PF 195
Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,083 fps / 456# KE / PF 190

Note the PF calculation, if you don't select the most nuclear ammo available, 10mm recoil is comparable to 45 acp +P

To preempt any comments about "real" 10mm ammo (excluding "botique" loadings) the 175 Silvertip is generally revered as "real" 10mm.
The short barrel Glock 29 doesn't generate velocities like longer barrels.
In this test Silvertip 175 gr. 10mm @ 1,045 fps average (424# KE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNXe7qYL04c
 
"In this test Silvertip 175 gr. 10mm @ 1,045 fps average (424# KE)".

Sivertips aren't anywhere near full-spec 10mm. Underwood loadings are low to mid 700's of ft-lbs.
 
Actually folks look at the expansion difference between the 9mm, .40, and .45.

Note they all expanded very well but....

How deep before they started expanding? See the damage done is caused by the VOLUME of destruction.

Volume is the area of the bullet and the length of the wound channel (but again, different expansion rates, different volume.)

It is obvious from photos of the wound tracks that the .357 Sig, on up, generated much greater volume of destruction.

Deaf
 
People to say that energy differences in handgun rounds don't matter, but I'm not buying it. (Not specific to 10mm)

38 Special +P temporary cavity at 1:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRe6BzIqu6U

357 Sig temporary cavity at 3:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kLkpIljrNA

Same bullet diameter, much more damage to the media.
May not be exactly the same in tissue, but would still be a difference.
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And the MYTH lives on....:cool:

With handgun impact velocities there is NO temporary wound cavity damage. Human tissue is too elastic to be damaged by the low velocity passage of the bullet.

Gel tests are ONLY meaningful as a way to compare depth and expansion between two different bullets. It simply provides a means of comparing apples to apples, by providing a consistant test medium. It does NOT, in any way, represent wounding ability in tissue. Its not suspossed to represent flesh, just be a constant for testing different projectiles.

Now, if we step up to rifle rounds (>~2100fps), now we see actual tearing of tissue outside the wound channel. That is damage from the temp cavity. Defensive Handgun bullets only damage what they touch....period.

So, while temp cavity is cool to watch in gel....it does not translate into damage in living tissue.
 
9mm vs. .45acp suddenly now we're talking 10mm, .357sig, 357mag and so on. Thread got way off track.
 
He is right that the temporary cavity does not leave significant damage to areas not contacted by the bullet. It does, however, cause physical shock to the target. A bit to the sternum will traumatize the lungs, a hit in the belly will smash the kidneys around, etc . A bit on something only causes damage at that place,for the most part. That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt like hell, and that even a total failure to hit vital areas won't still knock a person to his knees, just by blowing through his ribs and tearing up his other tissues.

A bit with a bow (no razor sharp broadheads!) probably the same damage as a nonexpaning nine mm. Make that nine a good hp round, and that thing will hit a lot harder, as far Caspian and stunning system shock.
 
Sivertips aren't anywhere near full-spec 10mm. Underwood loadings are low to mid 700's of ft-lbs.
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Can those loads be shot from a stock Glock or Colt Delta Elite?

"In this test Silvertip 175 gr. 10mm @ 1,045 fps average (424# KE)".
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The Silvertip does better from a Glock 20 in this example 1,170 fps / 533# KE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNL30om6Eo

Jan 2013 GunTests magazine tested 155 XTP and 175 Silvertip from a 5'' barrel.
155 XTP @ 1,360 / 636# KE (25 fps faster than from my Glock 20)
175 Silvertip @ 1,175 fps / 536# KE

April 2016 American Rifleman tested Sig 220 with 5'' barrel
175 Silvertip @ 1,196 fps / 556# KE
Federal Trophy Bonded 180 gr. 1,248 fps / 622# KE (most powerful load tested)

My 5 shot averages:
Glock 20 SF
Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,276 fps / 542# KE
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,335 fps / 614# KE
Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,146 fps / 510# KE

Glock 29 SF
Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,231 fps / 505# KE (-45 fps)
Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,256 fps / 543# KE (-79 fps)
Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,083 fps / 456# KE (-63 fps)

If speed of follow up shots is a consideration, as in a SD situation, a power factor (PF) exceeding much past 200 is likely a negative.
Glock 20: Hornady 175 gr. Critical Duty @ 1,146 fps / 510# KE / PF 201
Glock 20: Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,335 fps / 614# KE / PF 207
Glock 21: Federal HST 230 gr. @ 863 fps / 380# KE / PF 198
Glock 21: Winchester Ranger T 230 gr. @ 931 fps / 443# KE / PF 214

Underwood 10mm 155 XTP from a 4.5'' barrel @ 1,454 fps is a PF of 225 !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_iF2Mcfr5c

Underwood 10mm 180 - Glock 20 @ 1,328 fps / 705# KE / PF 239 !! :eek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY
 
"Can those loads be shot from a stock Glock or Colt Delta Elite?"

Underwood says not to use their 10mm ammo in the Delta Elite ... they make some downloaded ammo for them. I don't think that Underwood includes Glock in that warning. DoubleTap and BuffaloBore don't have any such warnings, as best I remember.

I think Underwood also warns against using their .44special in the BullDog.
 
With handgun impact velocities there is NO temporary wound cavity damage. Human tissue is too elastic to be damaged by the low velocity passage of the bullet
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With such a fluid and dynamic science of external ballistics and the infinite variables that is human anatomy it's extremely foolish to say any 1 factor is absolute. You can only look at tendencies bigger holes tend to work better than smaller holes, deeper holes tend to work better than shallower holes and the more you stretch tissue the more likely it is that it will cause permanent damage.
 
For tens of thousands of years everyone believed the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth. It was just logical and few questioned that it might not be true. But eventually the proof could no longer be ignored.

Today many really believe a bigger bullet is more effective than a smaller one. Back when guns fired round balls with black powder there was some truth to this. Black powder gives about the same speed regardless of caliber and the only way to make a round ball heavier was to go up in diameter.

Conical bullets and modern powder changed all that. You can make a bullet heavier by making it longer instead of larger in diameter, jacketed bullets penetrate better than soft lead, and speed does kill.

A lot of "experts" had a hard time grasping the concept and a lot of false information has been written about the subject for at least 100 years. But if you look at all the actual tests, studies, and research there has never been any data showing 45 to be significantly more effective than 9mm when comparable ammo is chosen. Really, a .45" hole is still a small hole, in the grand scheme of things a .35" hole isn't that much smaller.

10mm, I'm a fan. But don't think it offers enough advantage on human threats to offset the added recoil and cost. Loaded with heavy bullets such as the 200 gr DoubleTap hardcast @1300 fps it is a realistic large game or predator defense round at close range. While still offering the versatility of shooting 40 S&W level loads for human threats.
 
The problem with jelly is that it is a semi rigid substance that doesn't even remotely resemble tissues. A permanent cavity doesn't exit, the term is nonsense. There is no hole left. What is left behind is torn areas caused by the explosive energy dunp. Shoot an animal, and you don't find a hole. Just the bullet hole. If you fold a brisket, it folds, but a gel block will snap.

An expansion cavity is a balloon, for the mos part. You won't leave anything larger than a caliber sized hole in beef, it is stringy and tough you mY tear a liver a bit, but it will still just expand and fall back.

There may be some areas where this expansion will tear a few serious veins, tear up a little extra tissues, so forth, but you can't take gel results and use them to calculate damage to tissues. At the very least look at a block and the explosive cavity formed from back to front. Why does the entry wound measure larger than bullet diameter?
 
I've just got to say it again. Gel testing isn't remotely like a genuine hit. It's a completely different medium. It does, however, work well enough. We can take the data and work with it to learn what the bullet will do. It will usually do o about the same thing (the bullet) if it hits gel or flesh.
 
I have fancy bullets in 9mm and 45 acp. I have a lot of FMJ in both. When I carry my 9mm I carry fancy bullets, and when I carry my 45 I mostly carry 230 gr FMJ. I figure the 45 ACP 230 gr FMJ has worked for over 100 years. All that being said in my 63 years I have never been in a gun fight and I hope my next 63 years will be the same.
 
I knew a guy once who said that he would never shoot anything but his shiny round ball ammo 45. He said that they looked cool and scary, and that whoever he pointed them at would think twice. Yep, he was a complete moron.

If you want to carry ball, that's fine, you're shooting something that as you said, has put down literally hundreds of thousands of living critters. I'd still suggest defensive ammo. Afterwards they may give you the bullet as a souvenir to hang on your keys.
 
It will usually do o about the same thing (the bullet) if it hits gel or flesh.
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WRONG...gel does not react at all like flesh it was never designed to and all it WILL do is allow us to shoot and compare bullet X with bullet Y in a consistent medium. Gel is NOT a tissue simulant. Its just NOT.

Brother, i wish i could get defensive handgun ammo to work in people like it works in gel. But its just not the reality of the situation. Handgun hunters understand this and (ethical ones) make great efforts to place the WOUND TRACK thru vital areas.

Certainly, with the low power defensive rounds (9mm, 40, 45, ect) there cannot be any stretch/temp cavity wounding in elastic tissue, and MOST tissue IS elastic.

Hits in non elastic tissue MAY show some radial destruction, but those areas are already easily destroyed. The Brain is a great example. Non-elastic organ that can show temp cavity damage. But you know what....the hit would have been debilitating WITHOUT the additional damage.

Someone said a hit will still cause the badguy to "fall to his knees". What hogwash...any mild study of the subject of terminal handgun ballistics will quickly show there is NO SUCH THING as "knockdown power".

That is yet another 1980's (the world is flat) vision of what we hoped was true. No science just wishful thinking perpetrated by Hollywood
 
Barrel length matters more than caliber.

A couple of years ago I did some ballistics testing of two carry guns I had at the time (I've sold both since).
I tested a Ruger LC9 against s Ruger LCR. LC9 has a barrel length of '3.12. LCR a barrel length of '1.875.
I tested both velocity and penetration using a chronograph and a soaked newspapers (performs similar to ballistic gel but can't measure stretch cavity.)
I shot 38special 158 gn hollow point and fmj from the LCR in both standard pressure and +p. And for the LC9 I shot 124 gn hollow point and fmj in both standard pressure and +p. Used a couple different brands. Fiiochi, Remington and magtec were in the mix as memory serves.
Results? From those guns in those barrel lengths the 38 special standard pressure was going faster and penetrated deeper than the 9mm in those barrel lengths. The 38 special +p similarly outperformed the 9mm +p in those barrel lengths. Went faster and penetrated deeper.
So then I put some of the 9mm ammo into my full size canik and tested it (trying to figure out why the 9mm was performing do poorly.) It was substantially faster and penetrated substantially deeper than the 38 special from that full size gun.
My conclusion? 9mm needs the full barrel length to really get its velocity going. I don't know about some of these recently available short barrel loads. They might resolve the problem. But after that I sold the LC9 and carried my LCR until I recently traded it for an LCRx 3 inch.
Incidentally I also tested 357 mag from the LCR and found that it wasn't much faster than 38 special +p from that '1.875 barrel. But kicked a lot more and had a huge muzzle flash. I concluded that the flash was a lot of powder burning after the bullet left the barrel.

What was the point of telling all that? Barrel length (and other factors almost ad infinitum) matter more than caliber. Best do your own testing with your own guns to see what is working. You might be surprised.
 
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