Teetering Tensions on the Mexico Border

[LAK]

ahenry

Just how do you propose getting rid of 10 million illegal aliens?

Easy; detain, fingerprint, photgraph, and as far as possible otherwise ID'd based on who they say they are, where they are from, born etc. Then an immediate bus trip to the Mexican border - or plane trip if it be another country or origin.

We do not need to "hold them". Rapid process centers that operate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 a year. They are brought in, processed as above, and immediately placed on a bus or plane out. It is that simple.

The only ones that need incarceration are repeat offenders. Same fingerprints show up in the system more than once - one year hard labor - back on the same bus. Third time - five years. Advertize all this well, let no one "mistakenly" wind up even serving one year.

The costs are minimal compared to the financial cost to the nation in terms of what these people get that they have no right to, and that I have paid for out of the money my government takes from me at source every single payday. These people are bankrupting hospitals and driving up the cost of such things for us, and driving the pay of many people down at the same time.

Finally, stop all financial aid and trade with Mexico if they do not get a handle on their own border area. Very simple. They will not outlast us in such a confrontation; the Mexican government would be forced to act whether they like it or not.

 

[wingman]

Finally, stop all financial aid and trade with Mexico if they do not get a handle on their own border area. Very simple. They will not outlast us in such a confrontation; the Mexican government would be forced to act whether they like it or not.

Bingo, rough times call for tough measures, but it will not happen because
the wealthy would lose money on the above..... Greed, Greed, we have
become a nation of greed and it is going to hurt us.

 

[KSFreeman]

LAK, you're not going to hold them? So, you'll hire an enormous number of administrative law judges to hear their deportation cases? How many BICE agents will you hire to round everyone up? What will you do with them until their hearings?

How much is this going to cost and where are you getting the money?

 

[wingman]

How much is this going to cost and where are you getting the money?

What is the cost of doing nothing.? We are now sending 350M to various
parts of the world, we "throw" money in all parts of the world, we continue
with open borders and we are told social security is in trouble, health care
becoming more expensive, cannot build enough schools, same with prisons.

Again, how do we afford not to act.????

America needs a new direction in our fast growing population world we need to understand that we cannot feed the world and provide jobs for all. Can we
help yes, but on a limited basis or "we" are going to fail.

 

[KSFreeman]

Doing nothing, the cost would be nothing. It costs nothing to turn off the welfare magnet that people here whine about and immigration adds to the economy.

How much would it cost to hire all those BICE agents, ALJs, detention centers, etc.?

 

[ahenry]

Easy; detain, fingerprint, photgraph, and as far as possible otherwise ID'd based on who they say they are, where they are from, born etc. Then an immediate bus trip to the Mexican border - or plane trip if it be another country or origin.

Don’t take offence at this, I’m not picking on you, but what you said is exactly why I asked this question; Your response shows just how little most people know about this issue. You can’t just “detain, fingerprint,…and…bus…to the…border”. Let me see if I can break down your solution and explain why it isn't really a solution at all.

First you must find an illegal alien. After the initial obvious illegal aliens are picked up, you have the vast majority left, and they aren’t so obvious. Most of those 10 million illegals have homes, jobs, cars, and even families. For many, you can’t pass them on the street and know that they are illegal. Some you can, but most you can’t. So, you have to go find these illegals, and that requires lots of legwork, but lets pretend that you can actually find 5 thousand a day. Once you’ve found them, you have to take them somewhere to process. That either requires processing centers to be built in the locations that don’t have them, or that the illegals have to be taken to a location where there is one. Once these thousands per day are processed, something has to be done with them. You suggest they be shipped to the Mexican border (lets just discuss the Mexican illegals since they pose enough of a problem without adding the other nations into the mix). First you have to prove that they are here illegally. After all, deporting a US citizen is pretty bad form. For these 10 million illegals already here, our current legal system requires a trial to do that, unless they waive their right to a trial. So now you have to have a judge, prosecutor, and public defenders since many won’t be able to provide for their own defense. Remember, we’re talking about doing this for 5 thousand separate people each and every day for five years in order to get all 10 million. Lets just assume though that somehow it was possible to process and prosecute 5 thousand people every day (of course that requires immigration judges, prosecutors and the like to work weekends now). Once you get this trial taken care of, what are you going to do with all their property? Most illegals in the interior have some sort of a residence, and means of transportation, are you suggesting the gov’t seize all their property? Do these illegals get to go pack up a few suitcases? What do you propose we do with the illegals that have citizen children? Split the family up? What about those with minor kids? Lets go ahead and gloss over that problem too for now. So you’ve now got 5 thousand people each day ready to send to Mexico with some of their belongings. Somehow you’ve got to get all these people from across the nation to some sort of centralized deportation center. That requires vans, buses and planes galore, as well as huge number of people to transport them from all across the nation. Once you have somehow managed to get them all together, you have to have another huge number of buses (or some sort of transportation vehicle) to get them to Mexico. Of course, if you dump 5 thousand people just on the other side of the border, they aren’t going to just sit there and stare at it, they’re going to try and cross again. Now you’ve added tens of thousands of people trying to cross each day to the existing numbers of people trying to cross, but lets ignore that problem too.

What I’m trying to explain, is that you can’t just “arrest, process and deport” millions of people from all across the nation. This isn’t a simple issue, and it can’t be treated as such. So I ask again, how do you suggest we remove 10 million illegal aliens from the United States in a practical time frame?

 

[moa]

Another question is how many "Abduls" posing as "Jose" that sneak across the border and we ignore? What is the potential price tag for that?

I have read estimates that the events of 09/11/2001 cost the US ecomomy $600 billion. That kind of money would have done well in financing an illegal alien dragnet.

And, oh yeah, it might save many thousands of lives in the process.

Our immigration laws need changing bigtime. Those laws were written as part of our INS "customer service" mentality. That has to change immediately. We do not need endless deportation hearings that 85% of the people abscond from because INS sent them a "run note" to appear for a hearing.

 

[Cal4D4]

The quantity of potential deportees is too staggering to believe. We are a capitalist society; let's put the $green$ in green card. If "they" make it thru our borders, let them line up for the green card. Need positive ID from country of origin. By mail, on line, any post office or DMV. Good for services like medical, dental, education and legal/incarceration fees if any. It can even work for public transport. Don't leave home without it. And don't get caught without it. Express lengthy incarceration followed by deportation. Data bank all costs incurred and bill back to country of origin at a full retail rate. Use all Federal powers to assure bill is collected. We supply goods and services to the world, why not to these trans border shoppers, too?
Ayn Rand would be proud!

 

[Charley]

We are talking about 2 separate issues: closing the border and what to do with illegals already in the country. In my opinion, there is no reason to discuss the second issue until the first one is taken care of. If we could be successful in closing the border (and we could be if we wanted), I would not be entirely opposed to amnesty "ideas" for some of those already here. We could give them a chance to come forward and apply, basd on having a stable job, no history of criminal activity, references, ect. If you choose not to come forward and at a later date are identified as illegal, then sorry, you lost your chance and you get deported. No, we will never account for all of the illegals already here, but without the steady stream coming in, we could at least get a handle on it. This is just an idea, I would be open to others...but first we have to close that border. Without that, all else is mute.

 

[LAK]

KSFreeman

LAK, you're not going to hold them? So, you'll hire an enormous number of administrative law judges to hear their deportation cases? How many BICE agents will you hire to round everyone up? What will you do with them until their hearings?
How much is this going to cost and where are you getting the money?

All I can say, is; they'd best get started - or the United States as we knew it, and even as we know it today - is going to go the way of it's motherland and several others.

The necessary manpower and money is there, as wingman stated. The alternative is not even worth considering. The politicians - all of them - who are not prepared to deal with this ought to get impeached for what they have done already. No one should be able to claim any local, state or federal benefit of any kind without proving their citizenship. Same to get a Drivers License or State identification card. They need to stop spending our money on socialist programs here, and stop sending it overseas altogether, cut off that international criminal cartel known as the "U.N", and decide where their loyalty lies.

AHenry,

Police agencies all over the country regularly come across these people. I know this; it not "my opinion". It is a fact.

Everytime I apply for a job, I must show a DL or State ID, fill out paperwork that verifies my citizenship or alien status, date, place of birth and SSAN, fill out and sign a tax-witholding form, etc. There are similar processes for many things. There are very few people in this country who can not prove where they were born. Some, yes; the records facility burned to the ground, etc. But most people can prove where they were born.

If every citizen in this country must identify him or herself to a peace officer on demand - or face criminal charges - "just in case", there is no reason why everyone can not be compelled to prove their citizenship status or (special cases aside) be expelled.

Recall the fervor over the "round up" in California. If this stuff happened daily, and all welfare etc was not available to anyone who could not prove their status, and real pressure was brought to bear on industry with heavy criminal penalties on employers who hire these people - the illegals themselves would flee the country in droves. There would be a mass exodus.

It has been clear for a long time that Comrade Blair is George Bush's senior partner; I didn't realize he was also subordinate to Vincente Fox (Fox?). If he was not, he could impose some meaningful sanctions on Mexico to persuade them to get a handle on their side of the border and make it clear to prospective illegals what they face if they try and come here.

In addition to the financial drain, the effect on wages and culture; we are "at war", remember? If George W Bush and his cronies are telling the truth, this is an essential part of the "War on terror". And they can apply all that "information" they are gathering and "sharing" on all of us to easily check the status of most anyone whose personal information is made available.

If they do not want to do this, and drastically cut down the number of potential "terrorists" already in, or entering the country, they are total frauds - and George Bush and his cronies are lying traitors. It is time he and his friends laid their cards on the table so everyone can see them.

What you are really doing in your arguements is making excuses for these people. We do have the resources, it is a matter of using them.

 

[ahenry]

Police agencies all over the country regularly come across these people. I know this; it not "my opinion". It is a fact.

Sure they do, I’m not questioning that in the slightest. What I’m trying to tell you is that after the initial “obvious ones”, the ones police interact with, the ones standing on a corner waiting for day work, the ones that are still near the border, etc, you will still have millions and millions to deal with. I’m sure that that initial wave could net you one or two million. Even with our shortened example of 10 million, you’re still left with 8 million that you will have a very difficult time locating.

Everytime I apply for a job, I must show a DL or State ID, fill out paperwork that verifies my citizenship or alien status,

Very true. Every day CBP Inspectors at various Ports of Entry arrest, or turn back, people with false documents. They don’t catch all of them. Some later get caught at Border Patrol checkpoints. Some still slip through the checkpoints. My point is that if people who deal with false documents on a daily basis are unable to pick up on all the false documents out there, how can an employer know if the drivers license or LAPR card is false? Or better yet, how can they know for sure that the card belongs to the person presenting it?

If every citizen in this country must identify him or herself to a peace officer on demand - or face criminal charges - "just in case", there is no reason why everyone can not be compelled to prove their citizenship status or (special cases aside) be expelled.

Are you suggesting that I carry around proof of my citizenship? Under all existing laws, a U.S. citizen is not required to carry proof. This smacks of dictatorial; “Your papers please!”, nonsense. This is America; the constitution specifically provides that we are to be secure in our persons, places, and effects.

Recall the fervor over the "round up" in California. If this stuff happened daily, and all welfare etc was not available to anyone who could not prove their status, and real pressure was brought to bear on industry with heavy criminal penalties on employers who hire these people - the illegals themselves would flee the country in droves. There would be a mass exodus.

I allowed for this in my examples. Remember, there are most likely 15 million illegals in the U.S., for our example we are dealing with 10 million. I allowed for 3 to 5 million to voluntarily leave.

What you are really doing in your arguements is making excuses for these people. We do have the resources, it is a matter of using them.

I’m not making excuses for anybody here, buddy. In several of my posts, I’ve specifically stated that this issue can be dealt with. I’m telling you, however, that you are not being realistic when you suggest that the way to remove 10 million illegals in any sort of practical time frame is to; “detain, fingerprint, photgraph”. I’m asking you to be practical here. Tell us all how you think 10 million illegals can be rounded up and sent home within 5 years. By not doing so, you are showing that you just want to bloviate about the issue not really understand and change it.

 

[wingman]

Are you suggesting that I carry around proof of my citizenship? Under all existing laws, a U.S. citizen is not required to carry proof. This smacks of dictatorial; “Your papers please!”, nonsense. This is America; the constitution specifically provides that we are to be secure in our persons, places, and effects.

Hang in AHenry the above will be here in the very near future due to the fact
we have not stopped Illegal immigration years ago. "This is America")

 

[Charley]

Good point, Wingman. Proper border control would have alliviated the need for such measures...now it will be blamed for them.

 

[moa]

I am still wondering why we have 70,000 military personnel stationed in Europe. Are we trying to keep the peace between Monaco and Luxembourg?. The bulk of those 70,000 could be put on the Mexican border and go a long way to shuting it down.

Of course, putting our military on the Mexican border might start an undeclared war with the Mexican military because it will interfer with the Mexican general's drug trafficing.

 

[LAK]

ahenry

... after the initial “obvious ones”, the ones police interact with, the ones standing on a corner waiting for day work, the ones that are still near the border, etc, you will still have millions and millions to deal with. I’m sure that that initial wave could net you one or two million. Even with our shortened example of 10 million, you’re still left with 8 million that you will have a very difficult time locating

It's been four years; that "one or two million" should have been picked up in the last few months of 2001. Certainly not all of these people are not going to be identified and found, and it is going to take some time to weed out even half of them. But once the word is out, and the benefits stop, and the pressure is on - many, perhaps most of these people are going to leave the country of their own accord. Most of the remainder can be weeded out over a few years.

Very true. Every day CBP Inspectors at various Ports of Entry arrest, or turn back, people with false documents. They don’t catch all of them. Some later get caught at Border Patrol checkpoints. Some still slip through the checkpoints. My point is that if people who deal with false documents on a daily basis are unable to pick up on all the false documents out there, how can an employer know if the drivers license or LAPR card is false? Or better yet, how can they know for sure that the card belongs to the person presenting it?

Right, and they have had the same problems in every country around the globe where documentation is required for anything. Nothing new here; they even have such probloems with people entering military bases with military ID cards for example. But there are two elements to checking such things for the puproses of getting a job etc; first the identification is copied and the data recorded - then appropriate agency check is conducted to verify the information.

Are you suggesting that I carry around proof of my citizenship? Under all existing laws, a U.S. citizen is not required to carry proof. This smacks of dictatorial; “Your papers please!”, nonsense. This is America; the constitution specifically provides that we are to be secure in our persons, places, and effects.

Oh yes; "this is America". But if I must show my papers on demand - to any peace officer for identification ("just in case") - my financial dealings to the IRS, and other assorted information and documents to various other agencies and private institutions, like banks etc - "Your papers please" indeed. Why shouldn't someone who is suspected of being an illegal alien be forced to cough up some proof of citizenship?

I allowed for this in my examples. Remember, there are most likely 15 million illegals in the U.S., for our example we are dealing with 10 million. I allowed for 3 to 5 million to voluntarily leave.

Many more than that will pack up than go if the heat is applied. These people are stealing my money from the public purse, and bankrupting private medical institutions. When that is cut off altogether, they will leave in droves.

I’m not making excuses for anybody here, buddy. In several of my posts, I’ve specifically stated that this issue can be dealt with. I’m telling you, however, that you are not being realistic when you suggest that the way to remove 10 million illegals in any sort of practical time frame is to; “detain, fingerprint, photgraph”. I’m asking you to be practical here. Tell us all how you think 10 million illegals can be rounded up and sent home within 5 years. By not doing so, you are showing that you just want to bloviate about the issue not really understand and change it.

You are making excuses, albeit I am sure not intentionally, for the inactions of the Bush administration and Congress for the last four years. It is realistic, because the alternatives and consequences are not. Waiting for another "event"; so that we can all be further controlled, and have the codification of our rights stripped away completely.

We are "at war", remember? "Life in America has changed!"

 

[Charley]

Chain Smoker,
I couldn't get the link to work. I did find thehighroad.org by typing it into my search. Looks like an interesting forum, but couldn't find the part you were wanting to show us. Interested, though. If you could give the title of the thread it was in, or another link. Thanks.

 

[longeyes]

The question is whether you want 15 million illegals here or 50 million--because sure as hell there will be 50 million if we keep telling ourselves that nothing practical can be done. What it comes down to is acknowledging the alternatives to the current Band-Aids and accepting the momentousness of allowing the current state of affairs to continue and expand.

We still have an opportunity to take the actions that can address the problem seriously. Those include enforcing penalties on employers, cutting off public assistance to illegals, barring citizenship for children of people here illegally, mandating counterproof identification, and using all available means, human and technological, to close down the borders. What would be the upshot of such actions? Dramatic, no doubt, but no more dramatic than what is going to happen if we don't begin to act forthrightly and with spine.

We are only postponing, and thereby exacerbating, the struggle. And struggle it will be.

 

[longeyes]

Answer: Stop playing the "compassion" game and re-discover the iron fist. That's what we owe OURSELVES as compassion. Take away the carrot, entirely, and see what happens. You'll see a self-instigated migration south, back home, in the millions, when the monies are cut off definitively and draamtically. As for the rest, well, let's imagine five million souls huddled on the border or in ghettos around the U.S.? What then? I guess that will test our will to survive or to endure the criticisms of unctuous nations around the globe that think they know better than we what our future should be. I think you either take them in, with all that implies, or you understand what it means to become steel. Is the American republic worth preserving? That will be our test.

"Nothing wrong with a second language. The language of instruction in much of my state was German until 1917. No one whimpered and wrung their hands over the use of German in schools until then. Why do you think that is?"

There's plenty wrong with a second language. The seminal documents of America are in English. Our governmental affairs are conducted, officially, in English. Our cultural glue is English. Sure, we can learn second or third languages to facilitate social intercouse or for fun or profit, but if we want to avoid Balkanizing America we are going to need to take a firm position on English as our native tongue and protect it. Why we are pandering to recent immigrants by allowing them to vote in foreign languages when English is mandated for citizenship is a question that needs to be openly debated and discussed. Face it, there are lots of folks who want America weakened and fragmented.

 

[moa]

A couple remarks about Mexico. Since the end of WWII the population of the US doubled. In the same period the population in Mexico tripled.

About one million Mexicans each year try to enter the Mexican job market, which there is not much of. There is little opportunity in Mexico, especially for uneducated or poorly educated Mexicans.

The natural result is the Mexicans pour into the US by the millions. Vincente Fox, president of Mexico, stumped that he would fix the blatant ecomonic and social problems in Mexico, but he has been very unsuccessful. The ruling elite like things just the way the are and nothing will change. We can expect Mexico to keep dumping major portions of its unwanted and unneeded population on the US.

This Mexican problem will not fix itself. And, lame efforts to fix it on our side of the border will not fix the problem.

Remember that the US government is currently $40 trillion dollars in debt, both current debt and future obligations. A day may come when we cannot afford to fix any major problem because we are busted out with an estimated $100,000 in Federal debt for every citizen of America.

 

[longeyes]

And let's not forget the "totalization" plan quietly announced last year by the Social Security pundits. From here it looks like a welfare plan for Mexico, financed by the American taxpayer. Don't ask me who is going to pay for this, or how.