The 9mm vs 45 ACP Debate: A Visual Aid...

When it comes to calibers, I fall back on the wisdom of Colion Noir.....

"A 9mm will kill your body....but a .45 will kill your soul....."

.....and the .40 makes you bi.

So....the main reason I carry a 9mm is that I'm a straight underachiever.
 
Hopefully this debate (9mm verses .45 ACP) never ends. If it does, it means we have reached the end of the world as we know it.

IMhO Joshua 2415 you are wise beyond your post count.
 
I always have and always will prefer .45, although i really really like .40S&W.

I can only affors one quality handgun, and i may need this handgun to put deer meat in the freezer, or stop a mt. Lion or wolf or black bear attack. This is why i chose a .45acp.

Besides if i happen to run out of 7.62x39, my pistol will then be primary hunting tool (in bad scenario where there is no supermarket to get food, and no 911 to save you)
 
The numbers...

The 45 is barely bigger than the nickel, so its not dime vs quarter, but dime vs nickel.

Its been said before... Real world numbers point to there being almost no difference in effectiveness between them.

(I would venture than all pistol calibers between .3 and .45 inch, with a velocity under ~1800fps, are likely to perform roughly the same. Any calibers that deviate from that, are likely, and should be treated as, anomalies in the data... until the caliber and anomaly can be analyzed more thoroughly to verify or refute the difference)


As to effectiveness...

For a physiological stop, all calibers perform the same.

For stopping a determined attacker, it simply remains that a pistol round is basically ineffective unless it hits something important.

If that is the case, the fraction of an inch difference in expanded aize between calibers, does not come into play, except in rare extreme edge cases. The "if only that bullet had hit a quarter inch to the right, the bad guy would have been stopped" cases...

But such cases are not actually significant, not because they are rare, but as it is focusing on the wrong aspect of the situation. (reminds me of the time in WWII the military wanted to add armor to bombers to increase their survival chances. Adding too much weight is bad, so they had to protect only important areas. They looked at planes returning to base to see where they were being hit the most, and put armor there... and it did nothing to improve survivability. Because the areas they armored were not important, as the planes hit in those places obviously returned to base... Its a neat story about a mathematician setting the military straight on how they were looking at the situation wrong... faulty logic)


A miss is a miss, no matter how close.

Saying that a larger round would have been wide enough to turn the miss into a hit is also pointless... As changing the caliber would have changed everything... Lower capacity may mean that shot was never able to be fired (if the shot was like shot 17)... Dynamics of the different pistol, ballistics, and recoil characteristics means that the exact same shot would never happen anyway.

Its attributing significance after the fact, and that is a logical fallacy.

When accuracy is king and proper penetration is queen, then maximizing both is the goal.

So picking a pistol that handles well, is easy to shoot, has high capacity to maximize potential chances at a hit, and one that can be effectively fired quickly... that is the goal.

9mm for most shooters is easier to shoot both accurately and quickly than other common pistol rounds. It has higher capacity than other calibers in similar size pistols, and it has adequate and reliable penetration with good bullet selection.



As far as the standard vs +p debate goes...

Most modern hollowpoint designs get the same and sometimes better penetration from standard pressure rounds compared to +p... From all the tests I have seen, +P is pretty much obsolete in usefulness.

Now in short barrel pistols, it may still be a better choice... many new bullet designs I have seen recently also challenges that niche as well.

I have seen things like the xtreme defender loads from Lehigh defense do very well out of short barrel pistols.

Some loads are +P, but some of the downsides of +P are negated by the lighter bullets. Blast is still higher, but recoil and subsequent wear on the pistol is similar to standard pressure loads.
 
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I must be different

I guess I must be different. I can shoot the 45acp more accurately than I can 9mm. Doesn't matter which gun, I can shoot any of my 45's better than all of my 9mm's. Not sure why.
 
I can shoot the 45acp more accurately than I can 9mm. Doesn't matter which gun, I can shoot any of my 45's better than all of my 9mm's.
I can shoot my .45 better than any striker fired pistol. It's the trigger pull.

But that's in shooting at a target for accuracy and precision.

When one is trying to hit a moving target several times in very rapid succession, as in defensive shooting, that kind of accuracy doesn't count. What counts is rapidity of controlled fire. And that's largely a matter of recoil.
 
this is why God invented the 10mm; to end the debate of 9mm vs. 45acp vs. 40s&w. now, for those unable to handle the 10mm, the debate will rage on...:p
 
+1 for Jerrys. Why are we even talking about 45 and 9mm when there are now so many different 10mm handguns out there to choose from?
 
Has the 10mm proven itself better against human targets?

Is there substantial evidence or just small amounts of antidotal evidence?
 
with many choices for a sidearm, the Danish police/military carry the Glock 20 (10mm) because of Polar Bear encounters in Greenland.
... but I doubt that a handgun round chosen for defense against Polar Bears will prove better against a human attacker.
 
Bullets that work well on bears do not work well on people.

Bears need deep penetration and a tougher bullet, not the best choice for human targets.

Also, service firearms for military... means FMJ.

So that 10mm they use has good penetration for use against bear using FMJ ammo.


So it has no bearing on how well 10mm works against human targets.


10mm can make for a good hunting round if you choose appropriate bullet types for the game.

For human targets, the energy it has does not provide a benefit, as the bullet has to conform to the 12-18" standard.

The energy involved is not enough for secondary wounding like a rifle... so it's all just flash and recoil that slows down effective follow up shots.

So I ain't buying the 10mm is better argument.
 
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If I ever find a handgun that doesn't put a big hole in a piece of living meat, I just won't buy it. So far that seems to be only rimfire, and 25&32 acp. I don't care what I have, I'm gonna shoot the bad guy and he's gonna get hurt. As far as me getting killed, isn't that sort of in the hands of a higher power than a .45?
 
Over thirty years ago I was shot in the leg, accidentally, with a .22 LR from a range of approximately 50 yards. The bullet penetrated both my denim pant leg and the top of a leather cowboy boot I was wearing. It entered the lower leg, cracking the tibia lengthwise (that's the shin for all you Grays Anatomy fans). The bullet broke up into several pieces and is still in my tibia to this day. The country Doc who attended me said it would be too extensive a surgery to remove the bullet fragments, and the bone would heal around them. So far I have had no ill effects from the gunshot wound, but I can tell you it had me in the hospital for a week afterwards, and it was a painful experience.

I do know personally of one gentleman who accidentally shot himself in the leg with a 40 S&W loaded with an XTP bullet. He is quite lucky to have survived with his leg somewhat intact, but shorter.

Another gentlemen I knew was out practicing his Cowboy Action shooting by himself a number of years ago, and accidentally shot himself in the gut. He tried to drive himself to town, but didn't make it, bleeding to death in his truck. The pistol was a 45 Long Colt, reduced load cast bullet.

From these life experiences, I have come to two simple conclusions.

#1 is I really don't care to get shot with anything, ever again. Ballistics tests are approximations at best.

#2 is I have no argument with whatever it is that anyone wishes to carry. A .22 might do in a pinch if that is all you have at hand, and it is far better than nothing. Whatever caliber / platform you are comfortable and proficient with, have at it.
 
marine6680 said:
Most modern hollowpoint designs get the same and sometimes better penetration from standard pressure rounds compared to +p... From all the tests I have seen, +P is pretty much obsolete in usefulness.

Now in short barrel pistols, it may still be a better choice... many new bullet designs I have seen recently also challenges that niche as well.
In practice, most of the extra energy of a +P load is wated out of a short barrel. That's why the bullet makers have now started loading special ammo for use in handguns wth short barrels. They use bullets designed to expand at lower velocities, rather than relying on "standard" velocities to expand.

Several years ago I set out to measure the muzzle velocity loss as barrel length got shorter. I didn't have a test barrel I could chop down an inch at a time (as in "Ballistics by the Inch"), so I gathered up a set of 1911s with barrel lengths of 5", 4-1/4", 3-1/2" and 3". I had samples of half a dozen different commercial loads. I set up a chronograph at 10 feet from the firing line and started shooting with the 5" pistol.

Once I was finished with the 5" pistol, I moved down to the 4-1/4". When I then progressed to the 3-1/2" pistol, things went awry. Instead of getting velocity readings, I started getting "ERR" messages on the screen. This happened with maybe half the loads I was testing. When I switched to the 3" pistol, almost all the loads generated "ERR" messages.

I repeated the test sequence with the chronograph placed 15 feet from the muzzle and got no errors. So what happened? My theory, with which others have agreed, is that combustion of the propellant (powder) isn't instantaneous -- it continues while the bullet travels down the barrel. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure is no longer contained, and continued powder burn accomplishes nothing -- it's wasted. What my experiment accidentally found was that some loads, shot from short barrels, had enough powder still burning after the bullet left the barrel that it was enough to disrupt the chronograph at a distance of ten feet. Moving the screen out to fifteen feet allowed the burning powder to dissipate enough that it didn't disrupt the chronograph.

I'm pretty certain that +P loads out of short barrels would create the same problem. Much of the extra energy of the +P loading would be lost because the pressure would still be increasing when the bullet leaves the barrel, and any powder not burned at that point would be wasted. You'd get a bigger BANG and a lot more muzzle flash, but not much additional velocity.
 
Marine6680 said:
For human targets, the energy it has does not provide a benefit, as the bullet has to conform to the 12-18" standard.

You can get whatever penetration you want in .44mag by choosing the appropriate bullet weight. Underwood makes a .44mag 180gr JHP ... EXTREMELY good for bad 2-legged critters. In the winter when the bears are asleep here, I mix 180gr, 200gr, and 240gr JHP's in my .44mag carry gun. Summertime gets all 240gr JHP's, which are NOT the optimum bear load OR 2-legged load, but it's a good compromise between the two.
 
Aquila_Blanca said:
You'd get a bigger BANG and a lot more muzzle flash, but not much additional velocity.

DEFINITELY wasn't true for my S&W360sc scandium/titanium ultralight snubby that I cronoed years ago. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but the difference between shooting mid-range .357 (Federal Hi-Shoks) vs .38 or .8+P in it were very significant (something like 30% higher velocity and 80% higher energy). But that wasn't a surprise to me ... the recoil was ENORMOUSLY greater for the .357 ... and that extra momentum transferred to my hand was directly balanced by the extra momentum given to the bullet ... loud noise and bright flash translate (by themselves) into very little recoil.
 
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