Teacher Left Gun in Restroom
- Thread starter Double Naught Spy
- Start date
Evan Thomas
Inactive
This didn't happen at school. It's generally a good plan to read the article in the OP before commenting.danco said:
From the linked article:
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Not at all; but if you have permission to be armed in a school and a shooting happens, people are going to ask "You had a gun. Why weren't you trying to save my child's life?"
I support teachers having the choice to be armed; but they do need to understand that if they have to use it in an active shooter situation, every choice made is going to be armchair quarterbacked.
turkeestalker
New member
^^^
That's the truth.
That's the truth.
I wouldn't be too concerned about that, at least not because of this incident.
It didn't happen at the school. It happened at the men's restroom on the Deerfield Beach Pier. On a Sunday. That would be "during the weekend", not "over the weekend". Those phrases have different meanings and are not identical.
The linked report from the Miami Herald did not state the amount of time that passed between the gun being left, and being recovered. We are left to assume it was a long time, but that is an assumption, and doesn't seem correct, considering the report also says that the teacher was able to wrestle the gun away from the homeless drunk, after the drunk had fired a round.
Again, the report does not have enough details to be certain how much time passed, but I can't imagine it was very long. It MIGHT be that the drunk was already in the restroom, and entered the stall right after the teacher left it. We don't know where the teacher was when the gun was fired. We don't know if he was in the restroom washing his hands, or 5 blocks away down the beach, or whether he was struggling with the drunk to get the gun away from him when it fired. The news report about the incident doesn't tell us these (somewhat) important details. The report did identify the gun, however, as a Glock...
Numerous valid points about school safety have been made in this thread, so far, and a few that aren't quite "on the mark".
The biggest one, is the continued use of the media's phrase "arming teachers". That phrase is shorter and easier to say than "allowing teachers to be armed", so I get why they use it in that regard. But the two phrases do not mean the same thing. Not that the media cares...
"Arming teachers" means issuing them arms. PROVIDING them with weapons. This is not what anyone I've heard proposes to do. All that is proposed and called "arming teachers" by the press is allowing teachers the legal right to have their own, personal arms at work with them. NOT the same thing as issuing them an AR or any other weapon at the start of the school day.
Many people say "hire more cops, put them at the schools". Which might work, but the cost is a huge factor against that.
Now, I realize that anything we do about the situation is going to involve costs we currently aren't paying. And people are not going to want to pay anything more than they already do, if possible. So, what's the answer? Is there even one?? Would you be ok with hiring more cops (and putting them at schools) if it meant your taxes went up $25? How about if your taxes went up $3000??? Makes quite a difference, I think.
I have a suggestion that I haven't seen anyone else mention. Instead of hiring more cops why not just move the cops we already have???
CO-Locate a police precinct station /sheriff substation, etc on school grounds. Not the jail, or holding cells, but dispatchers, offices, locker rooms, etc. That way there are always some officers present, and they will be coming and going at random, unpredictable times (other than shift changes), so a potential mass killer has no way of knowing how many cops will be right there to respond, only that there will always be someone.
Yes, it would be a massive project, and no, it would NOT be cheap, but it would be a one time expense.
Other suggestions have varying degrees of merit. There is no free lunch.
I think its a poor idea to try to make teachers into SWAT responders. Few teachers are physically suited, and fewer still are mentally suited for that job. that is a burden they should not be expected to take on, and should never be required to.
Identifying "raid" jackets for teachers, so responding police don't shoot them mistakenly sounds like a good idea, but is it, really?? What happens when the killer(s) are wearing the same garb??
I would point out the Aurora Co movie theater killings, where the murder wore nearly exactly the same dress as the responding cops, and only failed to escape because he didn't try to. He hung around outside the theater watching "the show", and it wasn't until one astute officer recognized that while the rest of his gear matched, his gas mask was different from the ones the rest of the cops had. When that officer went to ask him about that, he confessed to being the shooter, and surrendered.
Impersonating the police is not a new thing, and getting your hands on raid jackets and other police equipment is not an insurmountable task. again, having teachers wear "staff" jackets or something like that MAY be a benefit, but where does that benefit go if the killer wears the same thing???
Stored arms (AR??) with ammo for emergency use also sound like a good idea, like fire extinguishers, right?
Except fire extinguishers don't have much use, other than fighting fires, so street demand for them is pretty low. AR rifles and ammo (or any gun, really) even stored in "secure alarmed containers" are a juicy, tempting target, and even with alarms, unless you have officers right there, guarding them, some of them WILL be stolen. Even a couple of minutes in response time could allow a gang to get away with one, or three, etc. Very bad PR, if that happens, now you are "arming criminals"!!!!
There's no easy way out, there's nothing that will work 100% of the time, nothing will deter a person who plans to die anyway. I'd like to think some horrific punishment (not allowed by modern law) MIGHT stop some people from committing these mass killings, but I recognize the only real deterrent effect being flogged to death in the public square (for example) would have is just to further deter the killers from being taken alive.
I don't know what will work, I don't know for certain that there is anything that will work, but I do know that taking things away from people who didn't commit any crime has zero effect on the people who do commit crimes.
Demanding that your neighbor's dog has to be locked in the house, all the time, because the wolf ate your sheep doesn't help anyone, except the wolf...
Double Naught Spy
New member
I appreciate your well intended correction, but the good folks at Merriam-Webster differ considerably from your view.
http://learnersdictionary.com/qa/Over-the-weekend-on-the-weekend-at-the-weekend
I see your, and their point. I admit I was wrong to categorically state the phrases had differences, were not identical and implied that this was always the case. I apologize for that error. Thank you for pointing it out.
I can clearly see how, in certain contexts they are meant to convey the exact same ideas.
However, I hold that in other contexts, they convey (by implication) somewhat different ideas.
He left his gun in the bathroom during the weekend.
He left his gun in the bathroom over the weekend.
The grammar teacher may grade both as allowed and acceptable (and I didn't allow for that, so on that, my bad,,
)but to me they imply different things, about the duration of the gun's stay in the bathroom. Maybe that's just me, reading context into things, because of the way I speak, but in this case, "over" to me, implies longer duration than "during".
Sorry for the thread drift, I stepped in it, will try not to step in that same place again.
We all know, there are people who should never handle a firearm. I see certain people at the local range, and immediately leave. I prefer to be alone when I instruct the grandkids. Anyway, my local range is not a distance shooting range. I go to an abandoned strip mine & have a good 2,000 yards.
Money is only a factor when it's a factor.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-an...ts-white-and-the-reasons-why-are-pretty-cool/
In the race to combat climate change, the city of Los Angeles is employing a surprising new tactic -- covering its streets in a grayish-white coating known as CoolSeal. It's sprayed onto the roadway with trucks, then spread across the surface with squeegees. However, its impact extends far beyond the edge of the pavement ...
CoolSeal, which is made by a company called GuardTop, helps to reflect solar rays off asphalt so that less heat is actually absorbed ...
The innovative sealcoat is admittedly very pricey, with L.A. reportedly footing a $40,000 bill for every mile it "paints." But advocates say its benefits may just be priceless.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-budget-report-20170317-story.html
L.A. budget report warns of $224-million deficit next year
Double Naught Spy
New member
I am sure you were trying to make some sort of point, but I don't see what it is. Money is ALWAYS a factor when it comes to paying for things like police protection. LA may be operating in a deficit for now, but that cannot continue as places like Detroit have figured out, cutting back on their police protection in the face of ongoing financial issues.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/08/detroit_loses_1400_police_offi.html
There are a few problems with armed guards. If they were private armed guards, they were probably turned down by law enforcement for different reasons and might not be a good choice to guard children. If it were law enforcement personnel, it would be terribly boring for them and they might feel (or it would be) punishment for not doing their normal law enforcement duties well. They would be a little like an armed crossing guard.
FWIW, this go-round I've noticed the anti-gun folk on many occasions have stated their proposals (a ban of the AR-15 or a limit on magazine capacity) wouldn't stop ALL shootings (so much for #neveragain) but they would reduce the number and severity of mass shootings.
(I disagree but that is not my point for this post.)
If the anti-gun forces are admitting their proposals won't stop ALL the shootings then we MUST be allowed to have the same standards! That is, NOTHING is going to be fool proof!
1. Yes an armed guard in school might not engage but the idea is still sound and could be tried.
2. Most teachers might not want to carry but let's allow the ones that WANT to carry get the training and be allowed to carry a gun in school.
3. An armed guard or a teacher might be irresponsible. Let's deal with that when it happens.
We HAD this debate about arming airline pilots. And there WAS an incident where a pilot had a negligent discharge. And they dealt with that. And the program continues and while it is NOT foolproof it is better than not having the pilots armed.
(I disagree but that is not my point for this post.)
If the anti-gun forces are admitting their proposals won't stop ALL the shootings then we MUST be allowed to have the same standards! That is, NOTHING is going to be fool proof!
1. Yes an armed guard in school might not engage but the idea is still sound and could be tried.
2. Most teachers might not want to carry but let's allow the ones that WANT to carry get the training and be allowed to carry a gun in school.
3. An armed guard or a teacher might be irresponsible. Let's deal with that when it happens.
We HAD this debate about arming airline pilots. And there WAS an incident where a pilot had a negligent discharge. And they dealt with that. And the program continues and while it is NOT foolproof it is better than not having the pilots armed.
And its also not on the agenda of the adherents to discuss the number of murders, suicides and ND killings. I think if we add it up the odds are thousand to 1 that someone with a gun saves a situation (used or not)
If you look at the consequences of armed police (necessary) vs the number of times they deploy lethal force and kill or injure someone who is totally innocent ?
These are people who have some degree of training and often a lot.
Arm teachers and you will find that most of them (even if they will take a gun) can't handle it normally let alone a crisis situation.
Ever watch the auto series on Audi and the "unintended" acceleration? Very few cars have the torque to overcome full brakes . Audi is not one of those.
Call it the law of unintended consequences.
I have a close association with Aviation. A vocal minority of pilots wanted to be armed after 9/11. If you follow aviation incidents you would know you are lucky they can fly the airplane and some of the worst crashes are totally against training).
Anyway they got it, you had to pass training, requirement for a lock box in the cockpit as I recall.
With locked doors you don't need it and even an intrusions hoping you can deploy a gun and hit the person and not shoot up the airplane or your fellow pilot of flight crew?
On the other hand, FedEx when they had a suicide in the cockpit of an (DC-10 or MD-11) did some serious gyrations and took the guy off his feet (he did servery injure to one crew member)
Ergo, gt a solid door and no one is going to be standing up when the gyrations start, trust me, its a real challenge when you are strapped in to maintain control in what they call "unusual attitudes training" .
How many incidents have armed pilots handled?
How many armed pilots are there per all pilots?
As a pilot I have to vehemently disagree, as one that has a locked door between you and any issue, taking a gun out of a lock box, shooting over your shoulder at a perp?
I could not disagree more.
They also did not deal with the gun issue, they may have taken it away from him, nothing changed.
"...Teacher Left Gun in Restroom..." Cops have been known to do the same thing. Or worse. I don't see anywhere what and how much firearms training this teacher got. Assuming he volunteered and was just given the firearm.
"...cost is a huge factor against that..." Moreso in some places. Toronto, Canada's police budget is over a billion Cdn annually. Most going towards the $100 grand plus per annum pay roll.
"...Certified Law Enforcement Education..." Certified by who? Up here, it'd be unelected Provincial civil servants who know nothing about anything.
"...Looks like it didn’t take long for the “armed good guy” theory of school safety to be debunked..." A decidedly anti-firearm ownership article by the Miami Herald.
"...cost is a huge factor against that..." Moreso in some places. Toronto, Canada's police budget is over a billion Cdn annually. Most going towards the $100 grand plus per annum pay roll.
"...Certified Law Enforcement Education..." Certified by who? Up here, it'd be unelected Provincial civil servants who know nothing about anything.
"...Looks like it didn’t take long for the “armed good guy” theory of school safety to be debunked..." A decidedly anti-firearm ownership article by the Miami Herald.
The reality is that there will be issues and very likely in the wide spectrum of all armed guards/teachers across the country, vs ND, lost, stolen and mistakes in shooting that we see the police have all the time.
I saw what an armed good guy did once, shot the guy once, could not continue. Murder continued. Most likely outcome, unless well trained, not beneficial to bad.
I saw what an armed good guy did once, shot the guy once, could not continue. Murder continued. Most likely outcome, unless well trained, not beneficial to bad.
Yep. And when that happens (and no one is hurt) its a small thing in the national news, if it even makes the national news at all. Its usually not that big news in the local press, but this case is different.
The "armed teacher" works at the school where there was a mass killing barely two months ago. THAT makes it "news".
Quick solution. Make all Schools "NOT" a gun free zone. Then let the standards fall where they land. Cops/armed trained parents/armed teachers, Guards? Whatever.
The toilet gun left, the story. Way back when, when Toronto Cops carried Revolvers. Plainclothes Officer, left his duty snub nose on toilet top! BANG! Just as he rushed back in, the new male visitor, pointed it at the toilet, pulled the trigger "To see if it was real!"
Oh yes!
I very rarely use public toilets, except the standing area! But if I do, Glock 19 goes in underpants!
The toilet gun left, the story. Way back when, when Toronto Cops carried Revolvers. Plainclothes Officer, left his duty snub nose on toilet top! BANG! Just as he rushed back in, the new male visitor, pointed it at the toilet, pulled the trigger "To see if it was real!"
Oh yes!
I very rarely use public toilets, except the standing area! But if I do, Glock 19 goes in underpants!