The 9mm vs 45 ACP Debate: A Visual Aid...

When the bullet technology improves and the .380 is adequate will we all switch to it

The problem with that is the current crop of 380pistols are mostly blowback designs. They recoil harder then 9mm locked breach pistols.

Given ammo that performs to the needed standard AND pistols that can shoot that ammo in lower recoiling pistols, say a Glock 25....then yeah. Go for it

If i could have a pistol with ZERO recoil and it would drive its bullet to a consistent and effective depth...id switch tomorrow. Im no longer restrained by what the Agency decides is best for me.

I, and most here, have free choice.
 
YOU CAN'T DETERMINE BULLET DIAMETER FROM A WOUND IN SOFT TISSUE.
Agreed, but that's not even close to what I said. What I said was "Expanding projectiles create very different wound tracks and wounding effects from non-expanding projectiles even when the final diameter of the two rounds is quite similar. "
I've seen extensive damage outside of expanded bullet diameter many times well below the 2000fps threshold that everybody wants to draw a line in the sand at.
Yes, there can definitely be damage as the result of temporary cavity.

1. If you define damage as bloodshot tissue. The temporary cavity is roughly equivalent to blunt trauma and can cause bruising/bloodshot tissue.

2. If the tissue involved is inelastic and can not stretch/rebound. Under those circumstances the tissue breaks and tears. A lot of the body is elastic tissue, but organs like the brain, spleen, liver, and kidneys, to name a few, are inelastic and can be damaged by temporary cavity.

The problem is that temporary cavity, below some threshold (I'm not going to be dogmatic about 2000fps being that threshold since it seems unlikely that something magic happens at the round number of 2000) becomes an UNRELIABLE wounding mechanism. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. And as you get lower and lower below the threshold it becomes more and more unreliable until it's hardly worth talking about as a wounding mechanism at all. I don't know where that happens.

But even when it's not much of a wounding mechanism, it still seems to be effective in terms of "giving notice" to the shootee that he's been injured. Which is important given that psychological stops are so prevalent.
At one point the FBI thought the 10MM was the answer.
IMO, at one point the FBI was in a bind and had to come up with a reason why a number of their ostensibly well-armed and well trained agents were massacred by one man with a rifle and a lot of determination. Blaming the caliber was a good reason and they went with it.

What was the first thing they did after they chose their barnburner caliber? Downloaded it to something a lot more comparable to what they had been carrying than what the caliber was in the beginning. That should tell you something right there.
Using the 9MM as the benchmark for lowest power acceptable...
Penetration with premium expanding ammo is the benchmark, not the caliber.
...declaring it and all calibers more powerful (or bigger, or whatever) functionally equivalent...
Not ALL calibers, just the calibers that fall into the performance range of the common service pistol calibers. And it's not that they're "declared" to be functionally equivalent, it's that no one, in spite of tremendous effort expenditure, has been able to show that they're not functionally equivalent.

You may say that's a fine distinction, but not when you look at it from the proper perspective. If you're making a caliber selection, you don't start off by assuming that there's a practically significant difference across your candidate range, you start off by trying to find evidence that there is. Otherwise you end up making your choice based on your initial assumption rather than letting than the evidence lead you to your choice.
...and then noting recoil as a negative...
Recoil is one penalty you pay with a heavier/larger caliber, but it's not the only one by any means. One needs to look at all the effects and weigh them all against each other rather than focusing on just one, or just a couple of them.
When the bullet technology improves and the .380 is adequate will we all switch to it?
Perhaps. If you want my honest opinion (and I'm going to pretend you do because I don't want you to miss out :D ), the FBI explanation that what makes the service pistol calibers all perform very similarly in terminal performance is the improvement in bullet technology is just grasping at straws for a way to rationalize why they've done an about face in the course of a few decades.

In my opinion, and based on the evidence I've been able to find, the service pistol calibers have always been very similar in performance when used with similar ammunition. That's been true all along just as it's true that the reason that the FBI switched away from 9mm really had very little to do with bullet performance in the first place.

Yes, bullet performance has improved, but, IMO, that's just a convenient explanation for a fact that was true even before they made the switch to 10mm and then to .40S&W.
I think it's (.380ACP) adequate now with the right ammo!
If you look at Ellifritz's data, it's hard to argue that it's not. The main thing that keeps the experts from recommending it is that you can't get it to reliably penetrate to the FBI's penetration threshold with expanding ammo.
 
The main thing that keeps the experts from recommending it is that you can't get it to reliably penetrate to the FBI's penetration threshold with expanding ammo.

That is ESPECIALLY true when intervening barriers are encountered.
 
alike

Just as the 1911 lives on, and is now made by half dozen or so manufacturers, over a hundred years after its introduction so to this post refuses to die.
 
What I said was "Expanding projectiles create very different wound tracks and wounding effects from non-expanding projectiles even when the final diameter of the two rounds is quite similar. "

How do you know this? How do you measure permanent wound (as defined by FBI) from the wound in soft tissue? Even if you could measure it how are you going to set up a control to determine equivilant body mass, do you shoot each victim with a 22 short or something like they're supposed to per for FBI protocol for gel (unlike luckygunners tests)
 
Bullet technology is not the limiting factor.

Let me guess now you're gonna say that physics says that bullet technology can't make a less powerful round out perform a more powerful round.

Or as the FBI says "9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"
 
Bullet technology is not the limiting factor.

And i think that is the most misunderstood part of the equation. All elements of the package must balance.

Too much power=excessive recoil
Too little power = subpar penetration and wounding
Too small=hard to shoot well
Too big= hard to conceal.

Like most things in life its all about trade offs:cool:
 
Let me guess now you're gonna say that physics says that bullet technology can't make a less powerful round out perform a more powerful round.
Bad guess.

But I think it is a true statement if one adds "that employs the same bullet technology, in terms of terminal ballistics, all other things being equal".

Terminal ballistics is but one factor, And all other things are not always equal.

The FBI standard load for .40 cal. pistols is the .40 PDX1. It is very good, but at least when it came out it did not have new technology bullets. It was the same as the .40 Ranger Bonded. But it is very good.

The Winchester PDX1 9 MM ammunition does have new bullet technology--and it is very good. I carry the 9MM PDX1.

The FBI does not. They have selected the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot G2.

I am not about to change. Not only have I tested the PDX1 in my firearm, I have seen videos of others testing the same load in the same gun. I know it works.

I am a lot more concerned about whether I would be able to recognize a threat timely, draw quickly enough, and score sufficient hits quickly enough and effectively enough, should the need arise, than I am about possible differences in terminal ballistics.
 
JohnKSa said:
A lot of the body is elastic tissue, but organs like the brain, spleen, liver, and kidneys, to name a few, are inelastic and can be damaged by temporary cavity.

And while the lungs are quite elastic they have a ~bazillion small capillaries that are very easily damaged.
So basically most of the stuff in the torso that we're trying to damage:rolleyes:


JohnKSa said:
The problem is that temporary cavity, below some threshold (I'm not going to be dogmatic about 2000fps being that threshold since it seems unlikely that something magic happens at the round number of 2000) becomes an UNRELIABLE wounding mechanism. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. And as you get lower and lower below the threshold it becomes more and more unreliable until it's hardly worth talking about as a wounding mechanism at all. I don't know where that happens.

From everything I've studied it's much closer tied to KE and starts to happen ~500 and becomes frequent at around 1000.

JohnKSa said:
But even when it's not much of a wounding mechanism, it still seems to be effective in terms of "giving notice" to the shootee that he's been injured. Which is important given that psychological stops are so prevalent.

I agree and the harder you hit them the better.

Sharkbite said:
That is ESPECIALLY true when intervening barriers are encountered.
As a CCW I'm far less concerned about this, if Mr BG wants to hide behind something, that's my que to get out of Dodge.

Sharkbite said:
The problem with that is the current crop of 380pistols are mostly blowback designs.
Actually most of the current crop of micro 380s are locked LCP, P38t, the Kahr all the little 1911ish Colt,Sig and Kimber are and I'm pretty sure the G42 is as well.

But this does bring up a good point as you say everythings a package deal and there are designs that make the recoil difference between the 9mm and 40 much less Glock is a very poor one as the 23 uses basically the same slide and spring causing a great deal of slide velocity. My FNS40s slide is about an ounce heavier than a FNS9 slide is and it's very easy to shoot fast.
 
From everything I've studied it [temporary cavity as a wounding mechanism]'s much closer tied to KE and starts to happen ~500 and becomes frequent at around 1000.
What have you studied on that?

Have you read the following?

The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect; therefore any difference in temporary cavity noted between handgun calibers is irrelevant. “In order to cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly.”2 2 DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1987, page 42.
 
What have you studied on that?
Unlike some folks that just read the cliff notes from others, I've actually seen damage done from both pistols and rifle wounds and growing up in a veterinary clinic I actually have a better than average understanding of anatomy, but if that's not good enough my two best hunting buddies graduated from veterinary school in '65 and '83. When you hunt with people who are keenly aware of animal behavior and anatomy field dressing often becomes why did the animal behave that way autopsy.

One in particular has always stuck a nerve was a 225# boar I shot with a 44 mag from a 7.5" Redhawk the load sent a 300gr Sierra soft point 1225 fps. The bullet entered on the boar's left side a bit higher than I planned and went between two ribs thru one loin clipped the bottom of the vertebrae, thru the other loin hit the hide on the far side and turned south under the skin for about an inch. It went down in a pile and started letting me know just what "squeals like a pig" sounds like. It was on the other side of a small creek and had dropped where I couldn't see it very well so me and my brother took about 20 to 25 seconds finding a spot to cross and get to it by the time we got there it was aspirating on blood a head shot ended that. Upon opening the chest cavity we found both lungs were about 1/2 full of blood, the first thought was bullet but we removed the organs and found that there was no hole in the thoracic cavity all the damage to the lungs was from blunt force trauma of the temporary cavitation. So when ever I see some expert say "the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect" I know that it's bovine fecies.
 
How do you measure ... do you shoot each victim...
I'm not especially interested in quantifying it. I haven't seen any evidence that FMJ and expanding ammo perform similarly and lots to indicate that they don't. Given the real world shooting data which indicates that the expanding ammo is more effective at stopping attacks, that's enough for me.
And while the lungs are quite elastic they have a ~bazillion small capillaries that are very easily damaged.
Over time that would very likely cause incapacitation and possibly death without medical treatment. I don't believe that capillary damage alone is likely to cause rapid incapacitation unless it's a truly massive amount of damage.
From everything I've studied it's much closer tied to KE and starts to happen ~500 and becomes frequent at around 1000.
I don't know about the thresholds, although I'm always suspicious of nice round numbers, but it is true, as far as I can determine, that kinetic energy, especially rapid rate of change of kinetic energy upon impact, is closely tied to the size of the temporary cavity.
I agree and the harder you hit them the better.
Notice is notice. Once a person knows they've been shot, they're either going to give up or they aren't. It's hard for me to believe that a person who realizes that they've been shot will stop and try to assess how hard the impact felt in order to determine whether or not they've had enough.
At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect"
It clearly can have some wounding effect. The problem is that the wounding effect is not considered to be a reliable wounding mechanism at typical handgun velocity/energy levels and further that the reliability goes down as the velocity/energy drops.

All that said, in my opinion, if I were going to try to assign weights to the various selection criteria, I would probably rate energy at least as high, maybe higher than bullet diameter as a selection criterion. Not that either one would rate especially high given the fact that no one has, to date, been able to show that any aspect of terminal performance makes a practically significant difference between the service pistol calibers when they are used with premium self-defense ammunition.
 
Given the real world shooting data which indicates that the expanding ammo is more effective at stopping attacks, that's enough for me.

What data, link please?

Over time that would very likely cause incapacitation and possibly death without medical treatment. I don't believe that capillary damage alone is likely to cause rapid incapacitation unless it's a truly massive amount of damage.

The more damage, the faster the lungs fill with blood, the faster the lungs fill with blood the sooner they'll have trouble breathing and the sooner they start having trouble breathing the better;)

The problem is that the wounding effect is not considered to be a reliable wounding mechanism at typical handgun velocity/energy levels and further that the reliability goes down as the velocity/energy drops.

I agree, which is why the first priority is always penatration, it just seems foolish to me to not recognize that that reliability goes up as velocity/energy increases.
 
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The more damage, the faster the lungs fill with blood, the faster the lungs fill with blood the sooner they'll have trouble breathing and the sooner they start having trouble breathing the better.
Do you really think that that would be useful in a defensive encounter?
 
Best way to incapacitate someone is the brain stem and upper central nervous system. Everything else is just poking holes and hoping they hit vitals hard enough to shut them down.

The gained size of a JHP that dumps it's kinetic energy instead of potentially passing through much like a FMJ round, is preferred in that it spins and tumbles while moving and thus the sharp edges cut and twist away at said vitals.

Again, nothing beats the upper CNS and brain stem.
 
Quote:
The more damage, the faster the lungs fill with blood, the faster the lungs fill with blood the sooner they'll have trouble breathing and the sooner they start having trouble breathing the better.
Do you really think that that would be useful in a defensive encounter?

Well, if the assailant reaches you after being shot and has less oxygen going to his muscles as he wrestles for your gun.......yea.

My take on 9mm vs .45/.40/10mm can easily be summed up.
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