Tell me how to accurize a Glock.

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I bought a Glock 23 with night sights. It was getting nice circular 4.5 inch groups at 50 feet, but low. As expected I was disappointed. A colleague who carried a G19 asked if I was squeezing the trigger. I replied affirmative and he said to just pull it. Do not squeeze it or yank it, either.

The groups dropped to 2 inches and centered. This is with teh standard trigger. I do not like light carry triggers, just predictable ones. I love this pistol. In spite of the different trigger action, it has not affected my technique with my S&W686, Sig P220, of Beretta 96D Brigadier.

Before I would spend money on smithing and accurizing, I would spend time on practice. :)
 
Walter: Right on the money. My Glock is the pistol I enjoy the most and shoot the most. The Wilson Combat and the Sigs are in the gun safe, the Glock gets used...

700PSS: Well said. The great thing about a Glock is you can dry fire them all day long and not hurt the gun. That means a lot of practice for trigger control if you want to take the time to learn the Glock trigger. And once the trigger pull is mastered, you can work on trigger reset technique. Once those two are mastered, you've got an advantage over other defensive handguns, in my humble opinion. No external safety, consistent trigger pull, fast followup shots, works every time.
 
Red Bull,

"Both my Glock 32 and my Glock 30 will hit one inch groups at 25 yards offhand."

Your profile doesn't say where you are located, but if you're in Northern California, I'd be willing to put my money where my mouth is to prove that you can't back up that claim. I'm planning a business trip to San Francisco in about three weeks, and I'd be willin" to make a wager of any reasonable amount of money ($1,000 or less) to see you actually shoot a 1" group off-hand group with each of these pistols. I'm assuming that we're talking about a standard 5 shot group at 25 yards. You pick the range in the SF area, and I'll come and witness this feat on a Saturday or Sunday during my trip. Please bring cash to back up your boast, and I'll do the same.
 
Red bull:

I won't dare call you a liar, although i must say that I've never seen anyone shoot 1" 25 yd groups offhand with ANY Glock, not can I do it with my G19 or 22. I have done it with my Les Baer 1911, so I know I'm semi-competent.

Want to sell your G30? ;) If it's stock, and does in fact shoot 1" groups, name your price! Or
 
Guy's let's keep in mind that the guns in question are the 32 and the 30. I believe a full size Glock may be able to hit 1" from a rest but the 30?
Glock barrels are more accurate then most stock guns but they are not magic. A 3.78" 45ACP barrel that could hit 1" from a rest at 25yrd would cost a lot of money. Doing it from offhand is just plain BS. I don't care how good or bad a shot you are.

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA
 
You're an ISPC shooter? Do you shoot comps with a Glock? hahahahahaha

I've seen quite a few ranges during my travels across the US on business trips. I've NEVER seen a person shoot 1" groups @ 25 yards with a ANY Glock. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.

A G30 though? Get real... I shoot over 8000 rounds through my 1911 Commanders and can't even get 1" groups. My full size 1911s, YES. Compacts and commanders... nope.

I'll lay my money where my mouth is too. I should have another business trip to Los Angelos and Oakland within the next two months. Tell me where and when. Any amount up to $5000. Bring the Glocks and the cash. If you can hit 1" groups with both Glocks which includes:
5 shots center to center
off-hand @ 25 yards, the money is yours. I'll believe it when I see it.

------------------
Son
1911 Addiction

[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited June 18, 2000).]
 
The G30 is one of the most accurate out of the box Glocks; however, maybe the problem here is one of semantics. Maybe Red Bull isn't measuring like the rest of us. Maybe instead of measuring center-to-center for five shots, he's making fewer shots and measuring from the outside edge of the hole.

Then, again, maybe he has the most accurate Glock 30 ever made, in the most talented hands in the world. Either, of course, is a possibility.

If any of you guys gets to see the action, I sure would appreciate it if you'd post some follow-ups, including pics, if possible.
 
WalterGA….if you can shoot a tennis ball at 50 yards, how does that not compare to approximately 1 inch at 25 yards? You don’t think on a good day you could hit at least a 1.5 inch group at 25 yards or a 3 inch group at 50 yards? If you are shooting tennis balls at 50 yards then I don't see why you could not.

I don’t think anyone here claimed to be able to shoot 1 inch at 25 yards any day of the week, but that it is possible to do with a Glock and that it has been done. I cannot speak for anyone else, but that has been my experience. I have done it before on a good day, but usually I am a hair larger than that group on an average day.

Go over to Glocktalk and talk to the hardcore Glock shooters and you will see that it is not uncommon to get groups like that with the right Glock in the right hands.


I have a magazine article in front of me too. It has a Glock 21 being shot at 50 yards, holding consistent 1.75 inch groups and less. The author got FOUR credible witnesses to come see and he pictured them for the article (other gun rag authors) because no one would believe him. That is a stock Glock shooting .75" (yes, sub one inch) groups at 25 yards, documented. How come you refuse to believe that? Because you can't do it?


The Glock 21 is also not known to be as accurate as a Glock 30. My Glock 21 is far from being as accurate as my Glock 30.


Another thread on this very forum has a guy that said he saw his Police instructor shooting a 2 inch pole at 50 yards and hitting it 8 times out of 10 with a stock Glock 17. A two inch group at 50 yards is a 1 inch group at 25 yards FYI. No one believes him either. Why? Because they can't do it so it must be impossible?


Chuck Taylor documents his Glock 17 and Glock 22 to shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards? Don't believe it because you can't do it? He said that after 165K rounds, his Glock 17 has now deteriorated to 2 inch groups at 25 yards.


I have said before in other threads that I shoot my Glock 31 at 200 yards...yes, that is not a typo, I said 200 yards (200 yards I said!!!) and I keep my hits on a steel torso silouette. That is about a chest size group at 200 yards offhand....yes I said OFFHAND (that is offhand dammit, not a typo!). I hunt with my Glock, so how the heck could I use it if I shot any LESS well than being able to hit a larger torso at longer ranges?

Chuck Taylor says he has taken several deer with his stock Glock 22. And, I know of people that have taken deer with Glock 17’s.

At Lone Wolf Industries’ web site they have a page of customers who have taken game with Glocks. You can go see the page yourself. One guy took a deer with a Glock 30.

The point is, how are all these people taking medium game if these pistols are go innaccurate?

I hunt deer, coyote, wild pig and other small and medium game with my Glocks. I prefer my Glock 31 because the flat trajectory, high energy, and deep penetration of the .357 Sig.

In the latest issue of American Handgunner, there is an article about Ted Nugent taking his old stock Glock 20 on safari in Africa. He says he hunts with it a lot. One of the game he took was a warthog, which they showed the pictures of. He took it at 106 paces; just around 100 yards. Now, how did he take this animal at over 100 yards (with one shot and it dropped on the spot - good placement) if his stock Glock is so innaccurate? How are all these people taking this game with such innaccurate guns? Is it impossible because YOU can’t do it?

There is lots of evidence before you that the Glock will shoot better than you think. You can either insist on believing that all these magazine articles, Chuck Taylor, and the rest of us are lying, or you can think that possibly you are not shooting your Glock as well as it can be shot.

No one here, even Red Bull, who is taking the most heat, is claiming anything but that it can be done, and it has been done. I have seen it, and done it, on a good day, so I know the gun can do it if my skills are up to it that day (we all have good days and bad days shooting...or am I alone in this?).


To the original posted question, your Glock is probably more accurate than you think, but as I said, you can get a hardfitted Barsto barrel for it and Barsto claims on their website that you will get 1-1.25" groups at 25 yards with their barrel in a Glock.
As the saying goes:
"The best upgrade to your Glock is another case of ammo and some more practice."


[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited June 18, 2000).]
 
DG and Red Bull, both of you have ignored the question or refuse to answer it: How many shots are in your 1" to 1.5" offhand groups at 25 yds? A simple question.
 
Jeez, I'm sorry that I waited so long to read this thread. I have to side with Mal: How many rounds in the group? Do you disount the flyer, i.e. 4 & 1 or 3 & 1? Are you measuring center to center, or outside to outside(minus one bullet diameter) in the accepeted manner?
Yes, that's truly a sight that I would like to see. Unfortunately, my doubts aren't strong enough to warrant such ample sums of cash in wagering. I will await Red's answers to you all. :)
 
Oops, sorry MalH. Kinda forgot the details in all the jibber-jabber. I personally don't have a set amount of rounds for myself. Sometimes I shoot 3 round groups and count them all. Or, I shoot five rounds and allow myself one flyer (standard practice for measuring groups). When I am shooting purely for myself, I shoot 5 rounds and count them ALL, but that is just for myself, not "for the record". Other times I shoot a whole mag and see if I can keep all rounds within a certain parameter.
It is not every day that I can shoot really great groups, but some days I can, so I know the gun can do it on any given day that I can do it. I am the limiting factor in the size of the groups, not the gun.
 
From reading other threads, I know that I am not the only one on this forum that has seen guys that can shoot a Glock well enough that a 1 inch group at 25 yards is not impossible. Although I cannot do it, I have personally seen around 1.5 inch groups from these people. This was with a Glock 17 mostly. The Glock 30 and the .357 Glocks are notorious for being accurate, so I would say it is very possible that a 1 inch group could be had on a good day. Hey, I only know what I have seen with my own eyes and that is my experience.
 
But DerGlockenpooper, don't you see why everyone has doubts about your stated groups? Why is a "flyer" not considered part of a group. It didn't go astray because of a sudden burst of gravitons. It went astray because of one or more of: the shooter, the gun, the ammo, the wind. It would be an extremely rare event when you can shoot consistent 5 shot groups into 1.5" at 25 yds with a stock Glock from offhand.
 
Geesh, you guys are so adamant, you are making me doubt even myself! I broke out one of my targets and measured it. 25 yards, 5 shots, measured center to center, 1.25 inches. Is that close enough? That one happened to include all five shots. How about if I throw out one and only count 4 of the 5? Usually you are allowed to let one flyer go and measure 4 out of 5 for the group. Ayoob even measures 3 out of 5 for the group, which I think is silly. I try to measure ALL my shots, but sometimes I have a flyer that I throw out, counting 4 out of 5.
I do believe that the standard practice in magazine articles etc is to shoot five and throw out a flyer, counting four out of five, center to center.

On an average day, I do not shoot 1 inch groups. I NEVER CLAIMED THAT I did and never even hinted at it! Read that again and get it through your heads. You guys are taking what I am saying WAY out of context. Go back to my posts: I said it was POSSIBLE! It means, I have done it, more than once, and I will do it again. You guys are like a bunch of hyenas jumping on downed game before you even read all my posts. I have to wonder why you are so worked up over this? It must be an ego thing.
On an average day with my G30 or 32 I can get close to one inch groups, and as I said before, (once again), if I am not shooting close to 1 inch groups at 25 yards, I am disappointed (I define "close to one inch groups" as ~ 5 shots, well within 2 inches at 25 yards offhand, and that is on an average day, not a good day). That means to me that, since I am the limiting factor and not the Glock, that the Glock can probably shoot better than I can on an average day. I know the Glock can shoot 1 inch groups because I have done it. Anything less is MY fault and my skills limiting the Glock’s ability. I said very clearly several times that "if you are not shooting close to one inch groups at 25 yards then you are not shooting to the Glock’s potential". I never said that one inch groups were mandatory nor common. I said "close" to one inch groups means you are shooting to the Glock 30’s potential. Anything less and you are not shooting as well as the gun can shoot. Do we all believe that offhand we shoot as accurately as our gun? That is a common premise I am going off of, is that the most inaccurate link in the equation of shooting offhand is the shooter, not the gun. And, I know that my G30 can hit one inch groups at 25 yards, because I have done it, so therefore anything less than that is MY fault (or YOUR fault if you are the shooter). Got it? Do I have to spell it out any clearer?

As to the $5000 wagers, gimme a break. That is a straw man the minute you throw it and you know it out because you know that the odds are infinitesimal that it will ever happen and you can use that fact to make me look bad. You know the odds are (and it is true that) I do not have the money to make such wagers even if you do. AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, you are also trying to corner me into something that I never claimed. I did not say I could shoot 1 inch groups any day of the week, under pressure (can you?). I said that I have done it with my Glocks, meaning that it is NOT something I accomplish every time I go shooting, but it has been done and can be done. So what kind of wager can I make on something that I can only do once in a while? If I had claimed that I can hit 1 inch groups every time at 25 yards, then I could see a wager to form to prove that I could, but I never claimed that. Give me a break, people and lay off a little. No reason to get all worked up.
I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Guys that are really good and get on TV are hitting eggs at 100 yards. A 1 inch group at 25 on a good day is not out of reach and certainly not worthy of the great attention you are affording it by claiming it should be on TV.
In fact, I think I am going to go to the range now and see what I can do. When everyone is telling you the sky is green, you start to wonder if it is really blue or if your eyes are deceiving you.


Mal H - The reason the flyer is thrown out is because the idea is to see how accurate the GUN is, not how accurate you are. If you throw a flyer, then that is YOUR/MY fault, not the gun's. The idea in this particular drill is to see how accurate the gun is, not the shooter. Standard practice for measuring the accuracy of a GUN is to throw out the shooter error which commonly allows for one flyer out of five. I didn't make the rules, someone else did, and that is standard protocol for measuring groups. There is a difference between measuring how well YOU shoot and how well your GUN shoots. I am saying all along that my GUN can print 1 inch at 25 yards, and once in a while I can shoot as well as my gun.
As I have said over and over, I did not claim that I could shoot 1 inch groups every time, what I am claiming is that the GUN can. If I shoot worse than the gun, then I am making the groups larger. Since I have seen my gun print 1 inch at 25 yards, I know that it can. Now, it is up to ME to shoot as well as the gun. Somedays I can, somedays I can't.









[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited June 18, 2000).]
 
The "standard practice" of throwing out one shot of five is news to me, and I suspect to most of the other shooters here. The only thing I've seen like that is to toss "called" fliers that you realize went astray as soon as you pull the trigger. If someone is spotting, he can see where that shot hits and you can reasonably ignore it for accuracy testing. If you throw out a flier that you thought was accurate, what does that prove, except that you or the gun missed?

I see the 1" groups are growing, so I guess I can put my money back in my wallet. :)
 
No, the groups are not growing, you are just finally reading my post. I challenge you to go back and find where I said that I could shoot 1 inch at 25 yards at any given time with my Glock. I said I have done it before with the gun and I know it can do it. Go find one of my posts where I claim otherwise before you claim victory with your childish wager. You wagered me something that I never claimed I could do. I said I have done it, multiple times, the gun can do it, and any time that I am shooting less accuratly than that, then I am not shooting to the potential of my gun. Go read my posts before you pat yourself on the back. All you succeeded in doing is to take me out of context by not reading what I was saying.

You (ALL OF YOU) were so quick to be upset that someone could possibly shoot better than you, that you didn't even take time to read what I was trying to say. That is what happens when your ego gets in the way of your information processing.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited June 18, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Mal H - The reason the flyer is thrown out is because the idea is to see how accurate the GUN is, not how accurate you are.[/quote]

I have to respectfully disagree, you were espousing that the groups were offhand, therefore all shots must be counted, no flyers allowed, none. Shooting offhand is a test of you and the gun. The doubt that earlier existed and still exists is that you can consistently shoot 5 shot groups into 1" offhand.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My stock Glock 32 hits 1 inch groups at 25 yards offhands in my hand. I am still not as accurate as the gun.[/quote] 6/14/00 12:08AM

If only you had added the words "occasionally" or "with a flyer or two", this thread would have been over long ago. You've got to admit, there's one thing about shooters - we sure are persistent sons-o'-guns, aren't we? :)

9BTW - the "Ayoob grouping method" has given us quite a few laughs here in the past.)
 
Well guys, I, for one am honored to be in the company of such great pistoleros. ;) The majority of semi auto non-fixed barrel handguns can't group 1" @25 yrds when shot from a machine rest.
 
Point well taken on all counts, Mal H, and thank you for being respectful about it, which seems to be beyond some people's ability.
I will continue to NOT count flyers (1 out of 5, and no more, is all I ever have allowed) when shooting offhand.
Of course, then there is the difference of what we are gauging. I was gauging the GUN and all along I was saying that the gun can shoot that well as long as the shooter does, so in that regard it would make sense to throw out a user-induced flyer. I never intended to and never did brag about how I shoot, I merely stated that the gun can be that accurate if the shooter is, and my Glocks have been that accurate for me. Other people chose to take offense that someone could shoot that well with a Glock and they made it a personal issue. I was just trying to say that the gun can be that accurate if you are. In measuring the GUN's accuracy, I think it is reasonable to not count a shot if I flinch it hard once in a while because I am the one throwing the shot, not the gun.
So, once again, I said that the GUN could shoot that well, and I still stand by that remark that I have been saying all along: the GUN can shoot that well, and anything less is user error. That is what I have been trying to convey all along. If you can't shoot a Glock to reasonably tight groups (at least under 2 inch groups at 25 yards) , then you are not shooting as well as the gun can be shot, and it is not fair to blame the gun for your poor shooting skills. The more accurate Glocks can and do shoot one inch at 25 yards if you can, and I have done it on more than one occasion so I know it can be done if the shooter does his part.


As far as the machine rest comments: a gun can be more accurate in human hands using sights than in a machie rest. The machine rest does not line up the sights for every shot and only gauges if the slide to frame fit and barrel fit line up the same for every shot. The machine rest blindly holds the handle and points the frame in a consistent direction, not the sights. When you use the sights and shoot the gun the way it is supposed to be shot, then you can accomodate for variation in slide return by using the sights for every shot. Machine rests fail to line up the sights if they are off from a slight variation between cycles and are a good test, but not a true test of the shootability of a gun.
I don't care how a gun shoots from a machine, or even from a bench, I care how it shoots in my hands and Glocks are extremely accurate in my hands as well as any other skilled Glock shooter.
If you can't shoot a Glock well, then don't blame the gun, blame yourself. Glocks have excellent triggers compared to many other guns out there and there is just no good excuse on why a Glock can't shoot very accuratly. Anything less is USER ERROR and you cannot blame the gun just because you are a lousy shot.


Short story to illustate my point: I sold one of my friends a Glock 30 of mine. He said it was not as accurate as his other guns so I went to the range with him. He was getting 4 inch groups at 7 yards. I took it from him, and drilled a sub-one-inch (one ragged hole) group on his target at 7 yards and told him the gun was very accurate, he just hadn't practiced with it. He only had a couple boxes of ammo through the gun and he already was blaming the gun for being inaccurate! A lot of this was brought on by the myth that Glocks are not accurate. After being inspired and seeing that the gun CAN shoot that well, he practiced some and now I could not pry that gun from him with a crowbar. He loves his Glock 30 and I see him print groups with it tighter than any other gun he has ever owned including the usual Sigs and Kimbers etc. He just had to realize that all the hype about Glocks only being "combat accurate" was a bunch of crap. When he saw me take his own own gun and drilled cloverleafs with it right on his own target in front of him, then it expanded his mind and he realized that the gun WAS accurate and he was the limiting factor. With this epiphany and inspiration, he practiced a bit and now he is an extremely good shot with the Glock, keeping right up with me at the range.

If your Glock is innacurate it is because you are inaccurate. Practice with it a little and you will be amazed that right out of the box it can keep up with the best of them.

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited June 18, 2000).]
 
Fair enough, and with that we can let this topic Requiescat In Pace, no need for a part 2 that I can think of.

So, Sling Shot, did you get the answer you were looking for? ;)
 
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