Texas School Where Teachers Carry

[hermannr]

WA law is interesting...RCW 9.41.280 concerns weapons on school property, and contains these exemptions:

"(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

(b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

(c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

(d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;...." (there are more)

It appears to me that all a teacher would need is to be assigned an aditional duty of "school security" and as long as that teacher did NOT possess an electric stun device ((1)(f) he/she would be fine.

 

[osbornk]

Armed teachers or school personnel is not what keeps the shooters away from the schools, it is the possibility that they will be armed. As it is now, they know everyone at the school is unarmed. If it was possible to have selected employees armed and it was known by the general public, I don't think the shooters would choose to attack a school where they knew they were in danger of having fire returned.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Once again - if the shooter has a targeted interest in the school, the presence of armed folks may not deter. We really don't know. However, at Columbine there was a known armed presence. The attack was supposedly bomb based (which failed) and the shooters planned for ambushing the arriving law with bombs.

At VT, there was a known campus police presence. Cho planned and did thwart their easy entrance.

The shooter knows that it will take several minutes for response and may plan around it. Given they expect to die - that's part of it for many.

However, having an armed person present - as in armed teachers as compared to a distant guard - you may be an immediate response or the next classroom can be defended.

I regard mitigating the incident as a stronger argument than deterring the shooters we see. They are emotional as compared to instrumental and death is part of the scenario.

 

[Armorer-at-Law]

However, having an armed person present - as in armed teachers as compared to a distant guard - you may be an immediate response or the next classroom can be defended.

Indeed! And the other notion of a useful defense tool being kept in a "lockbox" in the principal's office is nothing more than a "feel-good" compromise being suggested.

 

[Fishing_Cabin]

Interesting...Seems Va is looking at this as well...

Speaking on the radio Tuesday, Gov. Bob McDonnell said he’s open to a discussion about school officials being armed in response to the school shooting massacre in Connecticut last week.

“If someone had been armed, there would have been an opportunity to stop the person from coming into the school,” the governor said according to a transcript of his monthly appearance on Washington-area station WTOP.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/12/bob-mcdonnell-suggests-arming-school-officials

 

[jimpeel]

Michigan's governor has vetoed the CCW bill.

SOURCE

CHICAGO – Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder on Tuesday vetoed a bill that would have permitted people to carry concealed weapons in public areas including hospitals, schools and daycare centers, the Wall Street Journal reports. Snyder, a Republican, bucked his own party, which had pushed the bill through the state legislature's lame-duck session last week. He told the newspaper that he was worried the bill might have forced various institutions to allow concealed weapons on site. His veto comes just days after 20-year-old Adam Lanza shot up a school in Newtown, Conn., leaving 26 people -- most of them young children -- dead before turning the gun on himself.

Copyright © 2012 MarketWatch, Inc.

 

[lockedcj7]

I am a HS teacher and I just had a conversation with our SRO today. He is not the type that was described earlier. I have no doubt that he would be a tremendous asset should we ever have an attack at our school. That said, he is only one man and may not be where needed, when needed. He also is absent much of the time due to training, court and other departmental duties.

He said that he would very much support the idea of developing a crisis response team within the school. Teachers with military, LE or just firearms experience could train with the Sheriff's dept. during the summer in 'active shooter drills'. They would coordinate with the SRO and be known to the administration and local LE.

I also agree with the earlier points about retention holsters and not physically breaking up fights when you are carrying.

 

[Picher]

People who go into schools, etc., to kill kids and others are, in effect, terrorists! They often have no regard for their own safety, as evidenced by those who take their own lives afterwards. They are not rational and have no concern for those they shoot. They're like the Kamakazis of WWII, focused on inflicting as much damage they can before they're killed.

Preventing such acts is extremely difficult because they've had time to do considerable planning and time their events to achieve optimal results. That said, the weapons used may or may not be firearms, but even more damaging weapons, not to be discussed here for fear of planting seeds.

That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen. More guns harm people and property unintentionally than anyone would imagine. I've seen, heard of, and had unintentional discharges.

That said, I am fully confident that I would never intentionally hurt any innocent person with a firearm. I've been trained and trained others in firearm safety and use, including police officers. However, I'm not so sure about YOU or anyone else! So, how can anyone else have confidence that I'm not going to cause a problem with a firearm? It's the same with countries who have, or want atomic bombs, but on a smaller scale.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

People who go into schools, etc., to kill kids and others are, in effect, terrorists!

Nope, most really are not. Terrorism has spefic definitional parameters that do not fit most school shooter. Kamikazis don't fit those parameters either.

Terrorism is defined as...

The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property in order to coerce or intimidate a government or the civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism

What aspect of the school shootings do you feel is for the purpose of coercing government into some particular behavior?

It's the same with countries who have, or want atomic bombs, but on a smaller scale.

That said, um, NO.

 

[JN01]

That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen. More guns harm people and property unintentionally than anyone would imagine. I've seen, heard of, and had unintentional discharges.

Why would carrying in a school be different than anywhere else? Are you opposed to non-police carrying guns in general?

If an armed school employee, in the course of taking out a killer, inadvertently hits a bystander, is this worse than having everyone in the room murdered for lack of any armed defense?

 

[Sparks1957]

That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen

Picher, what are you basing that statement on? Generalizations like that are, well, too general, and are usually wrong.

I'd wager that I am as proficient with firearms as many of our local police in my area.... and I'm a teacher.

 

[JohnKSa]

What happens the first time a teacher is breaking up a fight and loses their carry piece?

Any responsible person carrying a handgun needs to take reasonable precautions to insure that their handgun stays where it needs to stay until they need to draw it. In my case, a good quality IWB holster, designed specifically to fit my gun is perfectly adequate. If I were in a situation where I thought I might have to break up a fight or otherwise get involved in vigorous activity, a retention holster might be a better option.

You do realize that police carry holstered firearms in situations where they might have to wrestle with a suspect? Retention holsters have been around a long time and they work very well.

We were told that even if we get the chance to pick up a gun in a shooting situation not to, because when the police show up they will kill anyone who has a gun.

I recommend that you drop your gun when the police arrive. Again, this is not a new problem, nor is it one that is difficult to solve. In any armed self-defense situation, the police will likely arrive at some point to find an armed defender. The defender is advised to act prudently and to cooperate with the police at that point to avoid any misunderstandings from turning ugly.

It's worth pointing out that if you are still alive and armed when the police arrive after a mass shooting, that is GOOD outcome, and I'm not sure why someone would want to try to spin it to make it sound like it's bad.

...the presence of armed folks may not deter.

I would go so far as to say it's unlikely to deter.

Having armed persons available to react rapidly is one possible way to keep a school shooting from turning into a mass murder. I seriously doubt it will stop school shootings.

 

[Picher]

I've seen and recently heard of accidental shootings and realize that they wouldn't kill masses of people, but still have seen in the news and heard about other instances where people were injured or killed by gun accidents.

In the past week, a guy bought a handgun and "unloaded" it in his car by removing the magazine, then apparently dropped the hammer on a loaded chamber, shooting his son in the car, minutes after buying the gun.

In another incident in Maine, there were very "proficient" police firearms instructors examining a handgun behind the shooting line when it went off and shot the Sheriff.

My B-I-L, a very competent match handgun shooter and firearms instructor, in separate incidents, accidentally shot out his TV, a sliding glass door, a picture of Abe Lincoln, and a neighbor's dog. Before the dog incident, he had a concealed weapons permit.

I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting.

 

[Eppie]

Why they don't have school shootings in Israel

I live in a suburb of Houston and through my church I know of a couple school teachers that have concealed permits and carry in school. They are fine people with children of their own with whom I share a pew every Sunday. I believe that they have nothing but goodwill towards their fellow men, they simply are aware that there are crazy peoiple out there and their students look to their teacher for instruction, advice and sometimes for protection.

Here's why they don't have school shootings in Israel.

 

[Armorer-at-Law]

I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting.

I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering disarming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to be unable to have effective defense tools and just one was harmed, it would be as devastating to that teacher and more devastating to the community than if there were an even more extremely rare accidental shooting.

That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen

Teachers throughout Utah have been allowed to be armed for several years now. Can you give me links to the "accidents" they've experienced there?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. What empirical evidence is there that arming qualified teachers is more of an accident waiting to happen than having an armed guard? There is none.

2. There is a natural bias against hurting an innocent based on our emotional fast mental processes. However, your rational mind should make this calculation.

Gun man comes into a class and unopposed will kill 20 or 30. The brave teacher will be shot down in a futile charge. Yes, I know some tackles have worked but many don't.

Gun man comes into a class - armed qualified teacher engages. Will 20 or 30 kids be hit by friendly fire. Probably not. Let's say 2 get hit (a tragedy), 28 are saved. The moral onus is on the gun man and not the teacher that tried his or her best. That is especially the case, if the latter took the time to train and made a sincere effort to be prepared.

 

[raimius]

a very competent match handgun shooter and firearms instructor, in separate incidents, accidentally shot out his TV, a sliding glass door, a picture of Abe Lincoln, and a neighbor's dog. Before the dog incident, he had a concealed weapons permit.

The first part of your description does not match the rest! If you've had not 1 but FOUR negligent discharges, I'd say your competence is very much in question.

 

[Armorer-at-Law]

Gun man comes into a class - armed qualified teacher engages. Will 20 or 30 kids be hit by friendly fire. Probably not. Let's say 2 get hit (a tragedy), 28 are saved. The moral onus is on the gun man and not the teacher that tried his or her best. That is especially the case, if the latter took the time to train and made a sincere effort to be prepared.

Not to argue both sides, but I think that he was talking about an accidental (or negligent) discharge, rather than collateral damage in an actual defensive situation.

Regarding gun accidents in public, they are extremely rare - but not nonexistant - even if we just look at the public at large. That includes several shall-issue states where you can carry or get a concealed carry license with NO training whatsoever. Off the top of my head, these include Washington, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Arizona, Alaska - and probably others. We just don't see many accidents in public or gun grabs.

If we used this as a starting point, and then asked whether there were some
"reasonable" training requirements that could/should be imposed, I'm with you.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why they don't have school shootings in Israel

That picture is showing up all over the web, but so far, I have yet to see a single instance of where the particular school is name or that the woman with the rifle is a teacher. I have found, however, claims that it is a school fieldtrip away from school and that the accompanying woman is a parent or possibly a security guard.

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/12/via-reddit-two-suggestions-re-reducing-gun-violence/

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/standing-with-israel/16282-are-israeli-teachers-armed

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/newsmax-readers-teachers-guns/2012/12/18/id/468245

http://jewishpreppers.com/2012/12/are-israeli-teachers-armed/

I only know 2 folks who have lived in Israel in recent years and neither has seen teachers with firearms. Scanning the internet for images of Israeli teachers and there is a startling lack of images showing teachers with guns and those that purportedly show teachers with guns are like the image above that make the claim without any sort of identifying information/context and certainly nothing that can be verified.

Granted, there aren't many school schootings in Israel, but there are bombings, mortar, rocket, cannon, and missile attacks along with the occasional incursions from their neighbors in hopes of reclaiming territory.

 

[jtmckinney]

Everyone, Thanks for a great job discussing this.

Picher, I would like to respond to your comment;
"I've seen and recently heard of accidental shootings and realize that they wouldn't kill masses of people, but still have seen in the news and heard about other instances where people were injured or killed by gun accidents."
And then;
"I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting."

Accidental and negligent discharges do happen when firearms are being handled. They are rare but do happen. I have never heard of any modern firearm discharging when no one was pulling the trigger. For the discussion of arming teachers and school administrators who are capable of and volunteered for this duty I do not think this applies because the firearm would not be un-secured when students were in the building unless there was a situation that called for it.

Nowhere has it been suggested that this would proceed without caution. The articles I linked too talked about the process they went through before coming to the conclusion this was the best for their students.

Arming teachers and school administrators is being discussed. It was being discussed at the job site I was at in another state this week and at my workplace when I got back in the office today. I always try to bring this into the discussion when it is in the best interest to do so. You may have to listen to some things you do not want to hear first but if you want your opinion to be heard you have to be willing to listen to others.

Now is a time when it is very important for us to be good citizens as gun owners and belivers in the importance of the 2nd Amendment.

Again Thanks Everyone!
James