The 9mm is useless!

i always figured in ww1 and ww2 people knew how to shoot, so one shot was one kill regardless of caliber. today the theory seams to be caliber makes up for lack of accuracy with caliber.

they all told me that a 9mm was to small for deer (one shot one deer). same hunting party a shotgunner (12gage) took 15 rnds to bring his deer down. apply your caliber rule there.

its not the size, but where you put it.

Joe
 
I had a love affair with big masculine ammo such as .45, .44. .454...and after draining my cash reserves on the big stuff i realized those paper targets would die just as easy if i was shooting a .22. i found 9mm half the price as .45, therefore, i picked up a g17 and use it more often than my g21. 9mm is a great cartridge and will do wonders when passing through a cranium.:) This is a useless thread mind you.
 
my next goal is to get two dear with one shot. all i have to do is get them to stand in line.

try that with a bigger caliber.


Joe
 
I have found that when teaching handguns to a new shooter, 9mm or .38special is about as big a round as most people can shoot accurately. I know someone is growling about 'I taught my 6 year old daughter to shoot on a .45 ACP... grumble grumble' I said most people. A lot of folks don't like a lot of recoil and muzzle blast. 9mm is good for 'em.
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Here's an interesting quote that meshes very well with yours.

From the July/August American Handgunner

From the .35s to the .40s – They Still Call ‘Em .38s!
By Mike Venturino

...Most people in the know about such things consider the .38 Special is the minimum revolver cartridge that should be used for home/self defense. And I know for certain it is about the largest cartridge non-enthusiast people can be taught to shoot with any degree of proficiency.​
That is something that most people will agree with, but given the same target area, bigger is obviously better.
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Overly simplistic. If we ignore reality and pretend that nothing else matters except for the particular aspect of a situation we wish to isolate we can easily prove anything we want.

The fact that no one has come up with a "final answer", a hard and fast rule for caliber selection in over a century of trying, is an extremely good hint that there's no easy answer. It's pretty convincing evidence that defining the REAL WORLD performance differences between handgun calibers in the service pistol/self-defense class is very difficult. If you think about it awhile it will click that it's not difficult because the differences in performance are so overwhelming. ;)
 
The more I think about it, I have decided that .22LR and 9mm are the two best cartridges for a multitude of reasons.....all in all. They are even good for big game if you shoot'em through the eyes. :D :p
 
Because most of us are American???

Could it be that Americans and/or the male testosterone in most of us prefere the "Bigger is Better" approach..

Personally I'm all for the 9mm. I like the beretta 92 and I currently have an Xdm 9 (along with an xdm .40 lol). With that being said I also prefer the .223 remington eventhough most say its not sufficient. I figure both those rounds are doing it for the military (Been there done that, seen the other team's members go down fast) then why not for the civiliian use?

One last note though. I prefer ball over HP. I want the depth and not the knock down force. When I fire its normally double to triple taps lol.
 
My 2c worth

Guns are tools. In your shed you have different size screwdrivers, hammers, spanners. I dont think 9mm is useless by any means. It is only a small part of the firearms "toolbox" It is a small but potent bullet so you have small(ish) magazines and can carry extra rounds quite efficiently. Sure you could have a 45, or 50 cal, you could even build a pistol to fire 7.62..... but if you wanted to carry 500 extra rounds with you (in close combat) you would need a wheelbarrow. So I believe the cheap, small (but pretty potent) 9mm allowing you to have +20 round mags that you can change in the blink of an eye is great for where it is designed for (close combat etc) How big would a SA pistol or revolver have to be to have +20 round mags with 7.62 ammo? Would be hard to lift and people moan about the recoil of a healthy 45, what would the recoil be if it were shooting 7.62? That would be useless (in close combat) While you were trying to turn around and point it at the BG, he could pop you with a.22

9mm is a great comprimise, adequate, basically a utility caliber, the guns that fire it can cycle fast, so if it takes 5 rounds to stop the BG so what, bullet placement is the question too. If 9mm doesnt suit you, go bigger, thats your perogitive, but if you were a cop or a guard havint to carry all day every day, you would appreciate the light weight compact size, but still with a fair bit of punch, instead of some huge beast of a weapon pulling your pants down all day :D
Dont knock it, each to their own...

Muzza
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bWagHqUZNw

MP40 with subgun high velocity. German WW2 spec 9mm was hotter than today's wimpy SAAMI spec. Plenty of heat on target with a 2-3 shot burst that is controllable and can be put on a standard NRA silouette all day out to 50 yds with practice. Much preferrable over a clunky heavy Thompson which has a great double stack mag. I prefer an M3 to a Thompson.
 
The more I think about it, I have decided that .22LR and 9mm are the two best cartridges for a multitude of reasons.....all in all. They are even good for big game if you shoot'em through the eyes.
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Just as isolating a specific parameter and pretending it's the only one that matters often provides a less than useful result, so it is pointless to take an argument to an extreme and then try to extend that extreme circumstance back to the original discussion which did not relate to the extreme.

In other words, if one is arguing whether 40W or 30W oil is superior for a particular application, it's not useful for the guy arguing for the 40W oil to say something like: "Well, if 30W is good then 5W has to be better. In fact, what we really want is oil that's thinner than water!" The fact that really thin oil would be wrong for the application is no evidence at all that 30W oil, (which is only slightly thinner than 40W oil) would be a bad choice for the application being discussed.

Similarly, in a discussion about relatively small changes in ballistics, it's not useful to try create arguments applying to extremely small/weak cartridges (such as .22LR) since they are not applicable to the discussion at hand. Nor is it useful to try to create arguments relating to shooting really large game since, again, that's not applicable to the discussion at hand.
 
I take it as a matter of utility.

If I'm in an urban environment/city I carry my HK Mark23 or HK USP CT .45 because all I need in that kind of an environment is sheer stopping power where I would want to neutralize the threat dead in it’s tracks. I don’t want a BG to keep coming or retaliate when I’m with my family.

While on the road I prefer keeping my Glock 19 with high cap magazines because in an alien environment I would feel comfortable with as much ammo that can come in handy which is where the 9mm excels. It’s a caliber that is readily available in our part of the world everywhere. Moreover, on a highway I want as much firepower to keep me cover till help arrives.
 
idc what u say i can hold down a army with a ruger 10/22 with high capacity mags i dont know about yall but if sum1 trys shooting me with anything im going to duck. many people say the .25acp is usless and will just tick off a attacker i sure wouldnt want a .25 calaber slug in my skull. even if i didnt kill you 65 pounds of energy in ur head is ganna cause massive swelling and ur vision to turn red and mucus will fill ur throat and nose like crazy and u might be fighting back sum but when u take anouther ur threw. same thing aplies to all calibers really.
 
Cause this is America dangit :mad:!!! We love our .45 and hate that the 1911 got replaced by some foreign mousegun!!:mad:

.... :D

I think with decent hollowpoint rounds a 9mm is just fine. If a Sig or MP5 in 9mm is good enough for the Navy SEALs it's good enough for me.
 
Now lets take the self defense situation. Ruling out walking in on a home break-in, its likely that the attacker is not only very close to me and within range to kill me with their bare hands, the person is probably angry. Anger will make a person continue to attack when a soldier will seek cover and treatment. In these cases, a 9mm may be adequate. But overcoming angry aggression is more difficult than taking our a longer range military target.
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I'm not sure you can say that all SD situations include an "angry" attacker. I'm sure a lot of attacks occur just over money ie: wallets, purses etc, where anger is not the motivating factor.

That being said, I think a lot of people give way, way, waaay too much credit to anger itself. Just because someone is being aggressive and is foaming at the mouth, doesn't make them invincible to a bullet to the chest, no matter the caliber.

Most "angry" people will cease to be angry and start being afraid the instant they see a handgun pointed at them. Most "attackers", in the most general sense of the word, don't expect their victims to fight back with anything, if at all. The attackers that get past the initial shock of seeing the weapon will probably not get much further than the first shot fired, even if it doesn't hit them. If someone takes 1 bullet, center mass, and keeps coming, they might be a zombie. :D
 
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The one thing for sure in these forums is you get proffesional guessing and conjecture. I wonder how many people who answered here have actually been shot, seen someone shot, or shot someone with a 9mm. Like any other caliber I would ASSUME it depends on bullet placement and type of bullet. When you check ballistics the 9mm is superior to the 38 special, and lagging @ 150 fps behind the highly touted 357 magnun. There are those that think if you hit someone anywhere with a 40 or 45 that person will collapse in a pool of goo. PLEASE. I study terminal ballistics and have talked or know 11 people who have been shot and survived. One shot with a 45acp, through the kneecap, and he walked back to his car not knowing he had been shot. Two people I know shot with a 44 magnun, both sewed up and back to work. Another shot betwen the eyes with a 5.56 while in Vietnam, his buddies had to tell him to get to the hospital. All these instances were quoted to make the point that EVERY caliber has had failures. As one old patholigist said once " hit em between the shirt pockets and the fight is over ". So use what you can shoot well and use premium bullets. I have trained many women and beginers and can state that I would rather be shot at with a 45acp by one of these people than by a 22 lr. They can easily shoot and hit with a 22.
 
Having been in one of those “self defense situations” I decided the most important thing was a gun that is ready when it is needed (no remembering to take the safety off). I will not carry a cocked and locked weapon for obvious reasons (rules out 1911 and glocks). It has to be a cartridge with the most versatility, able to shoot through obstacles if needed (rules out 45acp, and 40s&w). It has to be reliable to a fault. I shoot sig in 9mm FMJ.

Joe
 
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