The 9mm is useless!

The 9mm, 40 cal, and 45 cal, and any other pistol caliber are all useless because weapons like this exist today.
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I'm sure the Tavor is nifty keen, but the primary role of a pistol in the military is as a secondary weapon for combatants, as a primary weapon for certain specialists, and as effectively a badge of rank for certain officers. The Tavor will fail at the first (you are carrying an assault rifle as backup to another assault rifle?), likely be overkill for the second (assault rifles don't work that well for MPs and criminal investigators in the ordinary course of their duties), as well as the third (few officers would even consider the weight).

Evil Monkey, do you carry a suppressed SBR or a pistol when going about your daily routine? Perhaps a suppressed AUG SMG variant in a shoulder holster?
 
I have never read any reports, or heard any complaints from soldiers in WW II.
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Because generally those who fielded 9mm arms did not field 45 and vice versa. It is not like there was a whole lot of sharing going on. Likewise your average soldier in WWII was far less informed on ballistics and performance of various rounds on soft tissue than the average person concerned with such matters on this board.

In addition it was all ball and ball in 9mm frankly sucks as a reliable stopper. 45 isn't great but 45 will never get smaller!:)

Lastly, killing was not really the objective. The goal was to take the enemy out of action, hence the whole thing against expanding ammo. Ball goes in and out. It does damage and certainly may kill BUT wounding one man takes two out as one has to care for him.
 
but the primary role of a pistol in the military is as a secondary weapon for combatants, as a primary weapon for certain specialists,
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That's fine, but we're talking about shoulder fired weapons.

Evil Monkey, do you carry a suppressed SBR or a pistol when going about your daily routine? Perhaps a suppressed AUG SMG variant in a shoulder holster?
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No, but I've noticed for a long time now that forces across the world are giving up SMG's for compact rifles.

I gave the Micro Tavor with the suppressor pic as an example of what is replacing the pistol caliber SMG as the primary weapon. These bullpup compact rifles share a similar length, even with a suppressor, with most SMG's yet fire a more potent rifle round such as the 5.56mm.

If SWAT teams do well giving up MP5's for M4's, then compact bullpups are certainly desirable.
 
Evil Monkey .... where did you get that quote.... British Soldiers were carrying the Enfield L1A1 in the Faulklands Conflict
 
I got the quote from way back before the fall of the modern firearms forums many years ago.

I believe it was either a forum member from Chile or another that was British that had said what was in my signature. It was stated in a thread that was discussing 5.56 vs 7.62.

Those threads are the grand fathers of all "vs" arguments. :D
 
"A British Royal Marine was shot in the abdomen with 7.62mm NATO during the liberation of the Falklands, he carried on fighting shooting the Argentine dead with his M16. "

Nice signature line but the brits were using the FN FAL in .308. The Argentinians ahs the select fire version while the Brits had the semi-auto only version.

The Enfield L1A1 was adopted after the war.

Take Care

Bob
 
I have fired both the mp 40 and thompson .45 in full auto. There is no doubt that the mp-40 had more accuracy and control. I would pick the mp-40 9mm any day over the .45 thompson.
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This kind of goes back to the previous post by RickDavis81 that says
Drum brakes all the way around were also fine in WWII but I'd rather have 4 wheel disc now if I have the choice. I have and enjoy a few 9mm's and there isn't anything wrong with them. But there are also better rounds out there now.
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A Thompson .45 is a totally different beast than today's models. The Thompson is known for kicking like a mule and was designed for stopping power and a lot of it.

I have been shooting an HK UMP .45 full auto for several years now that also has 9mm parts to switch calibers as needed/wanted. I have shot several thousand rounds of each through the UMP and the difference is noticeable but not overwhelming. Controlling the UMP with .45 rounds is no problem at all, and I can keep a full magazine (25 rounds) on a 10" x 10" target at 25 yards. Possible to repeat that feat further maybe, but I have never tried it. There just isn't a significant advantage of a 9mm over a .45 when talking about controlability and follow up shots in todays more advanced subguns being operated by an experienced shooter. The biggest difference I see is that the .45 requires a bit more concentration and my shoulder may be a bit more sore after 500 rounds of .45 than 9mm.

I was able to shoot a Thompson almost a decade ago, and yeah, that's a totally different argument.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but has there ever been a study done that showed a time when a 9mm actually failed in combat and another caliber would have succeed?
 
Would you like to enter MY house and face a barrage of 9mm.?

It's my favorite round because it's the easiest to control for the size and weight of the pistol plus I get a lot of rounds prior to reloading.

I have bigger and badder plus smaller down to .22 but when nuts comes to bolts in a close encounter I'll take 13 well placed rounds.
 
I have the solution:

2-6 shots to the body, working up toward the head.

3 shots to the head if the body shots didn't work.

Create multiple wound channels and reset the goblin's OODA loop with each hit.

9mm 115 grain FMJ, 45 ACP 230 JHP, 44 Mag...their terminal ballistics all stink because they are shot from a HANDGUN!

Don't buy into the "one shot stop" hype...that's for selling YOU ammo. Focus on what matters, which is skill in shooting, tactics, knifing, hand to hand, threat assessment, awareness, and probably 10 other things I'm forgetting.
 
Re4mer said:
Forgive my ignorance, but has there ever been a study done that showed a time when a 9mm actually failed in combat and another caliber would have succeed?
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And just how would one go about such a study? :confused:

Swampghost said:
Would you like to enter MY house and face a barrage of 9mm.?

It's my favorite round because it's the easiest to control for the size and weight of the pistol plus I get a lot of rounds prior to reloading.

I have bigger and badder plus smaller down to .22 but when nuts comes to bolts in a close encounter I'll take 13 well placed rounds.
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Do you want to face the liability and/or criminal charges for a "barrage" of gunfire? Prosecutors could look at 13 rounds vs. one intruder as panic fire or a wanton disregard for your neighbors.

But if you're talking a barrage, easy to control round and about a dozen well placed rounds, would you like to come in to my house and face 12 well-placed rounds of .32 S&W Long?
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crebralfix said:
I have the solution:
2-6 shots to the body, working up toward the head.

3 shots to the head if the body shots didn't work.

Create multiple wound channels and reset the goblin's OODA loop with each hit.

9mm 115 grain FMJ, 45 ACP 230 JHP, 44 Mag...their terminal ballistics all stink because they are shot from a HANDGUN!
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I'm counting on controlled pairs from this light-recoiling set-up.
Six rounds of .45ACP to COM should get some serious attention.
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Like you, if that first six aren't doing the job, I'm changing tactics.
I'll use this one to fight my way to the 12-gauge.
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As a well known forum member, 9x19 put it "Make mine lean,mean and 9x19!"

9mm is just like every other cartridge ever: It still puts a piece of metal down range extremely fast. Its small, its fast and its very controllable. I think that if everyone who ever back talked on 9mm actually held the cartridge and how "mean" it really looks then they would'nt say anything.
 
I have two Uzi Mod. 45 -- carbine and micro pistol. They have an option for 45 ACP, but the 9mm provides more capacity, less carry weight for multiple mags.

They're not intended as "rifles" . . . They're intended as carbines, pistols with shoulder stocks, light arms, easy to carry. In 9mm mode they're virtually without recoil and don't "climb" much. Easy to shoot full-auto with one hand.
 
9mm With Results

Everything has its limitations, a 20mm will not stop a battleship.
For antipersonel use a 9mm with 147 gr HP and a stiff load is more than sufficient. Shot placement is paramount with any caliber. Remember the Miami shootout years past. The 10mm/40SW was then developed. Shot placement, body armor and a whole host of thing come into play, it doesnt matter what the caliber is. Several rounds to the upper torso or head will slow or generally end the situation.


NRA member 40+ years
 
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I too thought the 9 was a pipsqueek. Until I got a STEn... The penetration was better than I thought it would be. And then a suppressor. And I discovered 158 Sampsons. Neato ! Then the cost. And I converted my AR to it. Now I can shoot the AR in an indoor range at 10 below zero. The 9 has many options for loads. I am a FAN ! :rolleyes:
 
I think I'd rather have a 1911 or a Thompson sub machine gun or a M1 Garand.
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So you are saying that you rather have guns listed in combat:

For example: 1911 over a high cap 9mm, thompson over MP5K, and M1 Garand over lets say HK G36 or Galil 7.62?
 
I
have never read any reports, or heard any complaints from soldiers in WW II.

The mp-40 and the sten seemed to work great. I have never heard anyone say that the mp-40 or sten were useless.
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There have been many complaints about the sten in WWII. Not the cartridge necessarily, but there were many complaints that the sten was prone to frequent jams. I remember one report from a Brit at Deipe who said that he finally abandoned his sten for a High Power (same caliber) because the sten kept jamming.
 
People who get shot, tend to stay shot. For the most part it really doesn't matter what they get shot with. You can find examples of people who have survived most everything known to man. You can find examples of people who literally died of fright.
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Ditto.

Another thing I was thinking about is whether it is fair compare between a 9mm in WW2 and 9mm of today. The newer JHP rounds of today seem to have far greater capabilities than what older rounds had. Also the guns used to shoot the rounds were different. This may not vindicate the 9mm but it should be noted when comparing the state of things today in 2009 vs 1945.
 
And as these things always do, this thread has become an argument of personal preference.

There are more people dead in the cold cold ground because of 9x19 than any other pistol round. That doesn't mean it is the best, it means it sees the widest use. It sees wide use because it works.

I have found that when teaching handguns to a new shooter, 9mm or .38special is about as big a round as most people can shoot accurately. I know someone is growling about 'I taught my 6 year old daughter to shoot on a .45 ACP... grumble grumble' I said most people. A lot of folks don't like a lot of recoil and muzzle blast. 9mm is good for 'em.

It is a great round out of a SMG but SMGs are on their way out because of little rifles like the M4 and the Krinkov. But that is one for a another thread.
 
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